A1Janitor
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My son was given a color blind waiver to USNA. He cannot be a pilot.
Color Vison, CCT, UPT
- Thread starter gpar6479
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No matter the dream job you envision when accepting your appointment, you have to be prepared for that to shift.
Could be you fall in love with something else.
You may not be selected for that service.
You may not be physically or medically eligible for that service.
Needs of ‘Big Navy or Big Air Force’ may change.
You need to pick the school which provides the best options for service upon commissioning. More options that appeal to you would be a good thing. Nothing is certain.
Also, this is a very interesting thread thanks for all the insight.
Could be you fall in love with something else.
You may not be selected for that service.
You may not be physically or medically eligible for that service.
Needs of ‘Big Navy or Big Air Force’ may change.
You need to pick the school which provides the best options for service upon commissioning. More options that appeal to you would be a good thing. Nothing is certain.
Also, this is a very interesting thread thanks for all the insight.
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You will be better off asking this in the DoDMERB forum, so @MullenLE has a chance to see it. If you have spent any time in the DoDMERB forum, you will have noticed he is the Deputy Director, and he often offers insights and off-line communications as necessary.
The color vision officer accession standard is the same. It’s the waiver policies which may differ by service or commissioning path. The waiver policies differ because the mission, operating environments, gear and equipment differ. From what I have observed for USNA over many years, color vision deficiencies are a DQ, and a tiny handful of waivers are given, with the additional limitation of the unrestricted line communities (includes pilot, NFO, surface, submarine, EPD, etc.) being off the table. The incoming midshipman knows they will be limited to restricted line or staff corps officer communities. Those are communities such as intel, oceanography, supply, etc.
Also, I believe the Navy still allows the use of the psuedochromatic "PIP" plates such as the Ishahara plates, which are most common, for color vision screening which I have heard are little easier to pass than the Air Force's Cone Contrast Test or CCT. Although the CCT may be being replaced now too.
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I want to add that the depth perception test is something lots of prospective pilots fail when they go through the pilot physical. Its not that they don't have depth perception, it that there is a trick to doing it. Obviously, there are people who will fail because they don't have proper depth perception but others fail because they really don't know what to do when taking the test.. The doctors at Wright Patterson or wherever you go for the physical will help you figure out how to take the test. I think if you cant pass the normal test they do a more sophisticated way of testing you for it. My son went with to his physical with three other AFRotc cadets. One failed because the position of his eyes was off (no idea what that means) the other failed because he had some type of cataracts that he was born with which he never knew about. The third guy was rated but not pilot and the fourth was my son who passed although he needs to wear glasses when he flies. My recommendation for anyone who wants to be a pilot is to have their eyes checked by an Ophthalmologist. Preferably by someone who worked in the military as an eye doctor and knows all of the standards. The worst thing is working so hard to be a pilot , get selected and then have to leave the program because your eyes don't measure up As for the trick to do the depth perception, they have tests on the internet where you can practice. Plus if you can handle those magic pictures where if you look it a certain way, you can see a whole different picture , then i think you are golden. The eye exam is almost a whole day. They spend a lot of time making sure your vision is good. My son was told at UPT that if he got a fighter, he should look at getting laser eye surgery. He didn't get fighter so at least at this point, he isn't bothering. The AF will pay for this surgery.
Well darn. I suppose each person's color vision anomalies can be different. I know of more people passing the Ishihara PIP test for the Navy after failing the Air Force CCT than the other way around though.
A1Janitor
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Every individual is different. I don’t know the type of test he originally took as part of his medical. Mr. Mullen will certainly be the best word on your questions.
Mrpepper887
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What do you mean the CCT might be replaced? Are they going to start using a different test instead?
ColorVisionWoes
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I'd like to first thank all the informative replies in the beginning of this thread on this very controversial topic. I can echo some others experiences with the Air Force CCT screening and the associated "woes" that came from it.
I began applying to Air Guard units in 2013 and landed a UPT slot out of college in 2014. Doing my due diligence, I educated myself on all aspects of the color vision screening for an AF FC1 physical. The consistent factor that people were having issues with was the CCT. Knowing I had never done particularly strong on the Ishihara plates, I sought out a doc that had the CCT and was able to practice it. Much to my disappointment, I could not pass the green portion. At the time, they were still using the 75 and above for the passing score in each color category. I was scoring 50-55 in green in each eye. After talking to the unit that hired me, it was decided it would be a waste of time to move forward with Wright Pat if we already knew it would be a failure for a non-waiverable issue. Maybe a little naive on my part at the time, but that was that. Few years go by and I join the Army and commission into a non-rated officer position. 2019 rolls around and I happen to discover the AF had changed the standards on the CCT down to 55 and above for passing score. At that point, all my focus in life shifted to get back to the AF as quickly as possible and realize my dream to fly. After a year of interviewing with Air Guard units, I am offered a dream job flying heavies with a fantastic unit. Before I went to Wright Pat for the FC1, I sought out yet another doc with the CCT and was able to attempt it a few times to refresh myself on what to expect. The first few times were not great, but once I got in a cadence, I was able to consistently pass it over and over again. This gave me the confidence to go into Wright Pat and ace this.
Half way through the Wright Pat experience, its time for the vision screening. To my dismay, they administered a few different tests first (depth perception, etc.) before the CCT. I was hoping to take the CCT with rested eyes and use every ounce of my deficiency to achieve the 55. But, it wasn't meant to be and I failed the green by 1 point in each eye (each point is worth 5, so I got a 50 in the greens instead of the 55). I can tell you that that was one of the most gut wrenching feelings in the world, and having to be around all those other excited applicants for the rest of the time where they all passed. To further make sure you can't ask for a re-test or waiver, they give you a battery of other color vision tests on a computer that focus on the deficiency from the CCT, all of which you will not pass if you are mildly deficient. I left Wright Pat with a "moderatly color deficient---strongly suggest against rated position" in my file. A guy that passed 14/14 on the MEPS Army entrance, passed annual PHA color vision tests and flown 10 years on the civilian side with a First Class FAA medical, is now deemed moderately colorblind by Wright Pat. I know its not supposed to make much sense, but I still can't help but to scoff at that notion. My hiring unit was extremely helpful in trying to find a way around this, but Wright Pat and AETC med command was so stringent that they would not even look at outside test results I received from a civilian doc stating and showing that no, I was not color deficient to that level.
I think the way the AF looks at color vision has gone exponentially backwards the past few decades based off of what others have said on forum posts like this. Color deficiency is being seen as color blindness, which is blatantly incorrect. Folks having issues with color vision testing at Wright Pat (and probably other services flight physicals) should be afforded the same "help" or second chances that people with depth perception or acuity problems have. The idea that color vision is set in stone, and you have what you have, is simply not true. Sure, you're born with it but some people are so borderline deficient that they can fail in one sitting, and pass in the next sitting. Exactly the same as with depth perception. I feel kinda "f'd" at this point if I wanted to try another branch for flying. I would definately like to go Navy if that was even possible at this point, but I feel like the amount of scrutinization I would receive after having a DQ from Wright Pat in my record would make it an instant no-go.
Okay, rant over.
I began applying to Air Guard units in 2013 and landed a UPT slot out of college in 2014. Doing my due diligence, I educated myself on all aspects of the color vision screening for an AF FC1 physical. The consistent factor that people were having issues with was the CCT. Knowing I had never done particularly strong on the Ishihara plates, I sought out a doc that had the CCT and was able to practice it. Much to my disappointment, I could not pass the green portion. At the time, they were still using the 75 and above for the passing score in each color category. I was scoring 50-55 in green in each eye. After talking to the unit that hired me, it was decided it would be a waste of time to move forward with Wright Pat if we already knew it would be a failure for a non-waiverable issue. Maybe a little naive on my part at the time, but that was that. Few years go by and I join the Army and commission into a non-rated officer position. 2019 rolls around and I happen to discover the AF had changed the standards on the CCT down to 55 and above for passing score. At that point, all my focus in life shifted to get back to the AF as quickly as possible and realize my dream to fly. After a year of interviewing with Air Guard units, I am offered a dream job flying heavies with a fantastic unit. Before I went to Wright Pat for the FC1, I sought out yet another doc with the CCT and was able to attempt it a few times to refresh myself on what to expect. The first few times were not great, but once I got in a cadence, I was able to consistently pass it over and over again. This gave me the confidence to go into Wright Pat and ace this.
Half way through the Wright Pat experience, its time for the vision screening. To my dismay, they administered a few different tests first (depth perception, etc.) before the CCT. I was hoping to take the CCT with rested eyes and use every ounce of my deficiency to achieve the 55. But, it wasn't meant to be and I failed the green by 1 point in each eye (each point is worth 5, so I got a 50 in the greens instead of the 55). I can tell you that that was one of the most gut wrenching feelings in the world, and having to be around all those other excited applicants for the rest of the time where they all passed. To further make sure you can't ask for a re-test or waiver, they give you a battery of other color vision tests on a computer that focus on the deficiency from the CCT, all of which you will not pass if you are mildly deficient. I left Wright Pat with a "moderatly color deficient---strongly suggest against rated position" in my file. A guy that passed 14/14 on the MEPS Army entrance, passed annual PHA color vision tests and flown 10 years on the civilian side with a First Class FAA medical, is now deemed moderately colorblind by Wright Pat. I know its not supposed to make much sense, but I still can't help but to scoff at that notion. My hiring unit was extremely helpful in trying to find a way around this, but Wright Pat and AETC med command was so stringent that they would not even look at outside test results I received from a civilian doc stating and showing that no, I was not color deficient to that level.
I think the way the AF looks at color vision has gone exponentially backwards the past few decades based off of what others have said on forum posts like this. Color deficiency is being seen as color blindness, which is blatantly incorrect. Folks having issues with color vision testing at Wright Pat (and probably other services flight physicals) should be afforded the same "help" or second chances that people with depth perception or acuity problems have. The idea that color vision is set in stone, and you have what you have, is simply not true. Sure, you're born with it but some people are so borderline deficient that they can fail in one sitting, and pass in the next sitting. Exactly the same as with depth perception. I feel kinda "f'd" at this point if I wanted to try another branch for flying. I would definately like to go Navy if that was even possible at this point, but I feel like the amount of scrutinization I would receive after having a DQ from Wright Pat in my record would make it an instant no-go.
Okay, rant over.
hornetguy
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I went through the color vision journey back in 2014/2015 and decided to separate due to my experience: https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/hornetguy-is-a-civilian.41351/#post-403843
I'm sad that timing sucked and during the timeframe I was challenging the CCT, the standard was 75/100 per color per eye and I was hitting 70 on green in one eye each time. Also, the other 'conditions' that the doctors there diagnosed me with were false/fake. I've had 6 eye docs on the civilian side since then scratch their heads and say "I show no evidence that you have these other things they said you did." Also, the friend I referenced in that post who was also fighting continued to fight the standard and he won on the third try a couple years ago. Sadly, he was never able to fulfill his dream as he passed away from cancer about a month ago. Also of note, for those who remember the many scandals at Laughlin at the time, I was there and got to observe it all! (I actually replaced the Capt exec who was prosecuted for "Molly-gate" and got to experience the awful commanders first-hand). Needless to say, I don't have high opinions of AF Med nor a lot of people in the flying community.
That all said...7 years later I have an amazing job in tech land, wonderful home life near family, and figured out life after. Always have a backup and never give up because you never know what doors will open for you and if you give up, you may lose some awesome opportunities you never expected.
I'm sad that timing sucked and during the timeframe I was challenging the CCT, the standard was 75/100 per color per eye and I was hitting 70 on green in one eye each time. Also, the other 'conditions' that the doctors there diagnosed me with were false/fake. I've had 6 eye docs on the civilian side since then scratch their heads and say "I show no evidence that you have these other things they said you did." Also, the friend I referenced in that post who was also fighting continued to fight the standard and he won on the third try a couple years ago. Sadly, he was never able to fulfill his dream as he passed away from cancer about a month ago. Also of note, for those who remember the many scandals at Laughlin at the time, I was there and got to observe it all! (I actually replaced the Capt exec who was prosecuted for "Molly-gate" and got to experience the awful commanders first-hand). Needless to say, I don't have high opinions of AF Med nor a lot of people in the flying community.
That all said...7 years later I have an amazing job in tech land, wonderful home life near family, and figured out life after. Always have a backup and never give up because you never know what doors will open for you and if you give up, you may lose some awesome opportunities you never expected.
Missed this from a few months ago now. Came across something that said the Air Force is looking for contracts to replace the CCT with something else. Don't remember how soon or with what, but I it was about technical issues to make the contrast more precise and something about not having to be lined up perfectly straight with the screen or something which throws the contrast off.
AA787DRIVER
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I flew with a guy last year who graduated from the USNA and switched to USAF commissioning because he couldn't pass the Navy's vision requirements, but the USAF let him fly. 25 years ago and his Dad was a Three Star, but what a story he had.
ColorVisionWoes
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Do you guys think I should talk to a Navy recruiter and see if I can apply to flight school? Having a DQ'd flight from the AF would probably be a major turn-off...
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I think you are now talking about the Navy OCS path to naval aviation, post-college degree. Check this link, work through FAQs. Color vision is required.
F.A.Q.
Frequently Asked QuestionsOCS questions How long is OCS?Officer Candidate School is 13 weeks long. Physical training (PT) begins immediately upon arrival at OCS. PT consists of run…
applynavy.com
I think these are the current standards for naval aviation officer communities:
BUT - I am not an official source. For a definitive answer, finding a Navy officer recruiter and having a candid discussion is recommended. Color vision waivers are only given out in a small handful out of USNA, and those folks know from the get-go they aren’t going aviation, surface ships, submarines, etc. I think NROTC is even more rare, if at all, so I don’t know how Navy OCS would be. All you can do is ask and chase the option down until you know for sure.
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Another note on the “standards” link above - this may be for the “NAMI Whammy,” the flight school physical. You have to roll back to the beginning of the process for accession standards for Navy OCS and coming in as a naval aviation OC - and it will be an officer recruiter who can tell you that. Officer recruiters work out of regional Navy recruiting offices, not the local recruiting center in a shopping center. Let me go find the link for those regional offices. You would call and ask for a Navy OCS recruiter, and let them know you are interested in aviation. Of course, you’ll be candid from the start.I think you are now talking about the Navy OCS path to naval aviation, post-college degree. Check this link, work through FAQs. Color vision is required.
F.A.Q.
Frequently Asked QuestionsOCS questions How long is OCS?Officer Candidate School is 13 weeks long. Physical training (PT) begins immediately upon arrival at OCS. PT consists of run…applynavy.com
I think these are the current standards for naval aviation officer communities:
BUT - I am not an official source. For a definitive answer, finding a Navy officer recruiter and having a candid discussion is recommended. Color vision waivers are only given out in a small handful out of USNA, and those folks know from the get-go they aren’t going aviation, surface ships, submarines, etc. I think NROTC is even more rare, if at all, so I don’t know how Navy OCS would be. All you can do is ask and chase the option down until you know for sure.
Navy Talent Acquisition Group Addresses
Navy Talent Acquisition Group, formerly known as Navy Recruiting District, address, Unit Identification Code and Web site listing.
www.navycs.com
ColorVisionWoes
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Thanks Capt MJ for the links and info. I should clarify that I am not sure it would be possible to go that route because I was already a commissioned Army officer. It would be an abnormal cross-transfer, if they would even acknowledge a non-Naval commission from a different branch. Probably a discussions with an O recruiter.
From what I've read, it looks like they no longer allow the FALANT test (which I can and have passed) for color vision and instead use the CCT...Can anybody speak to this or if they would allow the FALANT under a waiver situation?
Cheers
From what I've read, it looks like they no longer allow the FALANT test (which I can and have passed) for color vision and instead use the CCT...Can anybody speak to this or if they would allow the FALANT under a waiver situation?
Cheers