Change of heart

Not sure what is meant by the discussion "ratcheting up" or the idea that it's somehow off the OPs point. Rather it is addressing a specific point made about the general question, i.e. ...
Pima said:
DS was one of them that had a change of heart. For him it was based on a multitude of reasons, not just one. They were:

1. The curriculum offered.
~~~ He really wanted to major in govt and politics. The college he selected had a very strong program, including internships on the Hill in DC. ...
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This is stated as fact, not opinion, and as such, could not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and as several pursuant posters continued in this misinformation that somehow Gtown or Hopkins or wherever were somehow stronger politics/gov't program. That simply is not factual but rather merely an opinion. And mine is same. But the significant issue here and this is my final thought on this ... there simply is no basis for stating such.

Now, we are all in agreement that USNA requires more math, science, engineering than a Gtown BA degree would. No disagreements. But none persisted in suggesting such.

My point is that I wanted to be sure that no matter what the ensuing discussion, the suggestion that USNA was not one of, and perhaps THE best politics/govt UNDERGRAD program (which includes international exposures, Hill and other uniquely key government internships, professorial expertise AND total accountability for teaching and advising, seminars, special lectures, and special lecturers, and spectacular senior honors and capstone opportunities ...) merits a challenge with specific illustrations and examples that go beyond ... rankings. Sorry if my point and case have been unclear. I hope the point that merited challenging is not.

While I'd not debate this on virtually any other major available ... poli sci is unique. As noted, becoming a successful senior officer will require a virtual mastery of the subject and its practice, as an Adm. Mullen's appointment is as much and more that than military expertise.
 
Whistle Pig said:
This is stated as fact, not opinion, and as such, could not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and as several pursuant posters continued in this misinformation that somehow Gtown or Hopkins or wherever were somehow stronger politics/gov't program. That simply is not factual but rather merely an opinion. And mine is same. But the significant issue here and this is my final thought on this ... there simply is no basis for stating such.
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The basis is simple - USNA does not appear as a top political science program in any list/ranking/rating/poll, etc. Not just USNW. I'm not an expert in rating college poli sci programs so I defer to the experts on this one. I respect your opinion but so far it is just your opinion provided.
 
Time out. The question stated was not about poli sci majors, it was about change of heart. Yes, I opened the door, using our DS as an example. As I stated the major was just one part in the decision.

We are here for the OP, not to debate why my DS believed the college he selected had a stronger program in his opinion regarding poli sci/govt.

That is why I said the conversation is being ratcheted up. It appears you are more intent on debating than answering why a candidate may go through the process and determine to go a different route.

You keep stating the USNA has a great poli sci program. I have acknowledged that they do. I am not arguing that fact. I am saying for our DS who opted ROTC over an SA it was about the program at his college, AND the belief he could have the best of both worlds in college.

For DS he wanted that chance to intern on the hill, again since he 9, that was one of goals. He is the son of an AFROTC O5 who flew fighters for 20 yrs. He understood the risks of opting ROTC over AFA career wise, yet in the end that program at his college; which has a strong ROTC unit was worth the risk. It wasn't the career field that motivated him to serve, by taking ROTC over AFA he realized his chances greatly decreased. He also understood that as a non-tech major it was reduced even further. He was willing to serve in any position given to him. He decided that for just a small fragment of his life he wanted that chance to work on the hill, and if he had the opportunity as an ROTC cadet in college it was worth it to him.

That's what you are missing here. It is about the small fragments that impact these kids, and trying to settle it out regarding the big picture.

I am not going to lie, it was a hard road to hoe for him as a non-tech major to get a UPT slot, but he did it. If a career field is your number one desire ROTC over an SA is different regarding chances.

Please, let's agree to acknowledge that an SA education is on par to an Ivy. Let's agree that it is a personal decision regarding their perceptions involving academic programs.
 
Aiki ... you got it. And you've bought it. I choose to defer to the obvious evidence, and I realize many people use this as their validator in this. It is uniquely situated and operated in this field, unlike any other beyond perhaps naval arch. Simply too many requirements disallowing much depth in any field beyond politics.

I'd venture that it is deemed a stellar engineering program not on the basis of "the program" but on the basis of its history as an "engineering" school and more so ... producing large numbers of engineers who are stellar people and even better employees.

btw, the contention that USNA poli sci (and perhaps other "bull" majors or "programs") sorta flies in the face of your argument. What was USNA's most recent ranking as a "national liberal arts college"? I don't believe they were talking about the Academy's programs in engineering, naval arch, oceanography, etc. none of which could be deemed "liberal arts".

The point is these rankings are absolutely silly, especially when it comes to assessing academic programs at Service Academies. But they do 2 things ... assuage egoes and sell magazines and reference volumes. A recent, huge industry built upon persons persuaded of their value.

Pima, you seem to be missing the point you interjected, rightly so. Giving a specific example and reason for change of mind. Even though we would substantially disagree on the assumption you indicated was partial basis for a decision. But in the end, this forum is to communicate information specifically about USNA. Allowing what I believe was gross misinformation to go risks implicitly lending approval or agreement to your statement. I think this is highly pertinent to both the general purpose and this specific thread.
 
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And I agree with you 1001% when you say:

Pima said:
Yet, not everybody is meant to live the military life at 18.
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That's true. It may be a cliché but it's so very true - as far as service academies go, "They're not for everybody."

Although it may be true that there are many required technical courses; nonetheless, the Naval Academy seems pretty popular amongst those with more of a liberal arts leaning. There's got to be a reason for that, I would think.

U.S. Naval Academy the most popular liberal arts college, rankings say

Our DS is unique, he had never lived his life as a "civilian" since birth. He wanted this time to be a kid with limited ties to the military.
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You don't have to convince me.

All I can say is this: Nobody ever regretted graduating from the Naval Academy. (Well, nobody I know of, at least.)

Most of the regrets I've heard with regards to the Naval Academy have been ...
"I wish I had never quit."
"I wish I had studied harder."
"I wish I had accepted my appointment."
 
Pima,

I totally understand where your DS is coming from, he wanted to experience the civilian world since he was an AF kid for 18 years.

As for the debate over political science and liberal arts majors, the funny thing is, I'm going to be a poli si major. Even though it was a little bit off topic from the original question, the info was very helpful. I'll post another thread about liberal arts and the course work required. I find it amusing how things get off topic so quickly on this forum!
 
Memphis9489 said:
Most of the regrets I've heard with regards to the Naval Academy have been ...
"I wish I had never quit."
"I wish I had studied harder."
"I wish I had accepted my appointment."
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Again, I agree 1001% with you. Once there it does become those sayings.

As I stated, for a short second, even our DS at college questioned why he walked away. It lasted a second, okay a few weeks, but 2-3 weeks over 4 yrs is to me a short second.

IMPO, it is also important to understand that those who do have a change of heart also question at one point if they choose wisely. That is life. It is what you do when you question yourself that matters most. Do you pick up your toys and leave?

Look, opting SA or ROTC is not a prison sentence with no option for early release/parole. If you have a change of heart and go ROTC, but realize you made a mistake, you can re-apply. If you go USNA and decide it isn't for you, you can leave and go ROTC.

We all know that 99% of SA candidates apply for ROTC. I would strongly suggest to do a campus visit and talk the command. I say this not only to get a grasp on their program, but to also realize that the SA's are highly competitive on par with Ivies regarding acceptance rate and you need to have a Plan B.

DS had a number 3 reason why he felt comfortable in his choice.

He visited the unit. He informed them it was between the AFA and their college. The CC stated to him, if in the fall he decided he made a mistake, he would personally put him up for an ROTC nom. This gave comfort and reassurance to DS + us, that if he decided he made an error, he could rectify it. The CC held true to his word, approached DS in Sept., and said do you want to go? DS said no.

I do agree with Whistle that we need to put the facts out there. The fact is every SA has an acceptance rate in the teens statistically regardless of your major. SA's are not colleges or ROTC scholarships where majors are a factor in the decision making process.

The best we can do and say to the OP, is to investigate the options, than investigate more, and when you believe you are done investigating, investigate once more.

When I say this is IVY with a military leadership education 24/7, that is what it is. Even probably harder to get in because if you score a 2380 on the SAT, you have a strong shot at an IVY, not necessarily true for the SA candidate, since they have the WCS, which includes the CFA and ECs.

I believe the last stats I read for the USNA was they had @16-17K open files, out of that @1600 get an appointment. I also think I read the avg SAT hovered in the high 1300's, @1380-90 out of 1600. Plus, overall, they have some insane stats regarding % top 5%, Valedictorian, NHS, Sports, BSA/GSA, etc.

OP getting the nom is only a small part, an important part, but still small. I say that because you need to win the NOM, or place high enough up on the NWL to gain an apptmt. My previous paragraph should give you insight to what you need to feel competitive.

Whistle, I hope this puts to rest for you on how I really perceive the caliber of SA cadets, and I too believe we need to show the real facts. I am not called Janie Raincloud because I post sunshine and flowers.

I am one that wants every poster/lurker to understand this is a hard process, and it is a long process, one that you need to be brutally honest to your own self when it comes to competitiveness. I will not blow smoke.

I hope that you now have more insight regarding my POV
 
Interesting thread.

One thing that might make a difference to some people is the timeframe in which one earns a commission. If one starts at a SA, leaves after 1-2 years, then earns a commission through ROTC or OCS/PLC, their commissioning date is likely to be almost identical to those with whom they started in on I-day/R-day (so long as they make sure to graduate on time).

OTOH, if one starts at a "regular college" and then applies to a SA, their commissioning date will be one or more years later than those whose started college in the same year, since SAs require 4 years in residence, no mater one's previous college experience.

At the end of a career that one year may make little or no difference. It's just a factor that might be important to some.
 
Well, there can be a monumental difference on the type of commission provided. For example, all USNA grads receive "regular" commissions. Many ROTC kids this season received "reserve" commissions. And that can make a great difference in the scenario you've portrayed. I'm aware of a number of ROTC grads this season who've been placed on inactive reserve status. Sent home,for now at least. If one wants a career of 20 and maybe more, the regular commission is preferable.

Perhaps others can comment on this.
 
I thought Army ROTC was the only one that sent some ROTC grads the reserve route. Has this always been the case?
 
Pima,

I'm curious. Why do you participate in this forum? You had a son who applied - earned an appointment - and decided not to attend. He has moved on in his life. That's great!

But why do you still read this forum?

I'm not trying to be mean. That's not my intent. But I'm thinking that your son may have moved on - on wondering if you have moved on.

I participate here for several reasons.
1) Although not officially a Blue & Gold officer, I advise and help many of the local candidates.
2) I have two sons at the Naval Academy and it helps me keep apprised of what's going on.
3) I am a grad - and I'm just curious with how things have changed.

But if I were not a grad, had no children at the academy, or even if I had a child receive an appointment and decide not to go (as is your case), I'm not sure I would be hanging out here. To be blunt - I just wouldn't care.
 
Memphis9489 said:
Pima,

I'm curious. Why do you participate in this forum? You had a son who applied - earned an appointment - and decided not to attend. He has moved on in his life.
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I think Pima's son withdrew his AFA application prior to being awarded an appointment so he never knew.

There are hundreds of reasons to want to attend a SA and another hundred not to want to attend. Everyone fits in the spectrum at a different location. For those who reallly desire it, they will rationalize reasons to attend. For those further down the line, they will rationalize reasons not to atternd. Facts have very little to do with these decisions.

I have found that far less than 90% simply want to serve and apply to both SAs and ROTC. Many do not want the hassle of "playing" military at a civilian college. For them it is either the SA or straight civilian. But bottom line, every one is different and very difficult to categorize.
 
Mongo said:
...I have found that far less than 90% simply want to serve and apply to both SAs and ROTC. Many do not want the hassle of "playing" military at a civilian college. For them it is either the SA or straight civilian. But bottom line, every one is different and very difficult to categorize.
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Jerry ... doesn't this seem a bit pretentious, at least in its seeming categorizing and precision? And then in total contradiction, when you come to your "bottom line."

Not trying to belabor or beleaguer this. Simply in need of some clarification from you? Is it 90-10? Or every "man" for herself?:confused:
 
Mongo - My DS was one of those. It was USNA or bust - he did not apply to any ROTC programs and was offered other SA's which he turned down.
 
I was also SA or bust -- didn't apply to ROTC. I either wanted 100% military or none at all. In retrospect, it may not have been the wisest decision. But that was my POV at age 17 and it ended up working out for me.

ROTC is a great program (as is OCS/AOCS). There are many ways to a commission; some people are simply more suited to one vs. the other.
 
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