Class of 2015 Profile

[tallbutshort]

Well, I'm not sure I agree. The entire purpose of selectivity is attempting to enroll those most likely to finish the course in the "fastest" time. Those most likely to ...

And in that vein, SAs are FAR MORE SELECTIVE than the Ivies numbers aside for this simple fact ... Not only could Ivy students not complete the course, they'd not be appointed. Why? One simple reason ... most of them would not pass the CFA. It's that simple.

Thus ignoring the attempts to put a round selectivity statistics into a square appointment hole ... I'd bet a dime to a dollar more SA kids'd be admitted to Ivies than Ivies'd ever get into SAs. No brainer if one simply backs up and looks at the reality of this. As you've noted, the admissions is different. And it is that difference that ultimately makes the point.

Well then I suppose we shall just have to agree to disagree. But we can continue trying to convince each other since it's good fun

The service academies are harder to graduate from than Ivies and therefore more selective? Seems like a non sequitur to me. Selectivity has a great deal to do with level of interest.

If we look within the military at the Air Force and the Army, the same principles are at work. The Air Force's enlistment standards are higher than the Army's. They can be, because more people are interested (especially with the economy in the crapper). But if we're going to be completely honest, our soldiers have it a little harder than our airmen. Does that make the Army more selective? No, at least not in my book. Actually that's not a very good example, but it's 2 in the morning so you'll have to forgive me. My point was the more interest you have, the more selective you can be, difficulty is irrelevant.

Let's just agree that, as a general rule, you have to be really smart to get into an Ivy League school. Now if you are an incredibly intelligent kid that could have gotten into an Ivy and you actually want to go to a service academy, you probably can. Because if you do have that desire, you'll get involved in sports and seek leadership positions and all that jazz. The CFA is a ridiculously easy test to pass (especially if you're a girl...and I get to say that because I am one ). It really isn't a barrier if you truly and genuinely want to attend a service academy. The fact is, most of the Ivy kids don't.

Now let's just agree that, as a general rule, you have to be really well-rounded to get into a service academy. You have to be smart AND athletic AND other things. But you don't have to be AMAZING at anything. To get into an Ivy, you need to have something AMAZING.

I got into a service academy. I didn't get into an Ivy (actually i didn't apply to any Ivies...but Stanford rejected me ). Don't worry, I took stats, I know my personal anecdote means nothing. But I'm guessing that's how it would be for the vast majority of the SA kids.

 

[patesq]

First, tallbutshort, very well written post.

Let's just agree that, as a general rule, you have to be really smart to get into an Ivy League school. Now if you are an incredibly intelligent kid that could have gotten into an Ivy and you actually want to go to a service academy, you probably can. Because if you do have that desire, you'll get involved in sports and seek leadership positions and all that jazz. The CFA is a ridiculously easy test to pass (especially if you're a girl...and I get to say that because I am one ). It really isn't a barrier if you truly and genuinely want to attend a service academy. The fact is, most of the Ivy kids don't.

I am "Mom" to one of these very kids. DS, a rising junior, is #1 in his class and on track to earn the highest GPA ever earned at his high school. He has taken and plans to take every advanced/AP/college level class he can, with a focus on science and math. He has taken and is taking classes during the summer so he can get everything in that he wants (he's taking AP Biology this summer). He takes 8 classes during the school year (one on line) when the normal schedule is 7. He took AP Calculus (BC) as a sophomore - he got an A in the class and a 5 on the AP Exam. He has furthered challenged himself by earning a spot at the Governor's School for Science and Technology for his junior and senior years where he'll be in classes with the top math and science students in the local 7 school districts. This is a kid that is looking at MIT, Johns Hopkins and the other top engineering schools. He decided earlier this summer that he "wants to go to the Naval Academy" - his words. Not surprisingly, the athletics he's been involved in are more mental than physical - tae kwon do, combat hapkido and competitive air rifle. He talked to people this summer about what he needs to do to get ready for the Academy and his aunt (my sister, USNA '95) designed a 10 week workout plan to get him into shape. He has attacked that challenge in the same manner that he has attacked the academic challenges and has stuck to it well, even in the brutal heat/humidity of our area. He has never once complained, other than when I wouldn't let him run several miles outside at 9:00 at night and made him use the treadmill for that run. He was not happy with me but all this work means nothing if he gets hit by a car.

It's one sample but I doubt he's the only one smart enough to get into a top school and that can figure out what he/she needs to do to qualify physically for a service academy.

 

[Luigi59]

To get into an Ivy, you need to have something AMAZING.

Not true. Being a member of an under represented minority targeted group, with average SAT/ACT scores, is often enough to get in. Or being the child of a graduate, judging by their own class profile releases.

Looking at data from Penn, the SAT/ACT scores (25th-75th percentile) reported by their incoming class are no different from what the SA's report.

And having spent a little time on their campus, as well as Yale and Hopkins (yes, I know it's not an Ivy League school, but a very selective one) I see a lot of fat kids who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing the physical and/or medical qualifications necessary for a military academy appointment.

 

[terp1984]

I agree with Tallbutshort. My DS got a September LOA but did not get into Stanford, MIT, Duke and Dartmouth. He had 800/640 , 4.0 unweighted in top prep school and #3 out of 110 , 7AP's with mostly 5's and state ranked runner. If you are a white male trying to get ivy, IMOP you do need something amazing to get you in. Just looking at the 25-75 range there are alot of factors that pull that down the same as the academy.

 

[Whistle Pig]

The essential point here is simply this ...

Those enamored with the Ivy definition of "intelligence" and thus worthiness of selection is narrow and totally skewed toward one thing: IQ and book smart, i.e. how does an individual do on the test(s) (and other exercises deemed as a "valid" measure of intelligence. It is purely academic.

Conversely, most research (and there is very little worthwhile research done in this area for obvious reasons. Who would do it? Why would they "shoot themselves in their feet" debunking all that they've been busting their Ph.D. humps to prove, i.e. that the academic measure(s) of "smart" are well, purely and primarily "academic.") suggests that beyond academic type jobs (teachers, profs, research, writing, etc.) the classic Ivy preferences for determining "selectivity" have virtually no correlation with worldly intelligence. I'd offer that Sen. McCain's father had a far more reliable, predictable measure of selectivity, and it mimics much of what USNA seeks.

 

[tallbutshort]

Not true. Being a member of an under represented minority targeted group, with average SAT/ACT scores, is often enough to get in. Or being the child of a graduate, judging by their own class profile releases.

Yeah, I nearly noted in my last post but I figured it wasn't all that important since that's not the majority of the class. I'd also add you can know someone in admissions, like one kid in my class who got into Stanford because his dad got some admissions officer's kid a job...

Looking at data from Penn, the SAT/ACT scores (25th-75th percentile) reported by their incoming class are no different from what the SA's report.

I'm going to assume you meant Penn state, which is not an Ivy, because University of Pennsylvania's are higher.

And having spent a little time on their campus, as well as Yale and Hopkins (yes, I know it's not an Ivy League school, but a very selective one) I see a lot of fat kids who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing the physical and/or medical qualifications necessary for a military academy appointment.

Well I'm just saying, with how easy the CFA is, any human being without some debilitating medical condition could pass it if they wanted to badly enough and were working on it enough time in advance. Being fat doesn't have to be permanent.

 

[tallbutshort]

The essential point here is simply this ...

Those enamored with the Ivy definition of "intelligence" and thus worthiness of selection is narrow and totally skewed toward one thing: IQ and book smart, i.e. how does an individual do on the test(s) (and other exercises deemed as a "valid" measure of intelligence. It is purely academic.

Conversely, most research (and there is very little worthwhile research done in this area for obvious reasons. Who would do it? Why would they "shoot themselves in their feet" debunking all that they've been busting their Ph.D. humps to prove, i.e. that the academic measure(s) of "smart" are well, purely and primarily "academic.") suggests that beyond academic type jobs (teachers, profs, research, writing, etc.) the classic Ivy preferences for determining "selectivity" have virtually no correlation with worldly intelligence. I'd offer that Sen. McCain's father had a far more reliable, predictable measure of selectivity, and it mimics much of what USNA seeks.

I'd argue that the service academies are just as enamored with what you described in the first paragraph. You can get a letter of assurance (at least from USMA) when all they have is your SAT/ACT scores and transcripts. Granted, you still have to finish the application, which includes passing the CFA, and get a nom. But what that says to me is that they'd jump on the chance to get a lot of the Ivy kids granted they could pass the CFA and DoDMERB.

 

[navy2016]

Not true. Being a member of an under represented minority targeted group, with average SAT/ACT scores, is often enough to get in. Or being the child of a graduate, judging by their own class profile releases.

Looking at data from Penn, the SAT/ACT scores (25th-75th percentile) reported by their incoming class are no different from what the SA's report.

And having spent a little time on their campus, as well as Yale and Hopkins (yes, I know it's not an Ivy League school, but a very selective one) I see a lot of fat kids who don't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing the physical and/or medical qualifications necessary for a military academy appointment.

In an article, Harvard admits to giving legacies a 30 percent acceptance rate- everyone else- about 5 percent.

 

[Mongo]

I think these notes are about 5 yrs old. Of 70 candidates who applied to both USNA and an Ivy League school, 58 attended USNA. USNA/Ivy. Brown, 2/0; Columbia, 9/1; Cornell, 21/3; Dartmouth, 4/1; Harvard, 4/1; Princeton 5/4;, Yale, 3/2; Penn 14/1.

Others: MIT, 3/6; Stanford, 1/3; CalPoly 1/0; Illinois, 8/6; Berkley, 8/2; Purdue 31/0; Georgia Tech, 38/0; Michigan 26/0, etc.

 

[Mongo]

Another update for the class of 2015 profile: The Academic Dean announced today that the class of 2015 now holds the ALL TIME RECORD for the number of plebes validating courses in Calculus, Chemistry, Physics and English.

Does not necessarily mean anything. All it would take would be a slight reemphasis on the academic portion of the scholastic qualification at the expense of the remainder of the whole person. Hopefully this is not the case.

 

[AikiBudo]

Does not necessarily mean anything. All it would take would be a slight reemphasis on the academic portion of the scholastic qualification at the expense of the remainder of the whole person. Hopefully this is not the case.

What? I think you misunderstood what I was referring to. The number of Plebes who tested out of Calculus 1 and 2, Chemistry 1 and 2, Physics 1 and 2, etc. during Plebe Summer is an all time record. That is a big deal.

 

[Mongo]

What? I think you misunderstood what I was referring to.

I understand perfectly what you said. The factors affecting the WPM are continujally tweaked. For example, if 'A's in AP Physics, AP Chemistry, and AP Calculus were awarded an extra hundred points on the WPM, would not a greater percentage of candidates show up on I-Day capable of validating these courses.

 

[AikiBudo]

No. You do not automatically validate you have to take the tests. Are you saying that overweighting smarter candidates in the selection process is bad?

 

[Mongo]

For Physics and Chemistry, yes. For Calculus, a '4' or greater on the AP exam will suffice. Back to my theoretical example, if those taking high school AP Physics or Chemistry and doing well were awarded a few extra WPM points, it would result in a greater percentage of the incoming class having completed these courses. Correct? Therefore, since more have taken the proper prerequisite, more will pass the validation test.

 

[AikiBudo]

Yes. Got it. Still it is a good thing. We have no idea what the rest of the candidate’s profiles look like except what has been made public but with most of the numbers similar to previous years, the bump up in SATs and the large number of course validations is certainly not bad. If 2015 is somehow lacking somewhere else - I don't see it in the numbers.

 

[breadcrumbs]

We get it. '15 is smarter, faster, stronger, endured the hottest summer, than any other class. My *old* goat and *young* goat would differ.....as would every other class Lucky for '15 training has become more friendly and they took validation tests at the very beginning of PS. Previous years had VT's in the middle of PS when they were terribly exhausted. What really matters is crossing the stage in 4 years.

 

[Whistle Pig]

You mean the bump down in SATs/ACTs. The upper quartile is higher, the mean scores are lower. We see what we want. lol So much for the "no spin zone" with this one.

"My dog's bettern your dog. My dog's bettern yours! My dog's better, cause he ate Kennel Rations. My Plebe's smartern yours."

 

[Mongo]

Are you saying that overweighting smarter candidates in the selection process is bad?

You mean the bump down in SATs/ACTs. The upper quartile is higher, the mean scores are lower.

Don't fall into the trap that the only portion of the whole person concept that is important is academics and standardized tests. Remember, the Academy is looking for well rounded individuals to add to the officer corps.

Yes, a certain percentage needs to be brainaics and rocket scientists but some need to be just plain old solid in-the-trench leaders and the two groups are not necessarily the same.

 

[Packer]

Yes, a certain percentage needs to be brainaics and rocket scientists but some need to be just plain old solid in-the-trench leaders and the two groups are not necessarily the same.

Test scores and high school performance is all the academic information that the academies have to make there decision but don't we all know kids who were mediocre in high school and excelled in college and kids that wer great in high school and bombed in college? Just because a kid enters with mediocre test scores, etc does not mean he is destined to be "plain old" whatever. By the way I don't think you intended to imply that.

 

[Craig]

One could make an argument that slightly lower temperatures make for a harder summer. Depending on the flag condition you could work them harder.