Dep Dant is trying to fry all the Black N members who wore their sweaters to Halloween

Some day the OP and other mids will be leaders in the Fleet. You will do things and make decisions that the men and women you lead don't like/don't agree with. It's called leadership, not "friendship" for a reason.

This! DD, a youngster, sometimes comments/complains about leadership, whether it be the Dant or a company officer or a coach. And I counsel her that the easiest thing in the world is to whine about leadership. The hardest thing is to actually practice leadership. So I try to guide her to better understand the leader’s style and motive, because there’s usually a reason beyond “he/she is a jerk.” There may be something to learn — good or bad — for when she’s in a similar situation. Above all, I encourage her to be empathetic to the leader. That person may be right or wrong, but leadership, for all its glory, can be a b!tch.
 
Complaining amongst the "troops" is a fact of life and quite normal. Not sure if this is universal, but we always said "the only happy Marine is a complaining Marine".

Non-NCO's will ***** about NCO's who complain about Staff NCO's while Lieutenants complain about Captains who ***** about Majors...
 
This! ...That person may be right or wrong, but leadership, for all its glory, can be a b!tch.

Glory?! There was glory available?! Dang it all, I must have missed that. Oh, well, yes, getting bonged aboard was always secretly rather fun to hear. All the glory belonged to the officers and enlisted personnel when missions were accomplished and goals were met. There is nothing on earth like that feeling when everyone and everything works as it should. All the responsibility and accountability accrue to the leader, for all things good or bad.

I remember the sleepless nights worried about decisions made, decisions pending, about whether I was being consistent and fair, about whether to give someone a second (or fifth) chance, how to get through to a struggling JO, knowing I had to fire my CMC the next morning, how to best communicate a decision I knew would be unpopular with the troops but the right thing for the command, when to sortie ships in advance of a hurricane, making operational decisions in chaotic situations with the game face locked on and a churning gut, keeping my own thoughts out of it when relaying directives from on high I disagreed with, mourning deeply when death occurred during my watch, feeling like Ben Hur in the chariot race in the arena wondering when the wheels were going to come off - and always, always wanting to do the right thing, even when it was a bit murky about what exactly that was.

I have no doubt the leadership at USNA struggles with these challenges.


“Mountaintops inspire leaders, but valleys mature them.”
- Winston Churchl

USNA midshipmen are slogging through the valley.

To be absolutely clear, I loved being in command - the challenge, the hard work, the joy and honor of working with hugely talented and dedicated shipmates, the feeling that this is what I had worked so hard for and what I was meant to do, despite aforementioned challenges and mental/physical exhaustion!
 
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Things change, for better or worse. I get a kick on the plebe parent FB page. Parents are quick to complain about the Dant and how he has changed things. These peoples' kids are plebes. They don't know any better. They have nothing to compare it to.
I haven't seen many complaints about the Dant on the plebe FB page, but keep in mind, some of "these people" have had a Mid at USNA consecutively for the past decade, and some of "these people" are USNA grads, so they might actually have a good read on past and current leadership. Also, some of "these people" are on this forum, just sayin...
 
For those with 100+ demerits, why would you want to glorify that 'achievement'? I can understand the banning of wearing the sweaters, tradition or not.
 
Here’s a background story on the Black N tradition. It’s from the early 2000’s but still accurate in the main. There is a photo of the sweater.



Here’s another story from the Annapolis newspaper:




It’s tradition, but one of those of which USNA officially doesn’t approve. The place is often described as one big game of cops and robbers, with the joke being the robbers all end up as cops. It’s a quirky bit of perversity that is essentially nyah-nyah-ing by the “bad kids” back at the Administration.

There is a big difference in accumulating demerits for administrative infractions (failure to register for classes on time, etc.) as opposed to Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) criminal offenses or honor issues.

With the advent of social media and the ability to blast out images in a matter of seconds, USNA is far more sensitive to the image this can create. It was a lot harder to take a photo with a film camera and get it printed and mail it somewhere prior to internet and smartphones.

USNA cannot be seen to condone the tradition. It may or may not be the Dant driving this. It could be SECNAV saying, “I don’t want to see this Black N stuff again.” There are always people who point to the SAs and say “Why are we funding these money pits instead of doing NROTC at a fraction of the cost, when we see this Black N stuff? Clearly these mids don’t value what they are getting and don’t take it seriously. If they are indeed ‘the best and the brightest,’ they will do fine in NROTC.”

There are many Fleet and Corps traditions that have not survived or have been toned down as sensibilities changed about what is acceptable and with the advent of technology that allows everyone to see what’s going on.
 
For those with 100+ demerits, why would you want to glorify that 'achievement'? I can understand the banning of wearing the sweaters, tradition or not.

It's probably hard to understand if you haven't been one of the inmates, but the Black N is something of a badge of honor to those that earned it. (By the way, I think the criteria is 100+ demerits and not getting kicked out). These are the guys/girls who have stretched the limits of conduct as far as they could. As I said before, there is usually a good story behind it, but there is a lot of pain --including many days/months on restriction, mustering several times every day for inspection by the OOW. Those that are serving long terms kind of grow a bound, and getting through it is something of an accomplishment. I think that bond , and the glorification grows as time passes (I hear alot of the stories at Reunions). There was a post above about people on conduct probation getting fried for wearing a sweater...that's probably not good headwork (kinda like the kid getting spanked by their parent and telling them that it didn't hurt !)

For the record, I was not a member of the club ....I can count the times I got Fried on one hand (all as a Plebe), but did get to experience Restriction for a few days before the 1981 Army Navy game (a great story involving a Rumble in the back shaft with our First Class when I was a plebe). However, I did get to observe up close when my Roomate got a Class A for going out to College Park late First class year -- I don't recall whether he actually earned the Black N, but it was close. Oh, and yeah... I do have some experience about getting spanked and telling my dad it didn't hurt !
 
I haven't seen many complaints about the Dant on the plebe FB page, but keep in mind, some of "these people" have had a Mid at USNA consecutively for the past decade, and some of "these people" are USNA grads, so they might actually have a good read on past and current leadership. Also, some of "these people" are on this forum, just sayin...
I was referring to the plebes not knowing any better.

Just sayin...
 
It's probably hard to understand if you haven't been one of the inmates, but the Black N is something of a badge of honor to those that earned it. (By the way, I think the criteria is 100+ demerits and not getting kicked out). These are the guys/girls who have stretched the limits of conduct as far as they could. As I said before, there is usually a good story behind it, but there is a lot of pain --including many days/months on restriction, mustering several times every day for inspection by the OOW. Those that are serving long terms kind of grow a bound, and getting through it is something of an accomplishment. I think that bond , and the glorification grows as time passes (I hear alot of the stories at Reunions). There was a post above about people on conduct probation getting fried for wearing a sweater...that's probably not good headwork (kinda like the kid getting spanked by their parent and telling them that it didn't hurt !)

For the record, I was not a member of the club ....I can count the times I got Fried on one hand (all as a Plebe), but did get to experience Restriction for a few days before the 1981 Army Navy game (a great story a Rumble in the back shaft with our First Class when I was a plebe). However, I did get to observe up close when my Roomate got a Class A for going out to College Park late First class year -- I don't recall whether he actually earned the Black N, but it was close. Oh, and yeah... I do have some experience about getting spanked and telling my dad it didn't hurt !
A good friend (best man at my wedding) was a Black N "winner" (never heard of Black N Sweaters in the 70's) and had a pretty good career and made flag. As a one star he found himself in a meeting with a then four star who had been the Conduct Officer who actually "fried" him and gave him the Class A/Black N.
Yes, the four star remembered! and I don't think that it was with fondness.
 
I was referring to the plebes not knowing any better.

Just sayin...
You specifically said “parents are quick to complain about the Dant...” I was simply pointing out that there is a good size group of legacy parents and grad parents on that page, so just because their plebes may not know better, the parents might. But honestly this topic has rarely come up.
 
Thanks for all the replies, it’s nice to hear the OG’s pass on some good gouge. A lot of anger stems from the fact that they were told they could wear it by the brigade XO who said they had Dant staff approval. Most of them are going to get very low level minor offenses for it but those on LOI for conduct probation may go straight to the Dant for a separation board. They are also keeping any adjudications from it out of the hands of the company officers, I think because most would probably dismiss it.

Sounds like Brigade XO 1. definitely didn't run this by the Dant (the only member of Dant staff that really matters), and 2. made promises he had no ability to keep.

You can't openly flaunt MIDREGs and also believe conduct action is unreasonable. My 1/C year they fried mids for taking cereal from King Hall outside of meal hours. Imagine facing separation, the last straw being that box of Cinnamon Toast Crunch taken at 2000 one night. When the Dant tells you to not to do something, and you do it, what do you expect will happen?
 
You can't openly flaunt MIDREGs and also believe conduct action is unreasonable.
When the Dant tells you to not to do something, and you do it, what do you expect will happen?

Is the Black N sweater specifically prohibited in MIDNREGS or an official directive ? I don't recall the Black N sweater ever being officially recognized. If there is a specific directive, I agree 100% and frankly would expect it to be higher level offense. However, if the offense is something less specific (i.e. conduct to the detriment of good order and discipline), I have a little trouble squaring this with (what at least used to be ) the free for all , hair lettting down, Halloween dinner. That said, I'm not the 'Dant (which is a good thing, there would probably be a lot more b!tchin going on !), and I suspect there is a good reason for the 'Dant's action.

CAPT MJ makes a good point about outside influences and protecting the image of the Naval Academy. USNA has always been under the microscope, probably more than other Service Academies because of the proximity to Washington. It is important to hold Midshipman to a higher standard, and protect the public image that USNA produces the "best and the brightest." (Of course, I am not saying it is necessarily true, but its important to strive for excellence and present the image). That's why events that would be the norm at an ordinary college are often scandalous at USNA. The issue is even more delicate today in the age of social media and heightened "wokeness" -- I know that things that were acceptable in my day wouldn't fly at USNA now. It probably doesn't come as a surprise that I don't always agree with changes at USNA, but I recognize that times change and the 'Dant has a very difficult task in balancing the traditions that make USNA so special and modern day "sensibilities." (Thanks CAPT MJ, I am adding "sensibilities" to my repertoire of PC speak :) !).
 
For those with 100+ demerits, why would you want to glorify that 'achievement'? I can understand the banning of wearing the sweaters, tradition or not.
@Old Navy BGO is spot on - unless you've been there, it would seem quite odd. There is a degree of rebellion amongst the cadets and mids against the establishment we fought so hard to join. While your HS friends are attending civilian colleges with almost no rules, you are held to a much higher behavioral standard and new laws like UCMJ, and General Officers telling you that you cannot go off campus on a school night or that your sheet must measure 4" at the cuff. The expectations are ridiculously high, and it creates an enormous amount of pressure and frustration for the student. As a result, there is a natural desire to rebel. Those who push the envelope and ride the line are (at times) considered heros amongst their peers for taking action in ways everyone wanted to, but few had the guts to risk. Almost anything you do could be a disenrollable offense - and that in and of itself adds pressure.

Think of the mentality that believes dangerous things are exhilarating. When the risk is managed, you leave with the impression that it was the most fun in the world, but there is a razor thin edge where fun becomes deadly. "It's all fun and games until someone loses their PQ" is/was a common saying at USAFA - and highlights this line of danger/risk in one's actions.

So, in a community where you have rebellious thoughts yourself, and then see a peer act on those thoughts, there is a moment of self reflection that celebrates the courage of your classmate. This is elevated when the classmate gets caught. Then, you wait to see what the punishment will be. Dis-enrollment is the ultimate game ender and it stinks to be that guy/girl, but they knew the risks. Anything short of dis-enrollment is (at times) a badge of honor for riding that fine line between cool and just dumb.

Everyone is universally glad that they were the one who did not get restricted or march tours, but there is a degree of respect for those who got busted and punished.

Yes - it's weird, but so are a lot of things about cadet life where you have the best and the brightest who even in their worst moments are doing things that are not really all that bad and would be dwarfed in scale when compared to the actions of the typical frat or civilian college shenanigans.

A possible civilian example would be when you get a warning for speeding and not a ticket. You were in a rush, flying down the highway - willing to risk it all. Then, the lights come on and in that moment, you know you are busted. You knew the consequences, and this time, you got caught. As you await your fate and ponder what the fine would be, a million thoughts race through your head. Then, when told that you are just getting a warning, the rush of relief and elation flows over you. Then, you seek to share your good fortune with others as you relay the story at home and at work and everyone around you is so excited for you -- thinking in their head "Awesome! he/she got away with it - glad it wasn't me... Hooray!"
 
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The expectations are ridiculously high, and it creates an enormous amount of pressure and frustration for the student. As a result, there is a natural desire to rebel. Those who push the envelope and ride the line are (at times) considered heros amongst their peers for taking action in ways everyone wanted to, but few had the guts to risk.

I've never taken the time to analyze in this degree of detail, but Shiner explains it very well. I would also point out that history is full of examples where the "rebels" went on to extraordinary military careers. In fact, one could make the argument that the the desire to push the boundaries and challenge the administration is a favorable trait. I'm not advocating that you attend USNA with the intent of tearing the place up, but don't look down on those that get a few demerits.
 
As a side note, if this is so frowned upon (I am not a USNA grad) - why then are the stories behind Black N recipients posted on what I believe to be an official USNA site????

www.usna.com is the USNA Alumni Assn, a fully independent, non-DOD-related 501(c)3 non-profit organization.

www.usna.edu is the Naval Academy itself, the DOD entity.

In general, there is close cooperation and alignment of messaging between the two. The Alumni Association stories represent Alumni recollections, actual stories and traditions. Current administrative actions regarding Black N issues are the preserve of USNA leadership.
 
Every year at Halloween we have a good time. There’s some tasty food in King Hall for once and a pretty fun costume experience. It’s also the one time when members of the Black N come out in force and we get to see if we know anyone, the rest of the year it’s supposed to be hush hush. There is a midregs thing that says we can’t wear black sweaters with a Gold N which targets the sweater but this is like the unofficial one night exception going back for many years. It’s literal tradition and this decision by the current command staff is one in a long list that is just morale killing.
Who's morale is being killed? Those that can't stay out of serious trouble or those that never get into serious trouble. I hear the tendency now is to award 99 demerits and deny the offender the Black N.

With people like Fleming calling out the costs vs reward of SAs, having those with Black N's parading around would only seem to stoke his fire.
 
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