Competitiveness decreasing? (2017/2018 profile)

Read the attached (directly from WP). WP doesn't think the competitiveness is decreasing. I think you're making a lot of assumptions with only a small amount of info.

http://www.usma.edu/news/Shared Documents/Class of 2018 to Enter West Point.pdf

“The Class of 2018 brings in record numbers of women, minorities and designated scholars
which makes it the most competitive and diverse class ever to enter West Point,”
said Col.
Deborah McDonald, director of admissions. “Their overall performance in academics,
leadership, athletics, and in the Army has been exceptional and provides the foundation for
successful completion of the challenging West Point experience and for service to our nation as a
commissioned leader of character.”
 
Read the attached (directly from WP). WP doesn't think the competitiveness is decreasing. I think you're making a lot of assumptions with only a small amount of info.



http://www.usma.edu/news/Shared Documents/Class of 2018 to Enter West Point.pdf



“The Class of 2018 brings in record numbers of women, minorities and designated scholars

which makes it the most competitive and diverse class ever to enter West Point,”
said Col.

Deborah McDonald, director of admissions. “Their overall performance in academics,

leadership, athletics, and in the Army has been exceptional and provides the foundation for

successful completion of the challenging West Point experience and for service to our nation as a

commissioned leader of character.”

I agree, I just posted this to encourage discussion. I think that while test scores are decreasing they may be looking for more in the "leader" category or trying to pick up more underrepresented minorities that may not have the test scores.

If anything competition is increasing for Caucasian men by a large factor. So someone falls into that category then they better shoot for the 30's.

If you are born a underrepresented minority you have a very good chance from the looks of it.



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The thing is avg is different than median. What is the median? It could be much higher than the average.

For example there are two posters here that are prior enlisted and their ACT is 23 and below. That means there will need to be 2 candidates with a 33 to get an avg of 28. If you use the median . The score could actually be 29 or higher.

Personally, if I was the typical candidate that would be the score I would want to know. Not only for appointment aspects, but also from the idea that if I was below the median, academically I might be behind the curve when it comes to classes. That in turn could impact me regarding my future.
~ Nobody wants to talk about attrition, but it does happen. I am sure somebody can give that stat, but if it is like the sister SAs, it is @20% +/-.

Getting in is step one...staying in is step two. Profs are not going to slow down the class for the few that aren't grasping the material. This is why I say the median matters more than the avg.
 
The thing is avg is different than median. What is the median? It could be much higher than the average.

For example there are two posters here that are prior enlisted and their ACT is 23 and below. That means there will need to be 2 candidates with a 33 to get an avg of 28. If you use the median . The score could actually be 29 or higher.

Personally, if I was the typical candidate that would be the score I would want to know. Not only for appointment aspects, but also from the idea that if I was below the median, academically I might be behind the curve when it comes to classes. That in turn could impact me regarding my future.
~ Nobody wants to talk about attrition, but it does happen. I am sure somebody can give that stat, but if it is like the sister SAs, it is @20% +/-.

Getting in is step one...staying in is step two. Profs are not going to slow down the class for the few that aren't grasping the material. This is why I say the median matters more than the avg.

Great observation I wish they would provide a wider array of information and statistics on the class profile. I would like to see the average applicants ACT/SAT scores, Average applicants CFA score, Amount of LOAs/LOEs, so on and so forth. It would also be nice to see the before and after plebe year candidate records. I feel as if you may see and increase in the average ACT score every time the plebe year is up from how many cadets dropped out. Of course many drop out for personal reasons, but the general consensus would probably be those who have the lower ACT scores or low physical scores.
 
Webster's dictionary: trend- to veer in a new direction or course.


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Should have clarified as I am much older than you. If you go down to definition 3 on the Merriam Webster dictionary website for trend, it says something like "general movement over time of statistically detectable change."

To me a difference between a year is a change, a similar change happens again over a year, a possible trend, a similar change happens again, a likely to be a trend.
 
I agree, I just posted this to encourage discussion. I think that while test scores are decreasing they may be looking for more in the "leader" category or trying to pick up more underrepresented minorities that may not have the test scores.

If anything competition is increasing for Caucasian men by a large factor. So someone falls into that category then they better shoot for the 30's.

If you are born a underrepresented minority you have a very good chance from the looks of it.

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Again, I think you're making a lot of assumptions about test scores, URM, Caucasian men, and female candidates based on only two class profiles. Without seeing each candidates' application, who are you to say that URM "may not have the test scores" vs Caucasian men, or that simply being an URM gives you a "very good chance." Yes, admissions does look at the WCS and each candidate's unique experiences in determining their potential success at WP, but that includes academics, sports, leadership and the ability to balance it all.

If the class of 2018 had "record numbers of designated scholars," those higher 35 ACT scores will average out (for lack of a better term) the 23 ACT scores (avg=29), and as Pima said, the median score is a better indication of competitiveness. "Record numbers of designated scholars" means more candidates with ACT/SAT scores well above the "average."
 
They do post the average...that was the 28. They are not publishing the median. That is my point.

Use a very small pool. 23, 25, 27, 28, 29,29, 30, 31, 31, 32,
The average would be 28, but the median would be 29. Imagine what the median would look like with 1200-1300 appointed. Chances are they will be higher than the avg. JMPO, so no flaming.

Median is not the average. It is the number that is the mid. If it is decreasing than the median will be decreasing. That was what I was showing with my example. The lower scores showed up less than the higher scores. Ca2mid also stated that the high end is rising, but for every 33 appointed it would mean a 23 was appointed to get to 28. Now if this was the highest record of scholars, than that should also equate into the median being higher.
~ The 23 candidate if direct appointment will be in classes with 7 or more at or above the average. Same with the 25 and 27. The 27 is close, but the other two academically according to a national test system does not have the same foundation academically as the others.
~~ It is one of the biggest reasons prep exists. They want to get their academic foundation up to par for the SA classes.

Yes, maybe USMA is doing diversity at a higher level, but I will say something one of the mods here (AFA ALO) always says when asked what is a good score to aim for?
~1600 or 36.

There are many that get an AROTC scholarship, but no appointment, and many that get an appointment, but no scholarship. The reason why is how the system works.
 
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It is no less competitive. I think the numbers reflect the growing trend in admissions to place value on a broad background and achievement in all aspects of the high school career. USMA will turn down a high number of applicants with high test scores, just like the other highly selective universities. :thumb:
 
The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender.
 
The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender.

Probably not. I'm sure the female candidates have exceptional qualifications as well.
 
Not all places are like that, I believe there is probably 1-4 cadets that are home-schooled as there are few opportunities to excel or prove yourself in. I think the others are probably club sports or martial arts participants

Virginia is one state that does not allow homeschoolers to participate in public school sports. My ds has had to work hard to find opportunities to compete (in fact that was the subject of an essay about an obstacle he overcame). Those have included club sports such as basketball and rugby, and a cross-country club that competes against private schools and other clubs. He also had to determine to be fit on his own (shows discipline), and he did very well on his PFT.

My ds does not have an appointment yet. He has presidential nominations because of my dh's service, and he also received a congressional nomination from our very competitive district in Northern Virginia. He also has been offered a type 1 ROTC scholarship, so obviously he is competitive. I would say you are right--there are going to be less qualified homeschool candidates simply because if their parents do not have military experience, then they often do not really know what they should be aiming for academically, and it is easy to fall into the trap of, "well, we're doing more than our local public school . . ." My ds has desired to be an officer since he was young and we were stationed at USAFA, so that goal has always guided his educational choices and provided motivation for him. We started a rigorous homeschool co-op to be able to provide AP classes and other advanced or more in-depth classes, because we weren't happy with the high school co-op offerings around us, and we couldn't afford all on-line classes (and didn't think an entire high school career of online classes was the best option anyway). I have my kids take standardized tests (AP or SAT 2) in as many subjects as possible to validate "mommy grades". We had ds take calculus at the community college this year to show he can handle college-level classes with no problems, although financially that wasn't an option for all his classes. These types of things are what homeschoolers do to show they are competitive, and I bet there are more of them out there that you think. Just from our circle of friends, I can think of probably 10 kids who are at or graduated from academies in the past few years!

Oh, leadership--my ds is heavily involved in Civil Air Patrol, but most of the other homeschool kids at academies that I know did boy scouts. I think that you probably have to have one or the other, or something like JROTC, to get an appointment as a homeschooler. Ds also found other areas in which to lead--for example, he helped found our chapter of the Homeschool National Honor Society, and he is serving of president of it this year. He is also in charge of our co-op activities club, planning field trips (making sure there are appropriate activities for all ages in our co-op families), social activities, service activities, etc. He coached a youth basketball team. Heck, he's the oldest of 10 kids, so he's had a ton of natural leadership experience already!

Again, knowing the kinds of boxes admissions people are trying to fill helped him know what kind of activities to make happen. I don't think it is any different than having to attend a poorly-performing high school, where you have to go out of your way to make sure you are challenged. For homeschoolers, you have to go out of your way to make sure you are challenged in all areas--academics, sports, and leadership--and I think it is impressive to academies to see kids who are not just going with the flow, doing the things they are expected to do, but are looking for ways to lead and challenge themselves. I hope as more homeschoolers are accepted to academies, more homeschoolers coming down the pipe will see what they need to do to be competitive. And there really are more and more homeschoolers in the general population now. It's a good option, especially if your local schools are underperforming, or if your family moves/travels a lot, or a bunch of other potential reasons.
 
"The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender."
That is a pretty bold statement to make. Would like to see some statistics on this! Not sure the "very large increase" has a huge statistical impact. The 2018 entering class only had 17 more females than my DD's class.
 
The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender.

Wow! Really??? I'll put my DD's numbers up against any male candidate. Please do not offend all of these exceptional, patriotic young ladies with such a statement.
 
The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender.

Well, a female applicant I know has 800 on her math SAT and 700+ on verbal.
 
These candidates are as sharp if not sharper than they ever were. Male and Female. I think someone has too much time on their hands......
 
These candidates are as sharp if not sharper than they ever were. Male and Female. I think someone has too much time on their hands......


Honestly the average could have been 28.46 for the previous years and rounded up. Maybe this year it lost .002 points to get more well rounded candidates. That's what may have happened.


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We're making some pretty interesting assumptions here. As a female URM with a 34 ACT I can tell you that neither females or URMs inherently bring down the class profile.
 
The very large increase in females in the Class of 2018 can attribute to this. The pool of female candidates are less competitive than the males. Naturally, averages will decrease when choosing less qualified individuals based solely on gender.

Pretty sure that SAT scores and achievements don't lie, and I doubt that I was given LOAs and two nominations in the state of VA based on my gender.
 
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