Concealed Carry on Texas College Campuses

[BlindROTC]

Is anyone else concerned about this? Admiral/Chancellor McRaven has explained that he is, on NPR and in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/03/us/texas-lawmakers-approve-bill-allowing-guns-on-campus.html?_r=0

Will the TAMU Corps of Cadets have to set new policies about this? Right now, my understanding is that cadets are not allowed to have guns on campus. Do the other SMCs have any experience with firearms held by cadets on campus?

 

[LineInTheSand]

Why concern?

 

[Lawman32RPD]

While reasonable minds can differ I think this is a bad idea. I own many firearms (M1A clone from Federal Ordinance, .357 Python, Heckler & Koch P9s in .45, a 1911, a K-98 Mauser clone from Spain, a Browning T bolt in left hand, a Mossberg 500, a Rossi .38, a Smith 422, a Ruger 1022, to name but a few.), I've carried firearms as a cop back in the last century; and I've picked up shooting victims back when I rode ambulances as an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT). What I can say is this; testosterone, alcohol, and youth are a bad combination. While there are exceptions virtually every assault I worked as a cop or picked up as an EMT involved alcohol or drugs and access to weapons (guns and/or knives). Somebody is angry about "A" dating "B" when they knew "C" loved/desired/had slept with "B"; it's a bad thing; or "A" is upset with "B" about something; or "A" and "B" are just fooling around - showing off - having fun without adult supervision. Even as a cop, invariably if we were having a "Choir Practice" (see Joseph Wambaugh's novel by the same name) some rook (rookie, apologies to Norwich) would pull out their new off-duty piece after a couple of adult beverages and blast off a few rounds - and they knew better. In the superheated environment of a college dorm, made all the more so by living in an SMC environment, I view it as an actuarial certainty that somebody between the ages of 18 and 21 will do something stupid. Look, this isn't new, Bruno's quote of the Bible is right on the mark, there is very little new under the sun. John Singleton Mosby got in trouble for having a gun on campus at the University of Virginia well before the Civil War; goes on to a legendary Confederate officer, and later a ranking member of the Department of Justice. The pre-Civil War Commonwealth of Virginia could hardly be called a venue of ant-gun nuts and they didn't think guns on a college campus was a good thing. I haven't read the new Texas statute but was talking with our daughter who had just finished four years as a member of the TAMU Corps as we drove home last month. She asked what would happen and I expressed these concerns. She also asked if the University or Corps would have to permit weapons and I said that it would depend on how the statute was written. If the statute says something along the lines "may" carry, then yes the University would be able to say no. However, if the statute is written along the lines of "shall be able to", then no, the University won't be able to prohibit it. I get the concern, yes you'd want a gun if there was an active shooter on campus or your dorm; but I play the odds, and I view the likelihood of an active shooter at the dorm and look at the number of TAMU police offices, let alone other local law enforcement agencies; and I weight that against the odds of someone being in their cups and doing something stupid with a gun, and I view the latter much more likely than the former. That's my thought anyway. Very Respectfully, Lawman32RPD

 

[kinnem]

I think what's changed the thinking of many people on this is the mass college shootings over the past years, Virginia Tech being just one example. We could debate it until we're blue in the face here but not come to any resolution and I'm certainly not familiar with the issues as it applies to Texas.
Additionally, what they intend to allow is concealed carry. This is not Johnny buys a gun and goes on a shooting spree. Johnny can do that anyway. BTW, Johnny can do that ebven if guns aren't permitted on campus. We're talking people who have gone through some training particularly with respect to concealed carry.

 

[Lawman32RPD]

I think what's changed the thinking of many people on this is the mass college shootings over the past years, Virginia Tech being just one example. We could debate it until we're blue in the face here but not come to any resolution and I'm certainly not familiar with the issues as it applies to Texas.
Additionally, what they intend to allow is concealed carry. This is not Johnny buys a gun and goes on a shooting spree. Johnny can do that anyway. BTW, Johnny can do that ebven if guns aren't permitted on campus. We're talking people who have gone through some training particularly with respect to concealed carry.

Everything you said is certainly true, and a great deal would depend on how the weapon would have to be secured when the incumbent went to the head, just didn't feel like being strapped and left it in the room when he went for a jog, or PT, or on a date, etc. I was cash challenged years ago (not to mention now with two kids in school) and just had the 4 inch nickel Python, and it was a chore to carry when I was off-duty, and I often didn't. I also remember coming home to the dorm one night when I was in law school in Dallas. I had really missed (still do) the challenge of street work so I was a reserve officer with the Dallas Police Department while in law school. I was in uniform coming back to my dorm, which was a small three story affair known as "Lawyers Inn" on the Southern Methodist campus up at the law school quad (Lawyers Inn isn't a dorm anymore). It was around 1-2am and a good friend was out of his room and well into his cups (it is a bar association after all) and he kept trying to pull my gun (a Smith Model 10 bull barrel .38) out of my holster - I really had to grab it and push him away with some force. Scared the daylights out of me, and I slept with my door locked that night and kept the gun locked in my after that. But everything you said is true and reasonable minds can differ about the best way to approach an issue. Regards. Lawman

 

[hokiesfan]

What I can say is this; testosterone, alcohol, and youth are a bad combination. While there are exceptions virtually every assault I worked as a cop or picked up as an EMT involved alcohol or drugs and access to weapons (guns and/or knives).

This. As to this helping in an on-campus shooting - I think it will only make already bad situations far more complicated and quite probably more deadly. My son was on campus during the second Virginia Tech shooting, in which a VT police officer was shot on campus by a gunman who then went a short distance away and committed suicide. All of this happened on the opposite side of campus from Upper Quad where the VTCC dorms are. However, a number of cadets were convinced they saw a second gunman on Upper Quad and heard shots fired near the dorms - both of which did not and could not have happened given the circumstances. The cops were looking for a young man with a gun...the last thing that would have helped were more armed young men trying to help - however well-intentioned they might be.

What did impress me was how quickly the Corps was able to account for every single cadet and verify each one was safe. Every dorm was secured, every VTCC dorm entry was monitored and every cadet was sheltering in place within minutes. *That* made me feel so much better as a parent and very grateful that my son was not on the civilian side of the school.

 

[kinnem]

I think what's changed the thinking of many people on this is the mass college shootings over the past years, Virginia Tech being just one example. We could debate it until we're blue in the face here but not come to any resolution and I'm certainly not familiar with the issues as it applies to Texas.
Additionally, what they intend to allow is concealed carry. This is not Johnny buys a gun and goes on a shooting spree. Johnny can do that anyway. BTW, Johnny can do that ebven if guns aren't permitted on campus. We're talking people who have gone through some training particularly with respect to concealed carry.

Everything you said is certainly true, and a great deal would depend on how the weapon would have to be secured when the incumbent went to the head, just didn't feel like being strapped and left it in the room when he went for a jog, or PT, or on a date, etc. I was cash challenged years ago (not to mention now with two kids in school) and just had the 4 inch nickel Python, and it was a chore to carry when I was off-duty, and I often didn't. I also remember coming home to the dorm one night when I was in law school in Dallas. I had really missed (still do) the challenge of street work so I was a reserve officer with the Dallas Police Department while in law school. I was in uniform coming back to my dorm, which was a small three story affair known as "Lawyers Inn" on the Southern Methodist campus up at the law school quad (Lawyers Inn isn't a dorm anymore). It was around 1-2am and a good friend was out of his room and well into his cups (it is a bar association after all) and he kept trying to pull my gun (a Smith Model 10 bull barrel .38) out of my holster - I really had to grab it and push him away with some force. Scared the daylights out of me, and I slept with my door locked that night and kept the gun locked in my after that. But everything you said is true and reasonable minds can differ about the best way to approach an issue. Regards. Lawman

Yeah... it would be good if they had to lock it in a safe when they weren't carrying. Portable would be OK, as long as folks can't get in it (at least the casual folks).

 

[nick4060]

I was a concealed carry license holder while also being a cadet at Virginia Tech. While it wasn't necessarily illegal to carry on campus, it was certainly in violation of school policy.

I personally think its misguided to think that making college campuses "gun free zones" will make students safer. This has been disproven time and again, as criminals intent on committing mass murder will not abide by a law or school policy banning firearms. For four years, I lived ~100 yards from the place where Cho murdered almost 30 people. He wasn't stopped by VT's "no guns" policy. Nor was he stopped by the police. He could have, however, been stopped by a law-abiding and responsibly armed student/teacher in Norris Hall. These no-gun policies do not stop crimes. They only turn law-abiding citizens with carry permits into potential victims. I have immense respect for people in law enforcement, but they cannot be in all places at once.

When I was a student at VT, the law allowed me to carry all day down main street. But God forbid I would have taken a single step across the street onto campus property...at that point I'd have been in violation of school policy and considered some sort of criminal. Is there risk associated with allowing armed citizens on campus? Yes, of course. But there is no more risk than that which is associated with carry anywhere else in the state. What makes concealed carry in a Virginia college so much different from concealed carry in a Virginia super market, movie theater, or restaurant?

 

[BLUF]

And the facts are: Firearms are available. Bad guys carry concealed illegally. ISIS/ISIL is targeting military. British soldier was run over with a car and then had his head cut off in England couple of years ago. Cadets have bayonets in dorm rooms. In Virginia, Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) permit holders need to be 21 years old. I have a CCW permit, but I do not carry all the time. Keeping your firearm secured when it is with you and away from you is a habit. I don't think making it legal creates a more dangerous situation than currently exists, and could be a good guy stopping a bad guy. This would have been helpful in the Colorado movie theater when the unarmed Navy Seals and others were killed. This would have been helpful when the unarmed soldiers were killed in Ft. Hood. How many lives could have been saved in these gun free zones had the laws been different. I believe that the risk of gun free murderers outweighs the danger of an accident from legal CCW.

 

[MemberLG]

Good points, however my opinion this is not a discussion about "testosterone, alcohol, and youth, " "Firearms are available," "Gun Free Zone," and etc. This discussion is about our 2nd amendment rights. Are some rights less important that other rights? Why do some folks care more about the 1st or 4th amendment rights but not the 2nd amendment rights? Just like any rights, the 2nd amendment rights are not absolute. But, it cannot be denied either. Think about some folks that are allowed to carry/conceal carry guns where average citizens are not allowed to carry - airline pilots and retired police officers. How right to life different from right to self defense?

 

[MedB]

Yeah... it would be good if they had to lock it in a safe when they weren't carrying. Portable would be OK, as long as folks can't get in it (at least the casual folks).

I know it' a bit off the Concealed Carry thread topic, but something like this thought above is what I always wondered about....

Why don't the SA's and SMCs that have them, consider provisions for having students keep personal weapons locked up at the CATM range?

 

[nick4060]

Yeah... it would be good if they had to lock it in a safe when they weren't carrying. Portable would be OK, as long as folks can't get in it (at least the casual folks).

I know it' a bit off the Concealed Carry thread topic, but something like this thought above is what I always wondered about....

Why don't the SA's and SMCs that have them, consider provisions for having students keep personal weapons locked up at the CATM range?

At Virginia Tech there was a policy allowing students to store personally owned weapons at the campus police department. I knew a few people who did this. However, most of us would just keep our weapons with friends who lived off campus. For four years, I kept all of my firearms at my girlfriend's (now my wife) apartment.

 

[MemberLG]

Why don't the SA's and SMCs that have them, consider provisions for having students keep personal weapons locked up at the CATM range?

When I was at West Point, Cadets could store their personal weapons in the Arms Room. But, how can someone depend themselves with a gun, if it is stored somewhere?

 

[Full Metal Bulldog]

At my SMC one is allowed to store weapons in the school armory, but the paperwork and protocol mess required to store it and take it out/bring it back equates to most people just keeping their weapons in their vehicle.

 

[Wilco]

Reminds of high school when we would go hunting for an hour or so before school, drive to school, change and leave our hunting clothes and guns in trucks or cars in parking lot; then go after school if you could. Federal offense if you do that today.

 

[BLUF]

I hope the "No Firearms Sign" on the door did not cost 4 marines their lives today. This on the same day that the Colorado Movie Theater shooter was convicted for shooting off duty Navy Seals among many others in a "Gun Free" Theater. Seems this "Gun Free" Law/Concept when applied to Licensed CCW or Military is costing more lives than it is intended to prevent from harm.