Concerns Regarding New USAFA SAMI/AMI standards - Parent's reactions

[Luigi59]

WThis is why when individuals on the forums question academy policies and the likes, that it is met with "backlash". 1) You're not at the academy or in the military, so it's none of your business.

Unfortunately this blind loyalty to "all things academy or military" doesn't always end well, hence questioning their policies leads to improvement or change.

I'm not saying this case is one of these times (are we really complaining about the lack of a refrigerator?) but the "the academy knows best, stay out of it" mentality has led to quite a few scandals inside that were not solved until civilian oversight was stepped up.

 

[jbsail]

Luigi, You forgot to read this portion from CC....And if anything happens at the academy or in the military that affects their health, safety, rights, etc...; then as a parent, AND as a Tax Payer, you have every right to be concerned.

Unfortunately this blind loyalty to "all things academy or military" doesn't always end well, hence questioning their policies leads to improvement or change.

I'm not saying this case is one of these times (are we really complaining about the lack of a refrigerator?) but the "the academy knows best, stay out of it" mentality has led to quite a few scandals inside that were not solved until civilian oversight was stepped up.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

We now live in an era where people can post something on a forum in passing. 25 years ago it might have been mentioned it at a restaurant in passing on Academy Boulevard. Parents of Cadets could be chatting with coaches or parents at the dinner table discussing the logic of a specific decision. No one would rip Wing77 "a new one" in person for mentioning this. That would be rude.

I'm sure Wing77 wasn't trying to intervene to get fridges in his DD's room. Wing77 simply didn't understand the logic. From an outsider looking in, if athletes can improve they strength or endurance, wouldn't that make sense to allow them additional protein and healthier vegetables? After all, recruited athletes have less policies in place currently because they are expected to perform at a higher physical levels for their team. I suspect that was Wing77's point.

I'd answer this a little differently: It's the same logic why phones were taken away, why freshman have to walk along a strips, why they get "beat", etc. This isn't a regular college but a military Academy. The Academy's intentionally puts obstacles in place to make people figure out ways to accomplish their goals. They want them follow the chain of command to initiate changes. Because of it you will be mentally stronger, less bothered by silly decisions etc.

It may be clear to others because they have been surrounded by the Academy for years. Not so much for families who are new to this. If Wing77 understands the logic better, he then might be able to toughen up his DD on this and other topics versus hearing from others "it's none of your business because your DD is now in the military". For most Cadets, going to an Academy is a year of transition. Parents will have influence over their Cadets for a year or more. It's why the Academy has a liaison for parents groups. The AFA understands that this is a transition.

I look at it this way, even at the age of 18, the decision to attend an Academy many times was a family decision and continues even after they sign on the dotted line. The apron string won't be fully cut the day they enter. I don't think it should be.

We agree. It isn't my business how the Academy decides how to run things especially SAMI details. For that matter, it isn't my business what my wife's employers policies happens to be. That doesn't change the fact that I talk with my family on what they are going though. At work, at school, in their relationships, etc. I might share that logic with other like minded people in passing as well just like Wing77 did.

Additionally, I've talked with my parents well into my 40's to get their opinion. I predict my DD and DS to continue to talk with me well into their 40's. Maybe they just want to talk and they don't want my opinion. For me at least, I talked with my parents a 3-4 times a year when I felt I needed their input. It wasn't a continuous "lifeline". I don't want my kids to lean on me 24-7.

 

[AHS74]

My DD, a 3C, called last night. They were briefed yesterday on the new rules. She said they are not that different than before, not a big deal.

 

[Pima]

MN-Dad-2016

I do not disagree with you at all, BUT 1 position, which I think CC and myself are saying. When exactly do you cut the apron strings? Is it when they sign their commitment? When they take their career starter loan? When they get their AFSC? When they commission? When they report to their 1st duty station?

As I stated I cut 1 when all of my children graduated from HS. Their sr. yr. the comment that was pounded into their cranium was: "I am not going to college with you next yr. you forget something this yr. I can take it to you at school, next yr you are on your own"

I think also for some that have a connection to the ADAF, and the enlisted world, see it differently. These kids are the exact same age, and most likely with less pocket money at the end of the month than the cadet. They have bills like car, insurance, etc. that a cadet doesn't have. Many because they want to do the right thing get married and have 2 dependents at 19. Their life choices and I get it, but I am trying to say, they are the same age as the cadet. They are making it work. Surely, AFA cadets with 1600 SAT scores, 3.9 uwcgpa, Eagle Scout, Varsity Captain can survive.

Yes, it is parents finding other parents to discuss this issue, because on this forum we get the lifestyle. As parents your friends, siblings, don't get this life. They probably heard negative comments or had no support from them...i.e. he/she has a free education, gets a stipend, has a guaranteed job out of college, but cry me a river because they can't have a fridge while my kid (your nephew) is 50K in debt with loans, no monthly allowance, except for what he saved working over the summer, and with @ 8.0% unemployment job perspectives are limited. We get you will see them a lot less than they will because it is a full time job in a way compared to their kids, but he is debt free with a job after graduation from an Ivy school. Seriously, even friends that had kids graduate with your child will remember that big check awarded to them as a HS sr. Woe is my child when they recall the 400K spiel in front of every classmate and parent doesn't go far over a flipping fridge while they are rubbing nickels together to reduce the debt their child will have for attending their dream college...again personal choice, but money issues are the fastest way to lose a relationship.

They came here because they felt we would get it. We do get it, but when you look at the big pic., the fridge is nothing.

As an AF wife of an O5 retired, the biggest stress in our marriage was not the AF. It was Bullet's mother. God rest her soul.

She never cut the apron strings until Bullet finally said enough. He started shielding her from part of his life because she didn't get he was an adult. We will always be their parent. We will always worry about them. We will always want to make their path easier. However, it is their life, not ours. As children we respect our parents. I talk to my Mom probably 100 times a yr. I could go weeks without talking, and than weeks of talking everyday. I confide in her, not because I feel the need, but because I want to. She rarely gives me advice. She always listens, and says PIMA, you must have faith, and believe this is your path. That is after she said what did Bullet say????

Her two motto's are:
The best In Law makes themselves an outlaw
I don't pay their bills.

Something, now as an O1 Mom I embrace.

When our children were born we had dreams of them being a success and leaving the nest. The minute we held them we saw this amazing future regarding everything they could be. When they took that oath, it was the proudest day of our life because as parents we did our job. If you believe that, than you must believe they left the nest, and thus the apron string was cut.

Like I said, I cut 1 when DS left for AFROTC in 08. When Bullet administered DS's oath last May, I cut the other. The apron is still there, and he can grab on to it, but it his life now.

This is not the AF Bullet joined in 88. This is DS's AF. What worked for Bullet is anecdotal, and the only good we do for him is letting him vent; understanding it was a bad day. Letting him know no matter what we are proud whatever comes, but it is his life.

Support and heloing IMPO are two different things. Backlash here was a kind way to say time to differentiate between the two.

JMPO, but fridge issues are heloing. Navigating DoDMERB and waivers when your child leaves for school at 7 a.m. EST, and doesn't get home until 7 p.m. because of sports is support.

 

[Packer]

I also laugh because the fact is most of us parents went to college and small fridges in our rooms was just becoming the new thing. We all survived. Back in our stone age we had to actually go to the library, and use microfiche to find articles to support our defense in an essay, we didn't have Google and could do it from the top of our bed on a laptop, while simultaneously watching tv. We all survived just fine, so why the heartburn over something they can't have when you didn't have it either and managed to live?

I think this may violate the Geneva Convention.

I'm sure Wing77 wasn't trying to intervene to get fridges in his DD's room. Wing77 simply didn't understand the logic. From an outsider looking in, if athletes can improve they strength or endurance, wouldn't that make sense to allow them additional protein and healthier vegetables? After all, recruited athletes have less policies in place currently because they are expected to perform at a higher physical levels for their team. I suspect that was Wing77's point.

They are cadets first and athletes second that is all the logic there is.

 

[navy83]

I might be unusual but I see merit to both sides of this discussion.

I agree with Luigi that ALL government institutions need transparency - and as a taxpayer it is in our interest to have completely open government with the obvious exceptions. Sometime this extends beyond health and safety - because if we draw line too narrowly we risk lack of transparency.

I agree with the other posters as well. As a parent, my DS doesn't discuss these policies referred to in this posting with me and handles the change in his own way. Until I read this post I didn't even know any changes were being contemplated - and even if I had learned of the changes I'm not sure any impact would have registered with me since I don't have to live under them.

I don't want to have input into how our Service Academies are run. I do hope and will encourage my DS when he makes major life changing decisions, e.g., college major, commitment, etc, that he seeks counsel from those with experience (including in some areas his parents, if he wants) so he can be comfortable moving forward after making his decision and importantly so that he makes the best decision for himself.

In my professional and personal life I try and make major life changing decisions myself by seeking the best counsel at the time that I have access to. This always seemed to provided an advantage for me and I HOPE my DS has learned from this and does likewise.

As for the mom who started this post I believe she is just trying to do the best by her DD, and I hope we can understand that not everyone who posts on here has the same in-depth experience with the military. I mainly have be a "lurker" on this forum but I have gained a vast amount of knowledge and have used all of you as my counsel over the past two years. I thank everyone for that.

 

[MedB]

As one of the new members here my perspective is a bit different...

First, I can assure you that no one... NO ONE... on this forum or any other would accuse me of not holding my children accountable. In fact, my children have a running joke with their friends about the TV show "World's Strictest Parents" being a total joke compared to their parents and lives. And for all of that, thank God, my kids are incredibly well adjusted and truly deep-down happy. I mention this only so the "anti helo-parent police" have some context.

Now... We might really want to consider the message sent when you make it your personal business to tell someone else that the issue they care about isn't their personal business.

Do I think it's a big deal there are no fridges or golf clubs? Umm... NO. My children have already, and will continitue to, face far worse deprivations in their life. But to insert yourself into how someone else parents and pass judgement on them for even bringing up the topic...? That is where I get off the train.

 

[Pima]

I get your point, but let's flip it for a second.

This is not 4 yrs of their lives, it is 9 at best. (4 AFA + 5 ADAF).

It will eat you alive if you worry about every AF policy. You think now as a C4C this is the hardest point, afterall they made it through appointment and BCT, guess what you are so wrong!

I would love to be a Mom of a 19 yr old again, not the Mom knowing every flight at iFS, and uPT could mean the make or break of their dreams.

I don't want to be in their personal decisions. If they want to worry about fridges, that is their choice, however, I get the other posters positions. If this is an issue, buckle up because 8 more yrs of your life will make you cry just to return to this topic.

Is it wrong for us to acknowledge that? Should we just post, I get it and pump them with support? AFA is wrong, wooaah is the cadet. Or should we say, in the big scheme, seriously, is this worth even the start of the thread... New Rules: my kid can't have a mini-fridge at the AFA!

You can't have fruit because of a fridge...I keep bananas on my kitchen counter...no fridge. Apples, oranges, etc need no refrigeration. chicken breasts? How many do you need? Obviously it must be cooked, are you eating it at 8 pm or 5 am? Talk to the coach if you are a recruited athlete. They can assist you to guarantee you are getting the right amount of nutrients per day.

So now we settled that, again tell me why you need a fridge as the avg cadet?

Look in your own fridge...what is it filled with that must be refrigerated? Mine...cheese, certain veggies, condiments and milk. Meat is in the freezer. Otherwise, I am good to go and that is for a family where I make dinner. If dinner was supplied 7 days a week, 3 times a day. I could have a family of 5 live on a mini-fridge! Heck, I could live without it.

Than again, rule in my house is once I am done with cleaning up from dinner...dishwasher loaded...kitchen is closed. No night time snacking if it means making a dish dirty! 7:30 and it is closed.

 

[Wing77]

I'm sorry that you don't understand this. I'm sorry that you don't understand the military. Most of all; I'm sorry that you feel that somehow, the policies that go on at the academy are somehow YOUR BUSINESS..... IT'S NOT.

This is why when individuals on the forums question academy policies and the likes, that it is met with "backlash". 1) You're not at the academy or in the military, so it's none of your business. (Just like you worrying about the policies at AT&T are non of your business unless you're an employee there); and 2). THIS IS NOT COLLEGE!!!

Christcorp - I respect you and think you add a great deal to discussions here. But I can't understand the suggestion that because I am not in the military I cannot understand military issues and should not express concern or opinions on military topics. I am not in the postal service, the white house/executive branch, or Congress - yet I have opinions and express concerns about postal service viability, our foreign and domestic policy, and the laws our legislature passes. I would hazard a guess that you do too. Democracy is advanced citizenship - and I would suggest back to you that it is an obligation of our citizens to try to understand and contribute discussion on all governmental decisions/policies - military being just one of many. (Please note that I am not suggesting the fridge is a matter of national concern here - it was simply on the topic of this post originally).

As to other issues suggested about cutting the apron strings, I think people are confusing two issues - (1) parents' opinions on topics, and (2) how parents interact with their cadets and the Academy. I will care about the well being of my children until my last breath. I will always want them to be healthy, make good choices, be in a positive environment, and serve others. Because I have opinions on those topics does NOT mean I am not letting them make their way and live their own lives. Like most here, I have never once contacted the Academy or anyone associated with the Academy - from admissions down the line. My daughter did it all and continues to do it all - with very little contact with us. Caring is not synonymous with not letting go - the two can exist side by side.

Navy83 correctly notes that there is, like most things, merit on all sides. I will leave it as I stated previously: (1) The policy does not make sense in my opinion (minor as it is), and (2) My opinion matters not a bit - which I'm OK with, but still like to express.

 

[aglages]

Do I think it's a big deal there are no fridges or golf clubs? Umm... NO. My children have already, and will continitue to, face far worse deprivations in their life. But to insert yourself into how someone else parents and pass judgement on them for even bringing up the topic...? That is where I get off the train.

X2
I will say that some of the USAFA Parent Facebook pages seem to be better suited for this kind of stuff. Lots of worried moms and prayer groups.

 

[Blackbird]

Really? Are we still arguing about golf clubs and mini-fridges?

 

[Christcorp]

Luigi: This isn't about blind trust. For the tax payer; they should care about the health, safety, rights, etc... of the military personnel. As well as FWA of funds and other aspects of the military. And we should definitely speak up if appropriate. The "OTHER" things, which are policies, standards, etc... in nature, can and should be addressed "If there's a concern", by the members it affects. In this case, the military members.
**********************************
Wing77: You just don't get it, and I'm sorry for that. ALL of your examples about the post office, legislature, congress, etc... affects you DIRECTLY. Each of those individuals WORK FOR YOU!!! You are THEIR EMPLOYER!!! The represent you.

But what we're talking about is definitely about parents who won't cut the apron strings. Nothing more or less. You think for some reason, that your children are STILL YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. They aren't. If your child graduated high school; didn't want to go to college or the military; and moved to Florida to work on a Charter Fishing Boat; would you be calling up or trying to get involved with the Charter company and some of the rules, policies, etc... they have that affects your son/daughter??? No, you wouldn't. You know it and I know it. If your son/daughter stayed at home and got a job at Mini-Mart and complained to you about their work schedule, dress code, or some other thing, would you call up the manager of the Mini-Mart or email them about some of their policies? No, you wouldn't. You know it, and I know it.

There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE with your son/daughter joining the military. They didn't "GO OFF TO COLLEGE". They joined the military. You can care about them and their well being until your last breath; but you don't need to use those breaths to interfere in their life. As I mentioned to Luigi above; as a taxpayer and in your case, a parent; if something is affecting the health, safety, welfare, rights, etc... of your cadet, airman, officer, etc..., and/or you have issues with fraud, waste, abuse, mismanagement of funds, etc... then as a taxpayer/parent you have every right in the world to address the issue. WHERE you address it SHOULD be with your congressman. They ARE YOUR REPRESENTATION. But local policies, rules, standards, etc... at the academy, which you wouldn't care LESS ABOUT if you didn't have a son/daughter there; is absolutely NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. If your son/daughter have a problem with a rule, policy, standards, etc... they HAVE a method in place.

I think that's part of the problem.

1) Parents think their children/cadets still NEED THEM....... THEY DON'T!!! They may WANT YOU, but they don't NEED YOU.
2) Parents don't realize that their children/cadets have a venue to dispute, argue, disagree, complain, etc... any rule, policy, standard, etc... they have a problem with.

The point is: Your CHILDREN/CADET are the ones that can address any local policy, rule, standard, etc... that they have an issue with. NOT YOU the parent.

And Pima and I have brought up the question: WHEN DO YOU CUT THE APRON STRINGS??? Obviously, you haven't yet. Question; if your son/daughter was an O-3 (Captain). Been through pilot training or whatever their job is. Been in the military for 8 years. Got married and has 2 kids. Would you be concerned with ORI (Operational Readiness Inspections)? Would you care if your son/daughter and wife/husband/kids lived in base housing and the base was making them move 3 times in 4 months so they could do renovations??? In other words: At what point do you say; my son/daughter is an adult. If they have a problem with the military, their job, their boss, their neighbor, etc... they will have to work it out themselves??? That's what this is all about.

 

[burnerafter16]

Maybe if the OP's C2C gets wind of this discussion caused by his/her whining, he/she'll learn how it's perceived not just by his mom but also by others and in the future deal with the issue proactively rather than complain to mommy back home.

 

[Stealth_81]

X2
I will say that some of the USAFA Parent Facebook pages seem to be better suited for this kind of stuff. Lots of worried moms and prayer groups.

I think that Aglages hit it right on the head.

I have belonged to the 2011 USAFA Parents groups on Yahoo and Facebook for as long as I have been on here. I have seen many petty issues get discussed and that is fine because sometimes parents need to vent. I usually just read them and let them vent away.

The reaction that this post got here has a lot to do with the type of site that SAF is designed to be. This site's purpose is to help young people navigate the complexities of applying to and getting appointed to the various commissioning programs of the US military, Homeland Security, and the DOT. The people here have a vast knowledge of the process, but being that they have a lot of military experience they may not have much patience for the helicoptering.

I think we can just let this issue rest and understand that different sites have different purposes.

Stealth_81

 

[navy83]

I get your point, but let's flip it for a second.

This is not 4 yrs of their lives, it is 9 at best. (4 AFA + 5 ADAF).

It will eat you alive if you worry about every AF policy. You think now as a C4C this is the hardest point, afterall they made it through appointment and BCT, guess what you are so wrong!

I would love to be a Mom of a 19 yr old again, not the Mom knowing every flight at iFS, and uPT could mean the make or break of their dreams.

I don't want to be in their personal decisions. If they want to worry about fridges, that is their choice, however, I get the other posters positions. If this is an issue, buckle up because 8 more yrs of your life will make you cry just to return to this topic.

Is it wrong for us to acknowledge that? Should we just post, I get it and pump them with support? AFA is wrong, wooaah is the cadet. Or should we say, in the big scheme, seriously, is this worth even the start of the thread... New Rules: my kid can't have a mini-fridge at the AFA!

You can't have fruit because of a fridge...I keep bananas on my kitchen counter...no fridge. Apples, oranges, etc need no refrigeration. chicken breasts? How many do you need? Obviously it must be cooked, are you eating it at 8 pm or 5 am? Talk to the coach if you are a recruited athlete. They can assist you to guarantee you are getting the right amount of nutrients per day.

So now we settled that, again tell me why you need a fridge as the avg cadet?

Look in your own fridge...what is it filled with that must be refrigerated? Mine...cheese, certain veggies, condiments and milk. Meat is in the freezer. Otherwise, I am good to go and that is for a family where I make dinner. If dinner was supplied 7 days a week, 3 times a day. I could have a family of 5 live on a mini-fridge! Heck, I could live without it.

Than again, rule in my house is once I am done with cleaning up from dinner...dishwasher loaded...kitchen is closed. No night time snacking if it means making a dish dirty! 7:30 and it is closed.

Pima it appears that your children have been taught to be very independent and that is admirable and reflects well on not only your children but the job you did as a parent.

I hope my children are independent as well and I believe based on their accomplishments that they are and have likewise done well.

I am a very direct person like yourself but I have realized that in sometimes being so direct I take shortcuts and make assumptions based on what I am not always certain about. I try hard not to do that.

Wing77 has indicated she was stating her opinion and has never interfered during her DD's time at the USAFA - I take her at her word. Furthermore, one of the benefits I have found on these forums is the willingness of wonderful people like yourself to help others.

I don't know that Wing77's DD didn't seek her out for advice. I also don't know that Wing77's DD might have health issues that triggered this discussion that she is not comfortable discussing in an open forum. Or are there other very reasonable reasons? The point is I'm not in a position to make that judgment because I don't know all the details.

I do value your's and other posters advice about not being a helicopter parent. I believe I follow that advice. The problem is just because someone expresses an opinion or is interested in their grown child's life doesn't mean they are a helicopter parent. Joseph Kennedy was a large part of John F. Kennedy's life and career well into adulthood - was he a helicopter parent? Certainly one can argue that Kennedy would not have become POTUS without his father's involvement in his adult life.

I believe the balance of how involved a parent is with their young adult is a personal decision between the parent and young adult. If the parent is overbearing - the young adult may have issues. This is an issue between the child/parent/USAF leadership.

I like you with your mother valued my relationship with my parent and because of my respect for their experience in life used them as a sounding board and to seek their advice on specific matters over the years. I am likewise glad to see that Wing 77 is interested in her DD's life.

 

[Wing77]

CC - Apparently you don't "get it" on three issues:

1. The military works for me too, and I am its employer. You have apparently lost sight of this. The military is simply another arm of the federal government - and reports to a civilian. It's been this way since the beginning. And that's what makes us different than most of the rest of the world.

2. You should examine the tone of your post about things YOU know nothing about. You know nothing about my relationship with my daughter - except for the fact that I plainly stated that I have never contacted anyone at the academy, nor would I ever. She's an adult and can handle herself. I have fortunately taught her not to generalize about people she does not know and to not make assumptions about things she does not know to be true.

3. This is a forum to express thoughts and opinions.

 

[Christcorp]

Unfortunately, I don't think you read my posts. Your feelings and emotions were so involved, you didn't read what I wrote. You have every right to question the military if you believe the health, safety, rights, etc... of a military member is at risk. Or other issues such as fraud, waste, abuse, etc.... You are correct. You are a tax payer and they work for you. And I also said that you have a venue for those concerns. "Your Congressional Representative". I also mentioned that when it comes to internal/local policies, procedures, rules, standards, etc... that in those areas you don't have any business getting involved. Unless you are a member of the military. But obviously, you don't want to read or discuss these points. There's nothing wrong with the tone of my posts. If you don't understand, then you can't agree. That can be very frustrating. I understand that very well. Sometimes I get frustrated when I don't understand what a person is trying to convey.

I think I agree with aglages and stealth. There are different sites for different purposes. Maybe a parent's site, a Facebook site, etc... A place more designed to handle the day to day concerns of cadet/military life that some parents have. A place that can be touchy/feely. Those are the type of forums where someone can vent because their child isn't allowed to use their cell phone or they are the last group through semester finals because of classes and can't leave the academy until the 21st.

 

[kinnem]

OK folks. Time to cease and desist. Everyone's made their points and there is some disagreement as there often is. Just because people disagree doesn't mean the arguments on either side are misunderstood. They might be understood very well but because of a different point of view there is still disagreement. I don't think there is anything further to gain by carrying on about this.

 

[LineInTheSand]

But we can all agree that an issue with golf clubs and mini-fridges is so "Air Force".... right?