Citadel Hazing

Parentofformercadet said:
academyboundd said:
I know all SAs and SMCs have an element of a "Fourth Class System" where Freshmen are put under high stress situations (memorizing lines from a books, squaring meals, getting yelled at, etc.), and that is something I believe I could handle because I know there are actual reasons behind them; My question is, however, does hazing that puts someone under real physical danger still happen at The Citadel? From my current knowledge, SAs are federally owned and so they're more supervised and "safer," but The Citadel is notoriously known for it's abuse toward freshmen.
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Yes hazing still goes on. My son just withdrew from the citadel due to hazing that definitely put him in physical danger.
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Can I private message you about this issue? My son has been accepted.
 
gd305 said:
What about VMI ?
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Well there are times when the Rats are forced to wait for their breakfast in bed, and I’ve heard that the weekly massage privileges have been withheld occasionally, so there probably are some who feel unfairly put upon. [emoji33]

I believe you will find that VMI ( as do the other SMCs) takes hazing very seriously. The Commandant’s staff is engaged closely with the Cadets, there is a full time IG on the Superintendent’s staff, and extensive regulations, training and review is given to the upperclass Cadre and RDC, and the Corps itself has the “GC” ( Committee of 1st Class Private’s) to police activity in barracks along with the cadet chain of command. The school is far more controlled and purposeful in how the Rat line is run than was the case when I was there in the mid 70s. Could Hazing happen? Things can always happen but I believe they have a serious system in place to prevent hazing - which is not the same as saying life is cushy !
 
Based on what I have observed for my DS for the past 3 1/2 years, I would agree with @bruno for VMI.

At VMI, they have the 10-day "Matriculation Week" (AKA: "Hell Week") that is their introduction to VMI and its disciplined environment. Hell Week is meant to be a shock to the system and is meant to be physically difficult. Rats still get a buzz cut. They have to be in an authorized uniform at all times except when taking a shower. They stand formation where they are inspected and quizzed, and then march to breakfast and to supper. Even after Hell Week is over and during the academic year, Rats still have to "strain" (an exaggerated position of attention) while in Barracks. They still have to walk the Rat Line at attention while in Barracks and over to the academic area for class. They still get to "push on the stoops" (do push ups) if challenged by the upper class as they climb the stairs in barracks to get to their rooms (all Rats live on the 4 or 5th stoop in Barracks.) They are challenged often by the upper class to recite knowledge of the Institute, and/or knowledge the Institute has deemed important and is contained in their Rat Bible. They must keep their room in inspection order (goes for all Classes). They can't sleep in their racks (beds) until authorized. They must keep their uniform in order. If they are unable to recite knowledge or keep their room or themselves in order, then there are consequences. The upper class will call a "sweat party" (a very difficult physical workout usually before Taps) for the Rat Mass every so often to "motivate" the Rats to "do better" if they are falling down in some area of discipline. The culminating event for the Rats is "Breakout" which is a very physically demanding event in their second semester where at the end, they are now considered 4th Class Cadets at VMI and are no longer a "Rat Mass" -- the current Rats at VMI are called Rat Mass 2019+3 -- after Breakout they will be considered an actual "Class" as in "Class of 2022". I'm certain I've left out a certain amount of detail, but all of this is under the supervision of the First Class (seniors) and the VMI Commandant's staff.

Some would call the above hazing, but it is not. Hazing is brutality -- not difficulty. Can it occur? Yes. Has it happened? Yes. But when found, it is not tolerated.
 
Thank you. I greatly appreciate this information, as a mother when you read this events its shocking and mainly overwhelming for not knowing much about the inside of the colleges.
 
The "4th Class System" at the SAs and the SMCs has a real purpose. What follows is the best explanation I've ever read. It was originally posted by a forum poster and fellow USAFA graduate @ramius, and was written by an '83 West Point grad ... A Col Friesen...

Falcon A said:
Stealing and posting a great post from raimius (another USAFA grad like myself) from 2011 . . .

Here's a story from the Army side. This is a commonality to all the military branches.

(Now LTC Friesen)
Author, Major Bo Friesen USMA 83 (15 Jun 99)

I'd like to chime in with my two cents on the 4th Class System, as I experienced it. My plebe year was during 79-80 and, although it was probably not as draconian as that of the more senior members of this forum, it appears to be considerably different from what exists today.

As I went through it, I did not understand how cutting a pie into nine equal pieces would help an officer lead soldiers into battle. The myriad of disjointed memorizations, ludicrous tasks and perpetual panic mode seemed to have very little to do with the profession of arms. I maintained this attitude throughout my upper class years and I was definitely not a flamer, although fairly stern and consistent. I kept this perspective as a junior officer ... right up to the moment I commanded a cavalry troop in the Gulf War.

One night, at around 0100, we conducted a passage of lines to assault an airfield. We had gone almost 60 hours without sleep and it was raining with a vengeance (yes, rain in the desert ... lots of it). Our own artillery was falling short and landing amongst us, one of my platoon leaders was heading off in a tangent to the direction he should have been following, the squadron main body was drifting too far north, my driver was heading straight for a ravine, a tank in my 4th platoon threw a track, we found ourselves in the middle of one of our own DPICM minefields, the objective was spotted on our right flank (instead of in front of us, where it should have been), almost no maps existed for our area of operations, my boss was perpetually screaming for me to change to his frequency (an impossibility with the wonderfully designed, single-transmitter command tanks), a half dozen spot reports were coming in from my troops (all critical), my intel NCO had a critical update, my X!
O had a critical update, my ops NCO had a critical update, my 1SG had a critical update, my gunner had spotted dismounts, the regimental commander was forward with us adding his own personal guidance, visibility was almost zero, there was a suspected use of chemical weapons, regimental S-2 reported 500 heavily armed Republican Guards on our objective (later determined to be a squad of American engineers), and I had a moderate to severe case of dysentery. (... A run-on sentence, I know, but then again it was a run-on night.)

It was during this little slice of heaven (of all places) that the 4thClass System was illuminated to me in all its glory. Its goal was not harassment, ridicule, or punishment. Its goal was to train the neural network to deal with an overwhelming amount of disjointed information, quickly process that information, categorize it, and make rapid, sound decisions. At that moment, I would have gladly given a month's pay to the genius who devised the 4th Class System. It provided me with a priceless gift to sort the significant from the insignificant and do my job in a much better fashion. From my perspective, THAT is the rationale behind the system. It trains your brain in a non-lethal environment to sort through the mess, bring some order to it, and continue functioning.

It is an extremely nasty world out there, and part of the academy's mission is to train graduates to survive and excel in that world. We are not doing the graduates any favors by sugarcoating things and putting a happy face on everything. There is still plenty of unadulterated evil, brute force, and chaos to go around. Pretending it isn't there will not make it go away. I sincerely hope that there are enough qualified people to deal with the future chaos and brute force quickly and effectively enough to protect our interests and keep it off our shores. Don't dismiss the 4th Class System as an archaic anachronism. I have found it to be one of the most valuable training programs I have ever undergone.

Just my 2 cents ...
Bo Friesen
Major U. S. Army
USMA 83
Click to expand...

Thank you Col Friesen for your service and for penning this answer ...
 
Thank you Col Friesen - for your comments. As a former Army officer, prosecutor, attorney in private practice, and business executive with a Fortune 50 Corporation - I can attest to the usefulness of the Fourth Class System I experienced 50 years ago in nearly every aspect of my life - including raising two lovely children through their teen years....Crisis brings out the best and worst in people. Learn to handle your self, and you will be the leader others want to follow.

Falcon A said:
The "4th Class System" at the SAs and the SMCs has a real purpose. What follows is the best explanation I've ever read. It was originally posted by a forum poster and fellow USAFA graduate @ramius, and was written by an '83 West Point grad ... A Col Friesen...

Falcon A said:
Stealing and posting a great post from raimius (another USAFA grad like myself) from 2011 . . .

Here's a story from the Army side. This is a commonality to all the military branches.

(Now LTC Friesen)
Author, Major Bo Friesen USMA 83 (15 Jun 99)

I'd like to chime in with my two cents on the 4th Class System, as I experienced it. My plebe year was during 79-80 and, although it was probably not as draconian as that of the more senior members of this forum, it appears to be considerably different from what exists today.

As I went through it, I did not understand how cutting a pie into nine equal pieces would help an officer lead soldiers into battle. The myriad of disjointed memorizations, ludicrous tasks and perpetual panic mode seemed to have very little to do with the profession of arms. I maintained this attitude throughout my upper class years and I was definitely not a flamer, although fairly stern and consistent. I kept this perspective as a junior officer ... right up to the moment I commanded a cavalry troop in the Gulf War.

One night, at around 0100, we conducted a passage of lines to assault an airfield. We had gone almost 60 hours without sleep and it was raining with a vengeance (yes, rain in the desert ... lots of it). Our own artillery was falling short and landing amongst us, one of my platoon leaders was heading off in a tangent to the direction he should have been following, the squadron main body was drifting too far north, my driver was heading straight for a ravine, a tank in my 4th platoon threw a track, we found ourselves in the middle of one of our own DPICM minefields, the objective was spotted on our right flank (instead of in front of us, where it should have been), almost no maps existed for our area of operations, my boss was perpetually screaming for me to change to his frequency (an impossibility with the wonderfully designed, single-transmitter command tanks), a half dozen spot reports were coming in from my troops (all critical), my intel NCO had a critical update, my X!
O had a critical update, my ops NCO had a critical update, my 1SG had a critical update, my gunner had spotted dismounts, the regimental commander was forward with us adding his own personal guidance, visibility was almost zero, there was a suspected use of chemical weapons, regimental S-2 reported 500 heavily armed Republican Guards on our objective (later determined to be a squad of American engineers), and I had a moderate to severe case of dysentery. (... A run-on sentence, I know, but then again it was a run-on night.)

It was during this little slice of heaven (of all places) that the 4thClass System was illuminated to me in all its glory. Its goal was not harassment, ridicule, or punishment. Its goal was to train the neural network to deal with an overwhelming amount of disjointed information, quickly process that information, categorize it, and make rapid, sound decisions. At that moment, I would have gladly given a month's pay to the genius who devised the 4th Class System. It provided me with a priceless gift to sort the significant from the insignificant and do my job in a much better fashion. From my perspective, THAT is the rationale behind the system. It trains your brain in a non-lethal environment to sort through the mess, bring some order to it, and continue functioning.

It is an extremely nasty world out there, and part of the academy's mission is to train graduates to survive and excel in that world. We are not doing the graduates any favors by sugarcoating things and putting a happy face on everything. There is still plenty of unadulterated evil, brute force, and chaos to go around. Pretending it isn't there will not make it go away. I sincerely hope that there are enough qualified people to deal with the future chaos and brute force quickly and effectively enough to protect our interests and keep it off our shores. Don't dismiss the 4th Class System as an archaic anachronism. I have found it to be one of the most valuable training programs I have ever undergone.

Just my 2 cents ...
Bo Friesen
Major U. S. Army
USMA 83
Click to expand...

Thank you Col Friesen for your service and for penning this answer ...
Click to expand...
 
At our very first official event at USNA, a parent/recruit meet and greet the night before IDay, Coach was addressing the plebes and parents. And talking about the year they were about to have. He quoted (and I paraphrase) Senator John McCain (who passed shortly thereafter RIP) who ‘attributed the things he learned his first year with getting him through his time as a POW’. It was that very moment that instead of dreading and being uncertain (and yes, a bit fearful) of what my DS was about to experience, I was thankful. For the training and foundation that would be laid to allow him the skills to fall back on in challenging/difficult times. It all has a purpose! Hazing? No. But being pushed and challenged and put out of ones comfort zone? Yes.
 
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