I am prior service. Ended my term, decided to go to college, and pursue officership through AFROTC. During my second year leading up to field training everything was good to go; GPA, PFT, AFOQT, and Commander's ranking were all in check. Two weeks before the selection board I was dis-enrolled for a Integrity violation. The Integrity violation had nothing to do with drugs, violating the law etc. This was my first offense in AFROTC, and I believe being dis-enrolled for it was a bit harsh. What's done is done, and I am a strong believer in owning up to your mistakes (just as long as you learn from them). I did just that, owned up to my mistake, and pleaded my case in front of the commander explaining why I deserve to stay.I even took the time the night before to write a two page memo of everything I would like to say. One of my cadre also went to bat for me. In the end his mind was already made up, and he wasn't having it. I have seen several cadets get in far worse trouble, and been allowed to stay. I'm not sure if the guy had it out for me or what. I am normally a laid back person, and I'm not always gunning to be number one. I have helped many cadets throughout the detachment in regards to grades, pt, marching, etc. I was a mentor to quite a few, and several looked up to me. The main reason I decided to pursue officership was to challenge my career, and ultimately better myself not only as a leader, but a person as well. This is a dream of mine, and I would like nothing more then to fulfill it. Furthermore, on to my question. I was NOT a contracted cadet. My question is; if I was dis-enrolled as a non contract cadet, and transferred to a different university, would I be able to join their detachment? Any help or guidance in the correct direction is greatly appreciated.
Dis-enrolled...Chances of getting back in?
- Thread starter Google
- Start date
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you will not likely be matriculated into any AF commissioning program. You'll be asked specifically if you have ever been disenrolled from any previous commissioning source. You could lie, but it will re-surface, and that would be very bad for you...Quick story, when I was in OTS about 11 years ago, a fella was removed from training for having been disenrolled from ROTC and then lied on his admission form to get into OTS. They found out during his SSBI (security background check). It didn't work out so well for him (i.e not only was he was removed, he can now never get a clearance).
BL: you can try, but if you do, make sure you fully disclose everything. Don't try and hide it.
You could try USN/USA or USMC and see what they say.
BL: you can try, but if you do, make sure you fully disclose everything. Don't try and hide it.
You could try USN/USA or USMC and see what they say.
I did some digging on several forums. Supposedly a disenrollment is waiverable at the detachment level, by their respected commander. Meaning I could try my luck at a different detachment, explain my situation, and hope for the best. Possibly have a few character references on hand, wouldn't hurt. On a side note, I have talked to a few cadre members, and they said your records are only kept at the detachment for a year after you leave. Once the year is up they are destroyed. Now, whether or not the disenrollment is kept in some type of permanent system beyond the detachment is questionable. I was not a contracted cadet, so I have no disenrollment code. I know a lot more paper work goes into the system with contracted cadets. So I'm curious if the individual in your class was contracted or not. Either way, I would still explain what happened to a different detachment just to cover my rear.
Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
My assumption would be no.
The fact is mudhen is correct you will have to answer that question if you have ever been in ROTC and the reason why you left.
Google may be correct that is waiverable, but let's be honest these are O6s running the dets., and they are going to check into why you were dis-enrolled by talking to their peers.
Also, if you were the CoC, would you take in a new cadet that would be a C200 which you don't know anything about, except the integrity violation when you know come Jan they will be up for SFT again? You know that if not selected for SFT you are most likely going to be dis-enrolled again. There is no 100% selection rate for SFT.
As a CoC what does this say to the unit from a leadership perspective when you give a 2nd chance to someone who has an integrity violation, which could be perceived as an honor code violation. Yes, it says they believe in 2nd chances, but it also says that the line drawn in the sand regarding standards actually moves and is not fixed. It is not really how you want to train the future leaders as a leader.
This is not only about you, but the AF's manpower needs. At this point they are meeting their numbers. They don't need to do more than give 1 chance.
If you look at how tight the numbers are right now, if you go to the rated board and don't like what you get, you can't say no and go to the non-rated board. It is all or nothing. If they are willing to do this after 3 1/2 yrs with a cadet that had no problems it just illustrates how tight the numbers are.
If that also doesn't illustrate it enough, the AFA has for 3 yrs been reducing appointments by hundreds per year, yet they have not increased the amount of scholarships.
One last thing for you to realize, assume everything works out and you get into another det. The problem is this is going to mess you up for graduation. You will be delayed another yr. if you go to SFT. How is this going to impact your academic path?
The fact is mudhen is correct you will have to answer that question if you have ever been in ROTC and the reason why you left.
Google may be correct that is waiverable, but let's be honest these are O6s running the dets., and they are going to check into why you were dis-enrolled by talking to their peers.
Also, if you were the CoC, would you take in a new cadet that would be a C200 which you don't know anything about, except the integrity violation when you know come Jan they will be up for SFT again? You know that if not selected for SFT you are most likely going to be dis-enrolled again. There is no 100% selection rate for SFT.
As a CoC what does this say to the unit from a leadership perspective when you give a 2nd chance to someone who has an integrity violation, which could be perceived as an honor code violation. Yes, it says they believe in 2nd chances, but it also says that the line drawn in the sand regarding standards actually moves and is not fixed. It is not really how you want to train the future leaders as a leader.
This is not only about you, but the AF's manpower needs. At this point they are meeting their numbers. They don't need to do more than give 1 chance.
If you look at how tight the numbers are right now, if you go to the rated board and don't like what you get, you can't say no and go to the non-rated board. It is all or nothing. If they are willing to do this after 3 1/2 yrs with a cadet that had no problems it just illustrates how tight the numbers are.
If that also doesn't illustrate it enough, the AFA has for 3 yrs been reducing appointments by hundreds per year, yet they have not increased the amount of scholarships.
One last thing for you to realize, assume everything works out and you get into another det. The problem is this is going to mess you up for graduation. You will be delayed another yr. if you go to SFT. How is this going to impact your academic path?
Google - admittedly I come from AROTC, but how can you be disenrolled if you aren't contracted yet? And what does disenrolling a non-contracted cadet consist of? Were you kicked out of class, or just told that you weren't eligible to appear before the SFT selection board?
On the Army side of the house, the worse that can happen as a non-contracted sophomore is that you wouldn't be offered a contract your msIII year. It's not equivalent to being disenrolled, and you would still be eligible for other/future commissioning sources.
On the Army side of the house, the worse that can happen as a non-contracted sophomore is that you wouldn't be offered a contract your msIII year. It's not equivalent to being disenrolled, and you would still be eligible for other/future commissioning sources.
Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
Jcc,
I think for the OP, his problem is he was selected for SFT. That means there probably is a permanent record of him at AFROTCHQ.
I am not sure if he would even be eligible for SFT again even if he could get a waiver.
He may have been disenrolled as a non-contracted cadet because of SFT selection. You only contract after SFT completion, however, since he was selected and did not attend, it places him in a different realm.
I think for the OP, his problem is he was selected for SFT. That means there probably is a permanent record of him at AFROTCHQ.
I am not sure if he would even be eligible for SFT again even if he could get a waiver.
He may have been disenrolled as a non-contracted cadet because of SFT selection. You only contract after SFT completion, however, since he was selected and did not attend, it places him in a different realm.
G, Pima is right you are done in the AF, Navy and Coast Guard. Possibly try Army or Marines but I don't think they will have a need for you because they may be filling their numbers too.
Its not the end of your career. Many opportunities for you in private sector. Use your enlisted experience (and your integrity mishap) to be a spring board for your college courses, internship, and career. Enjoy your college life and internship window! Two of my cousins one graduated 2 years ago the other 4 years ago, they are working at great companies. Nothing to do with the military but really doing well.
Its not the end of your career. Many opportunities for you in private sector. Use your enlisted experience (and your integrity mishap) to be a spring board for your college courses, internship, and career. Enjoy your college life and internship window! Two of my cousins one graduated 2 years ago the other 4 years ago, they are working at great companies. Nothing to do with the military but really doing well.
Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
My bad, I read too fast. In that case the question becomes did the commander submit and than pull his paperwork back.
Even so it still comes back to the realistic path in the future. Not trying to be debbie downer, just saying that I can't see how a new commander who has only had 1 semester with the cadet, knowing there is some background issues of being asked not to re-enroll in AFROTC, will give a strong rec. for SFT over the cadet that has been in their det for 3 semesters and kept their nose clean the entire time.
The commander's rec accounts currently for 50% of the WCS for selection.
I assume the OP knows which school he would transfer to by this time, if so he should contact that det. and ask if they will support him for a waiver.
If I read it correctly, this occurred over a yr because he stated he has already completed the dis-enrollment, and it was 2 weeks prior to the board. Right now is when the board should be meeting for this SFT.
If that is so, and he is still in college, he would be a jr., theoretically a sr next yr. when he transferred He would have to do 3 more yrs., 1 yr for SFT selection, 2 yrs as a POC. Now if I have done my math, assume he left the AF enlisted at 22/23. 2 yrs in already he is 25, 26 a yr later. He will be 29 around commissioning. That is putting him real close to the wall. Rated would be out of the question most likely. I believe they must start rated school no later than 29 1/2, most AFROTC grads do not start school for almost a yr.
I think he may feel that it was a bit harsh compared to what other peers were handed out, but also remember you are not a 19/20 yr. old, you were what 23/24?. You also served 4 yrs in ADAF. The expectation level for you is going to be higher due to your age and experience. With age should come wisdom.
Something the CoC of an incoming unit would also place into their consideration when thinking about offering a waiver if it is allowable. He has age going against him in both scenarios. Age when it occurred because he should have none better, age going against him if my math is right for entering as a newly minted officer.
Remember AFROTC cadets can have a report date for 6-9 months after commissioning. You are not considered AD until you report. I don't know if that age limit is commissioning or AD date.
Even so it still comes back to the realistic path in the future. Not trying to be debbie downer, just saying that I can't see how a new commander who has only had 1 semester with the cadet, knowing there is some background issues of being asked not to re-enroll in AFROTC, will give a strong rec. for SFT over the cadet that has been in their det for 3 semesters and kept their nose clean the entire time.
The commander's rec accounts currently for 50% of the WCS for selection.
I assume the OP knows which school he would transfer to by this time, if so he should contact that det. and ask if they will support him for a waiver.
If I read it correctly, this occurred over a yr because he stated he has already completed the dis-enrollment, and it was 2 weeks prior to the board. Right now is when the board should be meeting for this SFT.
If that is so, and he is still in college, he would be a jr., theoretically a sr next yr. when he transferred He would have to do 3 more yrs., 1 yr for SFT selection, 2 yrs as a POC. Now if I have done my math, assume he left the AF enlisted at 22/23. 2 yrs in already he is 25, 26 a yr later. He will be 29 around commissioning. That is putting him real close to the wall. Rated would be out of the question most likely. I believe they must start rated school no later than 29 1/2, most AFROTC grads do not start school for almost a yr.
I think he may feel that it was a bit harsh compared to what other peers were handed out, but also remember you are not a 19/20 yr. old, you were what 23/24?. You also served 4 yrs in ADAF. The expectation level for you is going to be higher due to your age and experience. With age should come wisdom.
Something the CoC of an incoming unit would also place into their consideration when thinking about offering a waiver if it is allowable. He has age going against him in both scenarios. Age when it occurred because he should have none better, age going against him if my math is right for entering as a newly minted officer.
Remember AFROTC cadets can have a report date for 6-9 months after commissioning. You are not considered AD until you report. I don't know if that age limit is commissioning or AD date.
Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
jbsail,
I doubt the Marines because they are currently starting RIF/SERB for AD officers. You don't go to that extreme unless you need to cut personnel numbers.
I doubt the Army because they have been cutting AROTC scholarships and appointments to USMA.
Yrs ago, back in 10 many AFROTC cadets not selected for SFT jumped ship and went to AROTC. However, if I recall correctly last yr., AROTC was closing that door because they were meeting their numbers too.
In the end it is nothing personal for them, it is business. They have a budget and personnel numbers to meet, and if they are meeting them, there is no need to make exceptions.
I don't mean to be harsh, but really the only option I think you have at this time is to contact the det you want to attend and ask for an interview. Be honest with every detail. Let the chips fall where they may because at least you know you tried and won't have that WHAT IF question in your mind.
I doubt the Marines because they are currently starting RIF/SERB for AD officers. You don't go to that extreme unless you need to cut personnel numbers.
I doubt the Army because they have been cutting AROTC scholarships and appointments to USMA.
Yrs ago, back in 10 many AFROTC cadets not selected for SFT jumped ship and went to AROTC. However, if I recall correctly last yr., AROTC was closing that door because they were meeting their numbers too.
In the end it is nothing personal for them, it is business. They have a budget and personnel numbers to meet, and if they are meeting them, there is no need to make exceptions.
I don't mean to be harsh, but really the only option I think you have at this time is to contact the det you want to attend and ask for an interview. Be honest with every detail. Let the chips fall where they may because at least you know you tried and won't have that WHAT IF question in your mind.
Last edited:
To clear up some confusion, my paper work was never sent up for field training selection. I contacted one of my cadre, and below is what he told me.
You will not have a dis-enrollment code. This is only reserved for
contracted cadets who are disenrolled from the program. Non-contract
cadets, no matter what reason they leave the detachment for, are all
classified as a Det-Drop. No reason is stated in the system and no
code is applied.
You will not have a dis-enrollment code. This is only reserved for
contracted cadets who are disenrolled from the program. Non-contract
cadets, no matter what reason they leave the detachment for, are all
classified as a Det-Drop. No reason is stated in the system and no
code is applied.
As I suspected. You may not have a problem entering another commissioning source, unless the nature of the integrity violation is such that it will need to be explained. There are no (or at least very few) waivers being given out these days.
There is the matter of timing if you wish to restrict yourself to Air Force. You won't be a sophomore forever, after all.
There is the matter of timing if you wish to restrict yourself to Air Force. You won't be a sophomore forever, after all.
Greed, without knowiing what the code violation was there is really no way anyone can advise. You may be able to look toward the Army depending on the violation. You would need to disclose that you were in the AFROTC and left and why.
If you go back and read my previous post I was a non-contracted. As quoted below directly from a cadre I spoke to "No reason is stated in the system and no code is applied." I guess the best advice I can take is to get in contact with a different detachment, be honest, and hope for the best. I could always apply for OTS if all else fails.
Military is small, code or no code, folks can easily call your old det and ask.
Pima
10-Year Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2007
- Messages
- 13,900
Google, you might really want to talk to a recruiter about OTS because even if you get back in you still have SFT selection hanging over your head. I am not sure if you don't get selected you can apply for OTS, I believe at that time it is an official dis-enrollment where there would be a code. Not sure, but I would assume that this would be the case since SFT is a requirement for commissioning.
At this point you are already putting off your degree for at least 2 more yrs., and your age is becoming your enemy. If you stay the course, go OTS, you would be able to go in 14 (assuming you are still in college currently).
Our friend's DS did not do AFROTC in college, he applied for SFT as a rising sr and was awarded a CSO slot this summer. You could actually apply this summer for OTS and delay until next spring when you graduate.
I just don't see why if this is an option the benefit of staying in the AFROTC program for yourself. Your life would remain up in the air for 3 more yrs from today, instead of 8 more months awaiting the July OTS board results.
At this point you are already putting off your degree for at least 2 more yrs., and your age is becoming your enemy. If you stay the course, go OTS, you would be able to go in 14 (assuming you are still in college currently).
Our friend's DS did not do AFROTC in college, he applied for SFT as a rising sr and was awarded a CSO slot this summer. You could actually apply this summer for OTS and delay until next spring when you graduate.
I just don't see why if this is an option the benefit of staying in the AFROTC program for yourself. Your life would remain up in the air for 3 more yrs from today, instead of 8 more months awaiting the July OTS board results.
I can tell you that as far as the Army is concerned it doesn't matter if you were contracted or not. One of the screening questions on the paperwork you fill out specifically asks if you've ever been disenrolled from any commissioning source for any reason. You could be dishonest, but that isn't a very good way to get started and on the off chance someone does their homework on you you're going to get burned.
If you're dead set on becoming an officer in the military then I would suggest you press pause on college after this semester so you don't achieve too advanced a standing and have to change your major to participate. Shop around to see what your options are and if you find an ROO who is willing to play ball then you can transfer to that school and start again. Unless you received some sort of civil conviction and require a waiver to contract the PMS at whatever school you talk to probably gives the nod on whether or not you can come on board.
If you're dead set on becoming an officer in the military then I would suggest you press pause on college after this semester so you don't achieve too advanced a standing and have to change your major to participate. Shop around to see what your options are and if you find an ROO who is willing to play ball then you can transfer to that school and start again. Unless you received some sort of civil conviction and require a waiver to contract the PMS at whatever school you talk to probably gives the nod on whether or not you can come on board.
They always do their homework when a cadet is considered for Advance Course (3rd and 4th years of ROTC). The security check would reveal the prior ROTC enrollment. If it fails there, the Secret Clearance needed for Commissioning (the one where old friends, teachers, etc. are interviewed) would pick it up.
I agree with everyone who says Google's integrity violation may be a stumbling block when trying to reach advanced standing in another commissioning source. My question is still this, though - how can you "disenroll" a non-contracted cadet? Was he actually kicked out of the AFROTC class prior to the semester end, or just advised that he wouldn't be going before the selection board?
It seems to me his situation is the equivalent of an MSII being advised that he won't receive a contract his junior year. End of story. There is nothing to prevent that former non-contracted cadet from seeking a commission from an alternative source. He hasn't been "dis-enrolled" because he was never legally contracted to begin with. Not continuing in the program, for whatever reason, is not the same thing as being disenrolled. This may be a semantic difference, but I believe the wording is actually important here.
Jcleppe addressed this very question on the GoArmy forum a couple days ago. I'm not saying I think someone guilty of an egregious integrity violation ought to receive a commission, but I believe it's not as black and white as some folks on this thread are implying.
Google, if you're dead set on rejoining ROTC then you need to have some honest conversations with the people who can actually help you achieve your goal. This may or may not be the end of the road. Good luck to you.
It seems to me his situation is the equivalent of an MSII being advised that he won't receive a contract his junior year. End of story. There is nothing to prevent that former non-contracted cadet from seeking a commission from an alternative source. He hasn't been "dis-enrolled" because he was never legally contracted to begin with. Not continuing in the program, for whatever reason, is not the same thing as being disenrolled. This may be a semantic difference, but I believe the wording is actually important here.
Jcleppe addressed this very question on the GoArmy forum a couple days ago. I'm not saying I think someone guilty of an egregious integrity violation ought to receive a commission, but I believe it's not as black and white as some folks on this thread are implying.
Google, if you're dead set on rejoining ROTC then you need to have some honest conversations with the people who can actually help you achieve your goal. This may or may not be the end of the road. Good luck to you.