Desenrollment Information

[ChristianBale11]

OP is there possibly more of this story we are not privy too? While plagiarism would be considered an honors violation I would not think one would get dismissed over it. I would think you would get a fail on the class and a letter of counseling from your PMS.

No sir. I’m not hiding anything. If I was a screw up cadet, bad gpa, bad pt score, bad CST, bad on everything I’ll understand the decision. But this is my first issue since I joined the ROTC. This plagiarism issue is the only thing I’ve ever done and believe me I didn’t do it willingly knowing that for not citing an internet webpage I’ll get this drastic decision.

 

[ChristianBale11]

OP is there possibly more of this story we are not privy too? While plagiarism would be considered an honors violation I would not think one would get dismissed over it. I would think you would get a fail on the class and a letter of counseling from your PMS.

There may well be more to this that the OP has stated, but, at least for NROTC plagiarism is considered a major offense and the prescribed consequence is disenrollment, unless the PNS believes the mid can be rehabilitated before commissioning. So, it would seem at least that a freshman would have a better chance of not being disenrolled than a senior, since there is more time for development and rehabilitation. I'm sure the cadet/mid's track record, acceptance of responsibility and other factors would play heavily in the decision.

If we have to look at my recor in order to take a decision I’ll be more than happy to do it because I know what I worked for, the sacrifices made to be where I am right now. If I’m the one that can start the appeal I will do it, I really don’t deserve getting kicked out.

 

[ProudDad17]

OP is there possibly more of this story we are not privy too? While plagiarism would be considered an honors violation I would not think one would get dismissed over it. I would think you would get a fail on the class and a letter of counseling from your PMS.

There may well be more to this that the OP has stated, but, at least for NROTC plagiarism is considered a major offense and the prescribed consequence is disenrollment, unless the PNS believes the mid can be rehabilitated before commissioning. So, it would seem at least that a freshman would have a better chance of not being disenrolled than a senior, since there is more time for development and rehabilitation. I'm sure the cadet/mid's track record, acceptance of responsibility and other factors would play heavily in the decision.

If we have to look at my recor in order to take a decision I’ll be more than happy to do it because I know what I worked for, the sacrifices made to be where I am right now. If I’m the one that can start the appeal I will do it, I really don’t deserve getting kicked out.

OP, no one here is the person you have to convince of your innocence or whether you deserve to remain in the program. I was only explaining what I know of the regulations, from an NROTC side of things to @sheriff3. You have been given some good guidance on steps to get you started. Rather than spending your day on here defending yourself, you would be better served searching for an attorney (most will give an initial consultation without charge) and/or looking up the Army regulations that pertain to your situation. My earlier post even had the applicable section referenced.

 

[Humey]

Just curious, but how did someone figure out that you took two sentences from some misc blog on the internet?

Most colleges use anti-plagiarism software that scans the internet and compares a PDF or WORD document to other works in cyberland. If a hit matches and the excerpt has not been attributed to the original source, it is considered plagiarism.

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatcal error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

 

[AROTC-dad]

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatcal error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

I don't disagree. It is not unlike getting a speeding ticket for 71 mph in a 70 mph zone. It is technically breaking the law, but who the heck really would throw the book at you for that?

 

[ProudDad17]

Just curious, but how did someone figure out that you took two sentences from some misc blog on the internet?

Most colleges use anti-plagiarism software that scans the internet and compares a PDF or WORD document to other works in cyberland. If a hit matches and the excerpt has not been attributed to the original source, it is considered plagiarism.

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatical error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

I guess that is the crux of this whole issue. Was it plagiarism or just an oversight/inadvertent failure to cite a source? Apparently someone at the university level felt it was plagiarism and reported it as a violation. As I understand it, most universities have some sort of honor council that hears these matters and makes a determination of whether it was a violation. I would think the ROTC unit would investigate the matter as well and make their determination whether the act was an honor violation. If the unit determines the cadet committed an honor violation, disciplinary action would follow. Apparently, in this case, the recommended disciplinary action is disenrollment. That is why it is important for teh OP to take action to protect himself and ensure that his due process is honored.

 

[Humey]

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatcal error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

I don't disagree. It is not unlike getting a speeding ticket for 71 mph in a 70 mph zone. It is technically breaking the law, but who the heck really would throw the book at you for that?

Sure, it is up to the discretion of cop and for this student, his teacher. However that is why many crimes have different levels like self defense to 1st degree murder. I would think the teacher could have punished him without calling it plagarism as its implacations can really hurt a student.

 

[ProudDad17]

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatcal error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

I don't disagree. It is not unlike getting a speeding ticket for 71 mph in a 70 mph zone. It is technically breaking the law, but who the heck really would throw the book at you for that?

Sure, it is up to the discretion of cop and for this student, his teacher. However that is why many crimes have different levels like self defense to 1st degree murder. I would think the teacher could have punished him without calling it plagarism as its implacations can really hurt a student.

Wouldn't some of this depend on the two sentences, what they are and how they are presented? Were they presented as his own ideas or general discussion of an issue? Let's pretend for a moment that Thomas Jefferson had a blog back in 1776 and he wrote in his blog the following two sentences:
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now if someone came along behind him and used these two sentences in their own paper, passing it off as their own original thoughts, would that be plagiarism? Not saying that's at all what happened here. All we know is what the OP presented from his own perspective.

 

[Humey]

I get that, just seems a little extreme. My son writes about 10 papers (some short and some long) a year for school and while he cites his info there have been times the professor marks him down for not putting enough citations in the paper. It is a technical error, no difference that a grammatcal error in my opinion. I get if if the paper is for a masters or phd program or something for publication, but 2 sentences out of a whole essay seems rather extreme.

I don't disagree. It is not unlike getting a speeding ticket for 71 mph in a 70 mph zone. It is technically breaking the law, but who the heck really would throw the book at you for that?

Sure, it is up to the discretion of cop and for this student, his teacher. However that is why many crimes have different levels like self defense to 1st degree murder. I would think the teacher could have punished him without calling it plagarism as its implacations can really hurt a student.

Wouldn't some of this depend on the two sentences, what they are and how they are presented? Were they presented as his own ideas or general discussion of an issue? Let's pretend for a moment that Thomas Jefferson had a blog back in 1776 and he wrote in his blog the following two sentences:
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now if someone came along behind him and used these two sentences in their own paper, passing it off as their own original thoughts, would that be plagiarism? Not saying that's at all what happened here. All we know is what the OP presented from his own perspective.

your are right. It it all depends what the two those sentences were and how important they were to the essay. It would also depend on the size of the essay. There has to be a difference between if it is a 15 page report and everything got cited but those two sentences or 250 words essay that includes those two sentences. It is hard to say without knowing exactly what happened. Without knowing all of the facts and assuming what the student said was true, I personally think accusing someone of plagarism is extreme if everything is citied except for two sentences. And honestly if there two sentences are so common knowledge like "the earth is round" I am not sure you even have to cite it. Again I dont know the circumstances, but common sense tells me someone went overboard especially when there is real plagarism and bought essays are all over colleges

 

[Tbpxece]

Officers are held to higher standards. It doesn't surprise me that any integrity violation would be grounds for disenrollment, especially during officer training.

That certainly is the case in OTS/OCS. One whiff of an integrity violation and you are gone with little chance of recourse.

Just because ROTC is stretched out over 4 years rather than several months does not mean the standard should be any lower.

OP, certainly appeal the decision (always appeal every decision), but it doesn't sound like you think it was a big deal. That's the issue-- dishonesty (no matter how benign) is always a big deal, especially for an officer candidate. Come to terms with that.

 

[sheriff3]

OP, for what it is worth I am on your side. If as presented the punishment does not fit the offense. Last year DS was cadre at Ft. Knox after graduation and commissioning. DS tells of a story of a Captain arrested AT THE GATE for DUI. Capt. gets a local GOMAR and is allowed to stay on as a cadre member for the rest of the course... Crazy! Follow the advice you have received here and best of luck to you.

 

[AROTC-dad]

Agree with the Sheriff, especially if the issue was unintentional and perhaps inadvertent. Big difference as opposed to taking credit for another person's work on purpose.

 

[Herman_Snerd]

I don’t know all the details and I don’t know if this is recoverable, but I hope it is, and I wish you luck young man. The fact that you are this far along in your service training and were selected to participate already says a lot about your strengths and potential. The fact that you are reflecting on this and seeking advice also speaks well for you.

Sincerely hope this helps. Time is of the essence to get organized, have key discussions, get counsel.

Folks, all feedback welcome including PM feedback, but let’s keep our focus for the moment on trying to help this young person, please- he has a lot riding on the next steps here.

Very respectfully,
Hermie, Sr.

 

[Tbpxece]

OP, for what it is worth I am on your side. If as presented the punishment does not fit the offense. Last year DS was cadre at Ft. Knox after graduation and commissioning. DS tells of a story of a Captain arrested AT THE GATE for DUI. Capt. gets a local GOMAR and is allowed to stay on as a cadre member for the rest of the course... Crazy! Follow the advice you have received here and best of luck to you.

Maybe it's different in the Army, but I doubt it. GOMOR's might seem like a slap on the wrist, but they are no joke. That captain is probably stuck at O-3 for a long time, and may completely miss the chance to ever make O-4, which likely means no retirement if he/she wasn't prior service.

To go back on topic-->

The advice in my previous post is coming from a desire to help, and I apologize if it did not come across that way.

Understand that military officers have little margin for error when it comes to integrity violations. OP needs to understand and recognize that. It doesn't matter how insignificant that violation was-- if you were caught and reprimanded, you HAVE to show remorse or have some serious connections to avoid serious punishment.

Understand the gravity of the situation, appreciate the gravity of the situation, show remorse, and then start your appeal from that position. Immediately protesting the "fairness" of the punishment is the wrong approach. Failing to get military legal advice and/or representation in this is also a big mistake. You made a mistake, got caught, and then got a pretty severe punishment. Focus your efforts on mitigating the punishment-- not on protesting the rule or quibbling over your intent when you plagiarized (intentionally, or unintentionally).

TL;DR--> Integrity violations are super serious, especially for military officers. You shouldn't be shocked they are throwing the book at you. It happens in the "real" military all the time-- there are hundreds of commanders who have been fired for integrity violations (both major and minor) by themselves or by those under them. Heck, look at Generals Petraeus and McChrystal. OP's comments so far don't communicate to me that they understand that, which means any appeal will be tough. This isn't the same as failing a class, failing a fitness test, or being a mediocre cadet.

 

[Pima]

I am throwing a different twist. The military has a specific number from a manpower need aspect. If they are over it now, than they are going to look on how to cut the incoming O1s.

My DS was in AFROTC as an AS100 (freshmen) That spring HQ ADAF came and said buh by. He owed nothing, but they were over manned in the non-rated world. 2 months prior to commissioning. In my eyes the same thing happened to Gojira's DS (NROTC). They need to make their budget.

Yes, that is harsh, but it is the reality. They expect X amt to commission for that FY group. The CoC's may have been told via memo's that they will be cutting.

I am not here to doubt the OP's story, but I do find it strange/unique. In AFROTC, at least for my DH (decades ago) and DS the only way the CoC would find out about this academic issue is IF it was reported to their academic school counselor. The counselor would in turn report it to ROTC since they are contracted. The CoC would then be required to report it. In essence, the ball started rolling wayyyyyyyyyyyy before ROTC got involved. Now maybe the OP didn't know that ROTC would have been informed, but I am just having a problem with 2+2 =4 here.
~ The school tattled to ROTC, but did not suspend, place them on academic probation or fail him for this indiscretion? At least that is how I reading it.
~~ 2+2 here doesn't equal 4. Unless, you are saying it was for ROTC classes.

No offense, but HOPEFULLY you will commission in the next 6 months as an officer. I do not know your MOS, nor do I need to know. I thank you for your desire to serve this great nation.

That being said, I am not sure I would contact a military attorney.
~ Military attorney's are not cheap. I would be pro that route if they are slamming you with a bill. @6 yrs ago a poster named Gojira had to hire an attorney. 6 weeks prior to commissioning in the Navy he was cut. 6 lbs overweight. They handed him a bill for 143K (NROTC scholarship) that had to be repaid in 4 yrs. The attorney took it all the way to the SecNav. He never got commissioned. The attorney worked it out that he could repay it over 10 yrs.
~~ My point is his was weight of 6 lbs., and still lost. Your issue is academic

I do wish you the best, truly I do.

 

[Humey]

I am being serious, but you know how in James Bond movies and movies like that, when the head bad guy's men fail at something, they ususally get killed by the head bad guy? I sometimes feel like the same thing happens in these types of occurances. Of course no one gets killed, but I get the impression is that one mistake and you are out. The good guys in the movies fail many times also, but they get another try to make it good, because for most of us learn from our mistakes. If anything mistakes are what gives us our best lessons. There is a saying about really sucessful tech giants like Bill Gates and such,
" you only have to be right once"

AGain, i dont know what happened and I dont even blame Rotc for punishing the student. They took the info they received from the school. Maybe it was plagarims or maybe it was being careless or sloppy. I just dont like this idea of one mistake and you are out. I am not a fan of zero tolerance. It is a crazy idea and there should always be some thought behind the punishment.

 

[QA1517]

I'm not trying to be judge or jury here but the cadet oath states "I will not steal, cheat, or lie or tolerate those that do"

If you google how to footnote something that does not have an author you get the following:

When a work has no identified author, cite in text the first few words of the article title using double quotation marks, “headline-style" capitalization, and the year.

Again, not saying the OP deserves the punishment, but his mistake was avoidable by doing a 10 second research.

I sincerely hope things work out in his favor.

 

[Pima]

ChristianBale11 aka Batman, you need to decide one thing, and one thing alone.
Fight or flight.

Only your unit can give you true guidance on what the next step will be. Either you accept Disenrollment (fly away) or you fight it (Command, HQ, etc).

The reality is this is the real world. The DoD is no different than any Fortune 500 company. They have a budget for employees (personnel) and know how many they need to hire as jr mgmt. That is what an O1 is.
~ The true difference is the Fortune 500 doesn't have an employee pipeline like the DoD, and specifically the Army or any of the military branches. The Army knows how many will commission in May by this point. The SMCs also know how many that will go AD. You than have ROTC. OTS too. All of this comes into the equation. Man power says 1500 O1s AD for FY 19. WP commissions 800. That means between ROTC and OTS they have 700.
~~ Adding onto the manpower, you have not stated your MOS. YOU DO NOT NEED TO impo. Just stating, let's say your MOS is Public Affairs and your major was govt/politics (My DS AFROTC, now ADAF pilot was that major). No offense, but that is not the same as Cyber and a computer major when it comes to needs of any branch. Again, this is about a budget and the needs to complete their mission. I can stick a computer major that wanted Cyber into PA, hard to stick the govt/pol major into the cyber position.
~~ May I ask, since you are in AROTC, are you going AD or are you going Guard/Reserve? Asking bc AFROTC and NROTC require AD, going Guard/Reserve requires lots of jumping through hoops and it is rare.

I really hope for the best for you.

 

[IrishBrewer]

I'm not trying to be judge or jury here but the cadet oath states "I will not steal, cheat, or lie or tolerate those that do"

If you google how to footnote something that does not have an author you get the following:

When a work has no identified author, cite in text the first few words of the article title using double quotation marks, “headline-style" capitalization, and the year.

Again, not saying the OP deserves the punishment, but his mistake was avoidable by doing a 10 second research.

I sincerely hope things work out in his favor.

I had the same thought. Even if he didn't do it before the infraction occurred, he could have done so after the fact and found out that there is a way to do it right and own up to the mistake but instead, he still seems to be saying that he wasn't at fault. First step should have been to find out what he should have done so he can speak intelligently and with true remorse in defending himself against dis-enrollment. I'm guessing that attitude after the fact plays a big part both with his cadre and the school disciplinary committee. This should be the first step before resorting to lawyering-up.

 

[unkown1961]

Being disenrolled for a 2 unsourced sentences? I teach at a university and I don't know anyone who would even flunk you for that small amount or report you to the university's database. They'd ding your grade of course. That being said, I don't know why you didn't attribute the sentences to the blog and its link - just because you couldn't find the author, you didn't think to source the blog's title? This deserves a grade decrease but not a disenrollment.
Also, how did your detachment find out?
But, to a broader discussion, to be disenrolled for 2 sentences is rather draconian. Let the punishment fit the level of crime: do some extra push-ups or something, but to disenroll! I'm against zero tolerance or knee-jerk type extreme penalties. For one, it's inconsistent with what we see in active duty - people can certainly name top officers who have not been kicked out for fraternization, DUI, etc. But second, the military stands to lose good people. College kids can make a mistake and they may be losing a solid leader. Further, these type of punishments loses sight of empathy and context that can be a lesson to the offender (oh, and the people doing the punishing probably have done something similar at some point in their life). Should a 20 year old be kicked out for having one beer? Should a young LT have a poor eval for being late because his wife became suddenly ill as he was leaving the house?
For the record, I've had a 100% plagiarized paper who received and F and was reported to our school's database, I've had papers with enough plagiarizing that they had their grade knocked down, and I've had papers with 1 to 2 unattributed sentences where they lost a few points based on an overall fantastic paper.