Class of 2017 Service Selection Stats

[forumjunkie]

is the CW Crypto or Cyber? Trying to understand if some of these abbreviations IP, CW etc.. are old standards, where do the new Cyber warfare assignments fall under? Or do they not exist yet?

I did look at several of the links but I am not able to get it clear in my mind/

 

[RadDad6337]

The desire for USMC seems to fluctuate at USNA. My classe and those around me were moderately competitive. Those after me drafted folks.

I don't suggest that the Navy or Marines take unqualified Midshipmen. They should all be qualified. But if USNA is below their quota for Marines, Aviators, or Subs there is more opportunity to get officers who qualify AND have a high desire to serve if you don't limit it to the Academy only. Why push midshipmen into a draft that they don't desire if you can find more willing, and possibly better qualified folks from ROTC? Sure it would take effort to work out the coordination and details, but it may better serve the needs of the Navy overall. I just think there is potential benefit. The Navy certainty has taken on more complicated personnel issues than this in the past.

 

[ktnatalk]

is the CW Crypto or Cyber? Trying to understand if some of these abbreviations IP, CW etc.. are old standards, where do the new Cyber warfare assignments fall under? Or do they not exist yet?

I did look at several of the links but I am not able to get it clear in my mind/

@forumjunkie: Straight out of ProKnow. Cyber is part of CW.

 

[nuensis]

is the CW Crypto or Cyber? Trying to understand if some of these abbreviations IP, CW etc.. are old standards, where do the new Cyber warfare assignments fall under? Or do they not exist yet?

I did look at several of the links but I am not able to get it clear in my mind/

There are no "cyber warfare" assignments. In addition, "cyber" is a very vague term that has been haphazardly applied to anything from computer networks to information security to cryptography and computer science.

The Information Warfare Community (IWC) consists of Intelligence (INTEL), Meteorology and Oceanography (METOC), Information Professional (IP), Cryptologic Warfare (CW), and Space Cadre.

Cyber Warfare Engineer (CWE) is a designator awarded to specifically recruited computer scientists and software developers from industry. They're not looking for STEM students with a desire to lead or any of the usual officer stuff, they're looking for software developers and computer scientists to develop tools and design cryptographic algorithms. It is not something for an entry-level BS Computer Science student (much less a candidate with any other kind of degree). They are immediately assigned to NIOC Maryland and are included with Cryptologic Warfare in terms of BUPERS detailing and administration. CWEs cannot promote past O-3 and must redesignate to CW or IP to continue.

USNA/OCS/ROTC will not commission CWEs.

Generally, in regards to computer networks, CW officers and Cryptographic Technicians-Networks (CTNs) provide effects: computer network exploitation and attack. IP officers and Information Systems Technicians (ITs) provide security: information security and computer network defense. There is significant overlap in roles between both groups; attack and defense are two sides of the same coin.

Networks is not all that CWs and IPs do, however. CWs also specialize in signals intelligence (collection/analysis) and electronic warfare (attack, protection, support); IPs also specialize in communications, security (cyber/information/operations/communications/personnel), space (accounting for a majority of Navy Space Cadre), information management, and cyber acquisition. Both CWs and IPs have the opportunity to serve in Cyber Mission Force teams (https://www.defense.gov/News/Articl...puty-details-formation-of-cyber-mission-force).

 

[ktnatalk]

Thank you @nuensis for your detailed explanation. Are you a CW?

 

[forumjunkie]

Whew, I am gonna have to chew on this for awhile......When's the test

 

[Memphis9489]

There are no "cyber warfare" assignments.

You mean, there are no assignments out of the Naval Academy? I thought Keenan Reynolds, initially, was assigned to "cyber warfare" before being released by the Navy to pursue professional football. Yet, I'm sure everything about Keenan Reynolds falls into the category of "EXCEPTION".

You would think that with the building of the Cyber Warfare Center on the grounds of the Naval Academy that this would certainly be a thing in the very near future. Isn't it under consideration for being re-categorized as an UNrestricted warfare specialty? Plus, the course curriculum is putting far more emphasis on it.
http://www.c4isrnet.com/articles/usna-trains-future-cyber-warriors

 

[ktnatalk]

@nuensis, I'd let you comment on what your classmates (and you) thought about Reynolds "took/stole" one of the Cryptologic Warfare spot (NOT Cyber, Memphis), and then go into the "reserve".

 

[Vista123]

SUBS & CYBER WARFARE
OK Here is our personal up to day current info that will answer many of the questions and speculation here.
Back ground I am a long time poster and friend of Service Academy Forum. I havent been on in so long though I forgot my password for a sec. I only knew about this thread because someone just messaged me on FB about it. I am a mom of a USNA 2017, 2018 Army ROTC, and a senior in HS.

SUBS:
my son is a Mech E magor with a strong GPA (not ridiculously high). He never had a single behavior infraction, and had exceptionally high peer rankings. He did everything he could do to get pilot. Took all of the pilot summer assignments and did exceptionally well in them. He was 100% cleared to go medically after the successful PRK.

While away at a hockey game we heard he was "On the sub watch list". Panic. A week later he was called into SARB (long story on the best / worst way to handle SARB if anyone has a question about that message me privately, there are WRONG ways to handle this!!!) SARB is when you get called in because you are not getting your first choice. My son put subs 6th. He was told he was "over qualified for pilots." TBH some of his friends who were sub drafted got similar and some different reasons. After the SARB. There is a test before the admiral interview -some tank the test. You go meet with the admiral. They *welcome* you to the sub community. You thank the admiral for having you in the sub community. You are now a submarine warfare officer.

He was getting subs. Had he gotten lower grades, a different major, gotten into more (any) trouble, had worse peer rankings perhaps he would be heading to Pensacola instead of Charleston. SIX 2017s in his company got subdrafted.

There are benefits. He ended up buying a car yesterday with his bonus (he would have gotten a bit more $ had a signed the end of Jr. year but not much more). Your clock starts the day after commissioning, you get a *free* grad school equivalent in nuclear engineering. The pay is the highest of any assignment in the military. The re-signing bonus is awesome. The community is filled with smart nice people. The negatives are obvious and individual to each person. For my son he saw the reason, he saw the benefits, he is committed to make it a go but he was disappointed. WAS THIS FAIR??!!! Of course it is. From day one in that interview with our awesome BGO my son was asked "what if you don't get your service selection" . They told him up front that he may not get what he wanted and the needs of the Navy come first. My son understood. As a mom we are sad that his dream of being a career Navy pilot and one day retiring and flying for Delta are over. However we knew the possibility every single step of the way. My son was bummed but is pivoting proudly. He does not regret USNA (but probably would have picked a different major had he known)

CYBER:
My daughter (36 ACT, 3 sport athlete, #1 in her class and a topped ranked cyber competitor in the US) went to USNA STEM (where she learned to fall in love with Cyber) and the USNA NASS just six months ago. She spent a lot of time talking to the cyber people there. Their cyber program is awesome and changes to that Service selection will evolve-possibly soon with the new building in place Having said that Cyber Warfare (the type she wanted) is *currently* restricted line with 1-2 spots for non restricted. She would have to gamble that she would be THE top cyber student to guarantee her Service selection. That is alot of pressure and after what happened to her brother she went Ivy league instead.

These are all choices that my kids knowingly made.

PS: Also w/o going into too much detail Marine community this year for the first time were allowed to "save" some mids they ranked high from being subdrafted into another community (the exception of course is SEALS and EOD) . In the past this was not the case.

 

[Annapopoint]

SUBS & CYBER WARFARE
OK Here is our personal up to day current info that will answer many of the questions and speculation here.
Back ground I am a long time poster and friend of Service Academy Forum. I havent been on in so long though I forgot my password for a sec. I only knew about this thread because someone just messaged me on FB about it. I am a mom of a USNA 2017, 2018 Army ROTC, and a senior in HS.

SUBS:
my son is a Mech E magor with a strong GPA (not ridiculously high). He never had a single behavior infraction, and had exceptionally high peer rankings. He did everything he could do to get pilot. Took all of the pilot summer assignments and did exceptionally well in them. He was 100% cleared to go medically after the successful PRK.

While away at a hockey game we heard he was "On the sub watch list". Panic. A week later he was called into SARB (long story on the best / worst way to handle SARB if anyone has a question about that message me privately, there are WRONG ways to handle this!!!) SARB is when you get called in because you are not getting your first choice. My son put subs 6th. He was told he was "over qualified for pilots." TBH some of his friends who were sub drafted got similar and some different reasons. After the SARB. There is a test before the admiral interview -some tank the test. You go meet with the admiral. They *welcome* you to the sub community. You thank the admiral for having you in the sub community. You are now a submarine warfare officer.

He was getting subs. Had he gotten lower grades, a different major, gotten into more (any) trouble, had worse peer rankings perhaps he would be heading to Pensacola instead of Charleston. SIX 2017s in his company got subdrafted.

There are benefits. He ended up buying a car yesterday with his bonus (he would have gotten a bit more $ had a signed the end of Jr. year but not much more). Your clock starts the day after commissioning, you get a *free* grad school equivalent in nuclear engineering. The pay is the highest of any assignment in the military. The re-signing bonus is awesome. The community is filled with smart nice people. The negatives are obvious and individual to each person. For my son he saw the reason, he saw the benefits, he is committed to make it a go but he was disappointed. WAS THIS FAIR??!!! Of course it is. From day one in that interview with our awesome BGO my son was asked "what if you don't get your service selection" . They told him up front that he may not get what he wanted and the needs of the Navy come first. My son understood. As a mom we are sad that his dream of being a career Navy pilot and one day retiring and flying for Delta are over. However we knew the possibility every single step of the way. My son was bummed but is pivoting proudly. He does not regret USNA (but probably would have picked a different major had he known)

CYBER:
My daughter (36 ACT, 3 sport athlete, #1 in her class and a topped ranked cyber competitor in the US) went to USNA STEM (where she learned to fall in love with Cyber) and the USNA NASS just six months ago. She spent a lot of time talking to the cyber people there. Their cyber program is awesome and changes to that Service selection will evolve-possibly soon with the new building in place Having said that Cyber Warfare (the type she wanted) is *currently* restricted line with 1-2 spots for non restricted. She would have to gamble that she would be THE top cyber student to guarantee her Service selection. That is alot of pressure and after what happened to her brother she went Ivy league instead.

These are all choices that my kids knowingly made.

PS: Also w/o going into too much detail Marine community this year for the first time were allowed to "save" some mids they ranked high from being subdrafted into another community (the exception of course is SEALS and EOD) . In the past this was not the case.

Please message me regarding how to handle SARB interview. My ‘19 son is in the same position as your son was. He is devastated, he has wanted marine aviation forever! SARB interview in 2 days.

 

[Capt MJ]

Please message me regarding how to handle SARB interview. My ‘19 son is in the same position as your son was. He is devastated, he has wanted marine aviation forever! SARB interview in 2 days.

While you’re waiting, enter “sub draft” into the Search field in this USNA forum.

The post you responded to is a 2017 post, so the poster may or may not regularly monitor.

 

[Memphis9489]

@nuensis, I'd let you comment on what your classmates (and you) thought about Reynolds "took/stole" one of the Cryptologic Warfare spot (NOT Cyber, Memphis), and then go into the "reserve".

I know a lot of people have a problem with this - but actually do not. When a Naval Academy distinguishes himself to the degree that he is drafted by a professional sports team - I think he/she should be permitted to pursue that if that's what they want. It's a very rare occurrence and I think the Navy manning formulas can survive this. Oftentimes, they end up being quite a representative for the Navy on the field as announcers tend to talk about their background quite a bit.

In the recent past, there was Mitch Harris, an accomplished pitcher for Navy. He was drafted by the St. Louis Cardinals but was forced to serve his time in Surface Warfare. He practiced on the ship the best he could to keep in shape. When he got out of the name he still had enough skill that the Cardinals invited them to their training camp and he made the minor league team. In no time, he was in Triple-A and eventually made it to the big club. But, by rookie standards he was old. But they talked about him a great deal whenever he played. The Naval Academy was often mentioned and he was very active in signing autographs for kids and community involvement. He was quite popular. Unfortunately, his MLB career only lasted about 2 years, mostly because of his age. It's really a shame.

I think exceptions can be made and it can be a win/win situation.

To claim that it's unfair to other graduates insinuates that these other graduates would to also have their service commitment waived if given the opportunity - even if they are not a drafted athlete. I would guess that is not the case. Most want to pursue their service community upon graduation. Making a rare exception every few years wouldn't put a dent in Navy manning.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

When a Naval Academy distinguishes himself to the degree that he is drafted by a professional sports team - I think he/she should be permitted to pursue that if that's what they want. It's a very rare occurrence and I think the Navy manning formulas can survive this. Oftentimes, they end up being quite a representative for the Navy on the field as announcers tend to talk about their background quite a bit.

This may not be the most appropriate thread for this discussion, and I know that alot of older grads don't agree, but I agree with Memphis. My example is David Robinson, who came to USNA completely unheralded and bloomed into one of the greatest Basketball players ever. I would argue that he did more for the Country as a role model and mentor than he ever would have as an anonymous Junior Officer. (He also did alot for USNA , being identified as a USNA grad and carrying the "Admiral" moniker, and visiting schools in uniform).

USNA is never going to be a top tier competitor in the the major sports, and really shouldn't be. No one should attend USNA with the goal of getting out of the Service obligation. But in the extremely rare case that an athlete blossoms while at USNA, and has the opportunity to go on to professional athletes , I say let them go.

That being said, I think I read on this forum a year or so ago that USAFA Supe issued and instruction prohibiting the practice, and don't recall if USNA and USMA joined in.

(As an aside, I am much more concerned with maintaining standards for admission of athletes and performance while Midshipmen than I am about that rare person who goes pro).