CGA opposes changes to admissions system

The Coast Guard has far more than 200 ensigns each year. CGA grads make up about 45% of the Coast Guard officer corps. So, you have around 55% from other commissioning sources.


There are ways to reduce the force, other than accepting/graduating less cadets/recruits.
 
The Coast Guard has far more than 200 ensigns each year.

My quoted number of ensigns needed each year is the number only from the Coast Guard Academy.

Of course there are other commissioning sources, but this is a Coast Guard Academy forum. :thumb:
 
.... I think Capt's points were right on. 500 MOC's, for 265 spots? How's that going to be fair?

AS luigi states.. there are about 55 CGA Scholars at prep school right now.. so there are only 210 appointments to be given out (or a few more IF all 55 do not get their pending appointments)....

ALOT of work for only 210 openings.. BUT remember the CGA already sent out letters to almost 50 kids.. SO REALLY only about a 150 left right now..



** disclaimer theses are just rough numbers....
 
At our Congressional Event in early November we were informed of 195 slots after taking into account LOAs, etc.
Remember, more than 195 offers will go out to compensate for those who are multi-SA applicants or just plain change their minds.
 
If you want an example of what happens when politics gets mixed with college admissions, look no further than the University of Illinois. Students who did not have the scores to gain admission to U of I were admitted if the local politician called in a favor. Requiring a Congressional nomination will mean, in some cases, children of "connected" parents will get the nod while better qualified kids are left behind.
 
....you can't force a kid in Nebraska or Iowa or Utah or anywhere to apply to USCGA. They've got to want it in their heart and soul and have a real interest in the mission on the CG.

How do some MOC's end up with "15" appointments in on year at one SA?
There is horse trading that goes on for sure between MOC's and the lobbying crowd. So it's definitely NOT about diversity, it's about patronage as was stated before. USCGA and Admiral Allen, fight to keep USCGA the way it is!!!

I think Capt's points were right on. 500 MOC's, for 265 spots? How's that going to be fair?

Eagle:

I can't speak for other Academies but as far as USMMA goes no "horse trading" is possible nor does it occur in this day and age. The way nominations go for KP is that each MOC nominates up to 10, those nominees compete first for the slots allotted to their state which is less than the number of MOC's. Any nominee not getting admitted on this basis is then placed in a national pool.

Any unused slots from states not using their full allotment of available slots are then filled on a competitive basis from candidates in the national pool.

I am not certain but understood that aside from their principle nominees, selection for slots at other Academies is done in a fashion similar to the national pool process that KP goes through.

Further, as far as my experience has been in the four states we've resided in Pennsylvania, Florida, New York and now Virginia, every MOC's process I've come in contact with as an Admissions Field Rep for KP has had a fairly objective process that took all the same things I believe the Academies do when looking at applicants to decide who they should give nominations to. What I've noticed here in VA is that the way we have some Congressional Districts that get more appointees into any given year is by having an extremely solid and highly qualified group of Nominees. Here that usually is because of the large number of interested applicants. For example, the Senators here in VA routinely get 300+ people looking for nominations; each Congressman here in Northern VA routinely gets 100+ people requesting nominations. As you would expect that usually means that the 10 nominees they submit tend to be highly qualified. Further it's not unusual for a young man or woman to seek a nomination for a couple of years.

I only offer these points to directly address one thing you point out that I believe is incorrect and to address one thing you ask:

1) I don't believe that with rare exception in this day and age Service Academy nominations are at all about patronage. From first hand experience across multiple years, I can state all my first hand experience has shown me that every MOC I've seen seeks to nominate the most qualified candidates that are seeking a nomination and they do so using a well understood and transparent process.

2) It's 535 MOCs for ~300 spots at USMMA and that works just final and has done so for some time; additionally at USMA, USNA and USAFA it's 535 MOC + the Vice President for ~1200 spots and that's done fairly.

Why do you feel adding an additional step, requiring a prospective student to get a nomination prior to or in addition to being selected by the Academy's admissions staff review would make the process in any way inherently "unfair"?

That said I agree with those who point out the only kind of diversity such a change would likely encourage is geographical diversity and as you point out like USMMA and USNA, it's very likely that competition for such slots and nominations for USCGA would be strongest in coastal states and regions, ao what it would accomplish is IMO questionable. That said last time I looked USCGA operates as part of the USCG, which in peacetime operates under the auspices of the US DHS, which gets their money on an annual basis from Congress. That of course means any member of Congress, particularly a member on the committee which provides the funding for those governmental entities can insert many interesting things into appropriations and authorization bills to force things to happen they care about.
 
That of course means any member of Congress, particularly a member on the committee which provides the funding for those governmental entities can insert many interesting things into appropriations and authorization bills to force things to happen they care about.

And that's how things get broken!

Like ethanol credits in a healthcare bill. Rep. Cummins is forcing the issue although not all Congressmen are on board, even in his own party.
 
mnolan hits on some very good points, I hope everyone picked up on them. :thumb:

I'm still trying to figure out how a "USMMA" system of nominations, allocating appointments proportionally based on US Census (19 appointments for California, 10 for Florida, 5 for Maryland, 1 for North Dakota, 2 for Idaho, etc) is going to increase the qualified applicant pool and increase the diversity Congressman Cummings seeks.

:cool:

Luigi:

re how does the system increase the qualified applicant pool and increase the diversity Congressman Cummings seeks - assuming that is racial and ethnic diversity the answer is indeed obvious to me having been involved with USMMA for 30+ years - it doesn't. Why doesn't it - two simple reasons: 1) it's about geographic diversity as to where the students come from; and 2) the hard part about promoting racial, ethnic and gender diversity for all SA's is the curricula and focus which is reasonably science, engineering and math heavy and that drives certain biases, though that is finally seeming to change some.

That said I agree with you, this seems like something that will likely happen. One possible good thing that might come out of it is it gives USCGA Alums who will no doubt become part of more MOC's Nomination Review Boards to interact with those members and point out funding needs, etc. as long of course they are not on active duty...:wink:
 
That said I agree with you, this seems like something that will likely happen. One possible good thing that might come out of it is it gives USCGA Alums who will no doubt become part of more MOC's Nomination Review Boards to interact with those members and point out funding needs, etc. as long of course they are not on active duty...:wink:

See now Jasperdog, you're seeing the bright side of things too. Let Congress get their hands on a 133 year process that has worked fine without their input BUT get some CGA Alums to use their influence.
 
And that's how things get broken!

Like ethanol credits in a health care bill. Rep. Cummings is forcing the issue although not all Congressmen are on board, even in his own party.

He doesn't need "all" Congressmen to be on board nor does he need, or will he likely have everyone in his party on board. That said he is the Committee Chairman and the staff for the majority have written the appropriate language. Additionally as far as I know the House bill passed and is now in conference with the Senate. It's pretty likely that with all the issues the key Conference Committee members care about, this not being very high on their list, this will happen.

The worst thing IMO is for those to futilely fight the inevitable rather then to try and influence it. I would say based on the language posted here, though not having seen the final language, because of the size difference and numbers you are talking about with USCGA, language modeled so the system is more like USMMA vice USMA/USNA & USAFA with regard to the candidate nominating process would be a lot easier for the USCGA Admissions staff to deal with.

In any case I would tell you I really don't think a lot of the fears listed here are an issue. Sure occasionally, a kid who can't cut it gets a principle nomination but so to do kids who come through the current process.

Somebody earlier for example wrote they knew a principle nominee had gotten that nomination by working an internship at a Congressman's office. If everyone knows that can help and a nomination is part of the process what's the issue with that? Further, don't you think that someone who does that, and has good grades, etc. is likely to have the high moral character we all want among the ranks of our peers? One of the things that making the whole process more objective, both at SA's that require nominations and USCGE where currently there is no such requirement, has done is create opportunities for people who do not have that same high moral fiber, et we all want. Look at some of the recent issues and i won't rip off scabs we all have by enumerating those sorts of issues over the past 20 years.
 
This has actually come up as a sticking point. So, I don't think it's "in there" for good.

I cannot see the benefits of including the nomination process. Doesn't mean I don't understand the nomination process, I had to do it for my USNA and USMMA nominations, however, was it worth anything? No. It's congressional oversight, plain and simple. To believe it's anything else, or that the will of a politician can, in some way, produce selected cadets/midshipmen with higher moral character is laughable at best. The more you can separate a body of politicians that enjoys 9% trust of the population, the better off the military looks.


There is no benefit, not in diversity, not in moral character. You will limit the number of coastal applicants because of nominations. That doesn't mean you will have MORE applicants from inland. It doesn't mean you will have better applicants from inland states. In effect, you will "thin" the quality of the application process, and applicants will no longer compete fully on their own merits, but under a quota system.
 
There is no benefit, not in diversity, not in moral character. You will limit the number of coastal applicants because of nominations. That doesn't mean you will have MORE applicants from inland. It doesn't mean you will have better applicants from inland states. In effect, you will "thin" the quality of the application process, and applicants will no longer compete fully on their own merits, but under a quota system.

Soo young yet so knowledgeable :)
 
While king crab fishing off the coast of Alaska, you're forced to abandon ship and you find yourself adrift in a lifeboat in freezing temperatures, 40 knot winds, and 12' waves. A CG rescue force is enroute. Do you want a team led by the best qualified officers to save your life, or are you more interested in the team's diversity?
 
While king crab fishing off the coast of Alaska, you're forced to abandon ship and you find yourself adrift in a lifeboat in freezing temperatures, 40 knot winds, and 12' waves. A CG rescue force is enroute. Do you want a team led by the best qualified officers to save your life, or are you more interested in the team's diversity?

KUDOS!! :thumb: I'LL LEAVE IT AT THAT!
 
Do you want a team led by the best qualified officers to save your life, or are you more interested in the team's diversity?
How do you get the *best qualified*?
Can they only come from white middle class or can they come from inner city Baltimore - where kids are working hard and encouraged to take science and math do better than their parents did?
 
How do you get the *best qualified*?
Can they only come from white middle class or can they come from inner city Baltimore - where kids are working hard and encouraged to take science and math do better than their parents did?

Why no JAM. You get the BEST QUALIFIED by training, not basing selection on race. You get that cross section by ALLOWING applicants to FULLY compete instead of competing in a Congressional/State/District "QUOTA".

Science would be a very important part of flight school as well.

I think you just made the point AGAINST congressional nominations. Yes, allow them to compete for selection based on their merits and not on the color of their skin, or the whims of a politician.
 
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