Citadel Hazing

Discussion in 'Publicly and Privately Funded Military Colleges' started by academyboundd, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. academyboundd

    academyboundd Member

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    I know all SAs and SMCs have an element of a "Fourth Class System" where Freshmen are put under high stress situations (memorizing lines from a books, squaring meals, getting yelled at, etc.), and that is something I believe I could handle because I know there are actual reasons behind them; My question is, however, does hazing that puts someone under real physical danger still happen at The Citadel? From my current knowledge, SAs are federally owned and so they're more supervised and "safer," but The Citadel is notoriously known for it's abuse toward freshmen.
     
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  2. CitadelN88

    CitadelN88 Member

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    In theory ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    But these are young leaders, mistakes are made. There is relatively close supervision by real adult retired military officers and senior enlisted.

    If actual hazing happens punishment is swift and severe. It can also lead to real world criminal charges.

    We just dropped #2 son of a few weeks ago an I was favorably impressed with the quality of the cadet leadership. They're far better leaders than we were back in the mid to late 80's.

    The current system is challenging, tough , fair and professional.

    Oh and sometimes you have to embrace the suck!
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
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  3. AJC

    AJC Member

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    In most states hazing is now a crime.
    As such the schools have levels of liability they did not have in the past.
    The are very sensitive to even the appearance of hazing.
     
  4. golfindad

    golfindad Member

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    Lords of Discipline......:)
     
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  5. Devil Doc

    Devil Doc Teufel Doc

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    Pat Conroy
     
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  6. glen

    glen 5-Year Member

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    academyboundd wrote: "The Citadel is notoriously known for it's abuse toward freshmen." Seriously - hazing is old news from 50 years ago....and most of it is myth perpetuated by Pat Conroy's fictional account of his freshman year - 1967. The fact is Conroy was a basketball player and as such was on Core Squad - and not involved in most of the Fourth Class System as a Knob. Regardless - today the System is tough, but fair and part of a much more disciplined and professional "Leadership Development Model," now in effect at The Citadel. This is a four year experience based on positive training and instruction program using techniques practiced by the modern military services. It is still physically tough - but not physically threatening. See the Leadership Program web page: http://www.citadel.edu/root/assistant-commandant-fourthclass-system
     
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  7. academyboundd

    academyboundd Member

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    Thank you for the clarification everyone! It's relieving to know that the "hazing" today is not nearly what it was several decades ago. I wonder if older alumni ever see it as a sign of The Citadel "breaking down on it's values" or "getting soft." While I have read TLOD, I was compelled to ask this question after reading Rick Reilly's article on The Citadel in 1992 (more recent, but still, 20+ years ago). I guess a lot can change in 20 years.

    1992- https://www.si.com/college-football/2014/09/04/si-60-what-citadel-rick-reilly
     
  8. CitadelN88

    CitadelN88 Member

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    yeh athletes and especially football players have it SO TOUGH at Citadel just ask them, they'll tell you. Maybe that's a bit harsh but only a bit.

    The old corpse er old corps likes to complain about how soft things are but I suspect that has been going on since the 50's , the 1850's that is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  9. glen

    glen 5-Year Member

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    academybounddd: As a member of the "Old Corps" and one who stays in close touch with the college, I can state unequivocally the System for Freshmen today is less indiscriminately harsh, but more generally demanding - as it is for upper class cadets. I graduated in 1970, so my Knob year was 1966/67 - the same year, by the way, that Pat Conroy used for his fictional account in the Lords of Discipline. The "system" then was indiscriminately administered in a fashion that reflected General Mark Clark's effort to recreate at The Citadel the plebe system he had experienced at West Point. That system was based on indiscriminate efforts to eliminate individuals who upper class cadets believed were not worthy to attend the military academy. Obviously - not very professional and not designed to produce positive leaders of men. This is why West Point and the other academies abandoned it for their leadership development models today. For over 20 years now, the college has been developing a much more professional leader development model - based on positive leadership traits - training that offers learning for both freshmen and upperclass cadets. I happened to be the guest of the current Commandant of Cadets earlier this month to see the beginning of Cadre Training Week for the nearly 500 upper class cadets who volunteer to be Cadre for the incoming Knobs. The week starts off with a training program led by a professional group of senior active duty and retired SEALS, Special Forces and other Special Operations personnel who have had recruit training experience. These experienced trainers have a common message: develop a standard of accomplishment that you want all of your people to attain and be responsible for providing individuals with the skills needed to attain that standard. The rest is up to them - and its not your responsibility to decide who belongs or who does not.
     
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  10. DesertCaliMom

    DesertCaliMom Member

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    Sometimes leadership isn't the issue. Cadre at Norwich have been excellent so far this year, including education on what to do if an upper classman gets out of hand. The leaders are taught restraint, the others it appears not so much, especially when upper classman believe they need to make up for a kinder, more gentle Rook experience.
     
  11. CitadelN88

    CitadelN88 Member

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    Cadre in the context I'm speaking are the First , Second and Third class cadets who run the Fourth Class System - you seem to be talking about non-cadet leadership?
     
  12. AJC

    AJC Member

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    The new Commandant of Cadets is not a Norwich graduate (not sure why not since all the past have been).
    As such he does not see the importance of continuing what he considers unprofessional traditions.
    There was quite an uproar about it last year.
    My son is Cadre this year.
    He commented that they do not want us to yell at the Rooks so much (this was during Rook Week).
    As I said before he now has a headstart on saying how much tougher it was when he was a rook.
     
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  13. DesertCaliMom

    DesertCaliMom Member

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    Correct. Bullying and hazing is occurring from non-cadet leadership. Cadre is aware of the issue and educating the Rooks on how-to deal with it. An almost direct quote: "only we get to be xxxholes!" Hah.
     
  14. DesertCaliMom

    DesertCaliMom Member

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    My son mentioned the yelling dies down when the commandant is around, but quickly returns to it's normal volume when he leaves. It doesn't bother the Rooks anymore, he said, beyond adding the appropriate pressure to learn a task.