Disappointing Army AFPT Scores
- Thread starter Jcleppe
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It is understandable that many new scholarship and no will begin their first APFT not realizing just how hard the PU are when done to regulation. All of a sudden they find that the 50 or 60 PU they did for the PFT in front of their PE Teacher equates to about 30 or 40 when done correctly. The cadres sees this all the time and work with these cadets to get them on the right track,
The SU are a little more cut and dry, Keep your hands clasped, go all the way up, go all the way down, not much left to error. A cadet should be able to at least meet the Min.
The run is a different story, no form or regulation requirement here, just cross the finish line. most scholarship cadets will know their acceptance status by April, this gives plenty of time to get the road work in needed to pass the run section of the test. Actually, if you are competing for a scholarship you should start your workouts when you apply so your prepared should you receive the scholarship. I guess what I'm saying is that should be no excuse not to at least pass the run with Min. times the first time.
While it may not be that unusual for some not to pass the first time, the redness in their Col. face when he read out the scores is a telling sign.
It is true that you get at least the first grading period to pass the test but remember, you receive no stipend, book money or tuition payment until you pass. The stipend is not paid retroactive when you finally pass, it starts from the day you pass. If you should fail to pass the test and are released from the scholarship the tuition to date will be on you.
The look on the other 2 scholarship cadets face while the others were contracted was not something you want to have.
The SU are a little more cut and dry, Keep your hands clasped, go all the way up, go all the way down, not much left to error. A cadet should be able to at least meet the Min.
The run is a different story, no form or regulation requirement here, just cross the finish line. most scholarship cadets will know their acceptance status by April, this gives plenty of time to get the road work in needed to pass the run section of the test. Actually, if you are competing for a scholarship you should start your workouts when you apply so your prepared should you receive the scholarship. I guess what I'm saying is that should be no excuse not to at least pass the run with Min. times the first time.
While it may not be that unusual for some not to pass the first time, the redness in their Col. face when he read out the scores is a telling sign.
It is true that you get at least the first grading period to pass the test but remember, you receive no stipend, book money or tuition payment until you pass. The stipend is not paid retroactive when you finally pass, it starts from the day you pass. If you should fail to pass the test and are released from the scholarship the tuition to date will be on you.
The look on the other 2 scholarship cadets face while the others were contracted was not something you want to have.
Patentesq, Well you were quite a bit more subtle than I was...
Also - after I played summer drill instructor for DS, he was amazed how well he did on the PT test run... I still don't think he has figured out that the '2 mile' course he was doing was actually about 2.20 miles
(he ran a 13:27 on test)
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Pima
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Jcleppe said:
I have also heard this too from various people across the nation (some friends in NC, some in OH, some in PA). Basically, it comes down to man power needs for the graduating class yr.
Nobody here is sitting in the meetings for Army Personnel when it comes to their strategic manpower needs. They do this 5 yrs in advance. Yes, right now, the Army is determining what their manpower needs will be for FY 16/17.
They are looking at the fact that Obama has promised no boots on the ground in Libya, out of Iraq and a drawdown from Afghanistan. That means a lot of these AD members will come home to their installation, and now there will be no "duty" jobs for all of them. Add in the economy, and more and more are staying because a paycheck is a paycheck. Yet, at the same time they know that at least 10% of the DOD budget is to be cut.
Where do they cut? Cut AD and they will need to do a RIF or a SERB. That is a lot of money to pay out.
That leaves you with the pipeline coming in. Reducing scholarships given and tightening the waiver process saves money.
People who have ever lived the military life as a career will tell you 2 things.
1. Timing
~~~ You can be the best and the brightest, but because you entered when you did you got boffed due to timing. Had you entered a yr earlier or later things may have played out differently.
2. It's not what you know, but who you know.
~~~This is more the AD ladder, but also can be said for ROTC. There will be CoC's that will fight for a cadet just because they believe in him, and because that CoC has his own "path/respect/connections/whatever" they maybe able to get that waiver, whereas, another cadet with the same stats is not going to get one.
~ The military as much as people don't want to believe it is like any other Fortune 500 company out there, except their business is defending the country. I dare anyone to tell me that By Name Request doesn't exist in any branch.
Nobody flame me about the last points, I am not saying someone was inferior and got it. I am saying it was timing. I am not saying you only get a job or are safe because you know someone, I am saying that for many it is a fact of life.
Pima
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gojack said:
We were that way with our DS, probably even worse. I would wake him at 6 during the summer, and tell him to go run. This was after he went to bed at 1 a.m. When he got accustomed to me waking him, I told him to run with dog (2 yr old Boxer) that pulled him all the way! A trick Bullet use to do with our Border. When he got good at that, we sent him out in Bullets flight boots to add weight to his body and if not the flight boots a backpack weighed down.
That was on top of the weather, rain, heat, humidity he did it in all of them.
He was very appreciative when he got to school, because as a typical freshman his 1st week they all hung out late at night getting to know everyone on the floor or in the building. And it paid off, he had the 3rd fastest time, only was slower to Xcountry cadets. To this day as a C400, he is either the Pacer or the guy in the back pushing them faster as a POC. Again, he was never a runner, it was just he trained in a unique way to get his scores up.
He actually still trains that way, mixes it up all the time.
Candidates need to understand the importance of getting adjusted for the PFT. You do not select the date or the time or the weather. If it is 5 a.m. and 90% humidity at 88 degrees, you will perform the test in those conditions.
If you are going to a college that has a higher altitude prepare yourself. If you are going to a school in the South and you are from Maine prepare for it.
To me that is also 1 reason for not passing. It happens all the time at the SA's. Cadets are not ready for the alt. or heat adjustment.
Pima
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gstudent99,
I hope you did not take mine as they were non deserving of a scholarship. My issue is and has always been the run. Your DS obviously passed it.
The push ups is where I think most cadets get hurt. As I stated earlier, and as you illustrated, the incorrect form hurt him.
He had @ 20 push ups not counted, which means he hurt himself regarding the amount of energy he exerted.
What this thread really diverted into was more about the run, which is something every cadet has control over. Form for push-ups and sit-ups are easily corrected to pass the next time out, because the cadre will illustrate the proper form and now they will not exert extra energy by doing it improperly.
I hope you did not take mine as they were non deserving of a scholarship. My issue is and has always been the run. Your DS obviously passed it.
The push ups is where I think most cadets get hurt. As I stated earlier, and as you illustrated, the incorrect form hurt him.
He had @ 20 push ups not counted, which means he hurt himself regarding the amount of energy he exerted.
What this thread really diverted into was more about the run, which is something every cadet has control over. Form for push-ups and sit-ups are easily corrected to pass the next time out, because the cadre will illustrate the proper form and now they will not exert extra energy by doing it improperly.
Shaving 4 minutes off a run, unless you were sick that day is next to impossible. Even if you were sick, the BN would not hold this against you. Not sick, but out of shape is a different story. IMPO a cadet that has a scholarship only has that as their excuse for doing so poorly and I am not even addressing the weight, the SUs and PUs.Jcleppe said:
Speaking of APFT, does anyone have any recent information about when the NEW APFT which I think is going to be called the Army Physical Readiness Test (APRT), as described here: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/03/army-first-look-at-new-pt-030411w/ will be implemented in ROTC? There will be a separate "Army Combat Readiness Test" which sounds like the tests they give aspiring firefighters.
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gstudent99
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Pima.
It was some of the other comments more than yours that seem to indicate some students were less than deserving.
It seems I messed up my first post and accidentally deleted it when I was trying to edit.
My gist was that my son had prepared and still failed because he was training on his own (he came close, just failed on technique). I don't think it is a big deal for them to fail early on. They are there to learn. This is part of the learning.
They all have the whole first semester to get it right. Sure they may miss out on stipend money in the interim but still only temporary.
I didn't expect him to be perfect in Calculus (even though he got a 4 on the AP exam) when he got to school and I didn't expect him to be perfect in the ROTC arena either.
Its more what he does from this point on rather than this past summer.
It was some of the other comments more than yours that seem to indicate some students were less than deserving.
It seems I messed up my first post and accidentally deleted it when I was trying to edit.
My gist was that my son had prepared and still failed because he was training on his own (he came close, just failed on technique). I don't think it is a big deal for them to fail early on. They are there to learn. This is part of the learning.
They all have the whole first semester to get it right. Sure they may miss out on stipend money in the interim but still only temporary.
I didn't expect him to be perfect in Calculus (even though he got a 4 on the AP exam) when he got to school and I didn't expect him to be perfect in the ROTC arena either.
Its more what he does from this point on rather than this past summer.
I look at it this way. DS got a letter early this summer saying that as an incoming CE major he needed to take on on-line Math Assessment test no later than 2 weeks before orientation, and then to bring the results with him. Indicated minimum score to pass and start out in Calc I, and if didn't pass and depending on how far below the min what types of remedial courses he might have to take to get caught up. He learned more about the nature of the test, boned up on things for a week and then passed without any problem.
Similarly, he received a letter in June saying the first thing he would be doing when he reported in August was takiing his APFT. Described the tests, detailed the proper form for SUs and PUs, score sheet and a suggested work-out plan. He worked the plan in with his other routine, showed up fit and prepared, and passed with no problem. He figured the run would be his biggest challenge, so he put a lot of extra effort getting ready for that. He said it also helped the next day when they ran through their first couple of FLRC's. Again, he said you could tell who was/wasn't in shape. Not a good thing when your battalion takes PFT very seriously and does very well when at LDAC.
Similarly, he received a letter in June saying the first thing he would be doing when he reported in August was takiing his APFT. Described the tests, detailed the proper form for SUs and PUs, score sheet and a suggested work-out plan. He worked the plan in with his other routine, showed up fit and prepared, and passed with no problem. He figured the run would be his biggest challenge, so he put a lot of extra effort getting ready for that. He said it also helped the next day when they ran through their first couple of FLRC's. Again, he said you could tell who was/wasn't in shape. Not a good thing when your battalion takes PFT very seriously and does very well when at LDAC.
Ohio2015Parent
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Re: "If you are from Maine and going to a school in the South, prepare yourself"
Well, I'm from Pennsylvania. I go to school in Southern Mississippi. The heat index hasn't really dropped below 100 in the past month and half down here. There was literally no way to prepare myself for that in Pennsylvania....so I moved down here a month before school. I am so thankful for that! I do want to reaffirm everyone saying that a future cadet needs to practice at 05:00. I thought I was ready but had never tried knocking out countless pushups and sittups at 0' dark thirty. That's life. So anyone who isn't in ROTC yet, follow their advice about making sure the conditions you are going to be in are the ones you train to standard in.
Well, I'm from Pennsylvania. I go to school in Southern Mississippi. The heat index hasn't really dropped below 100 in the past month and half down here. There was literally no way to prepare myself for that in Pennsylvania....so I moved down here a month before school. I am so thankful for that! I do want to reaffirm everyone saying that a future cadet needs to practice at 05:00. I thought I was ready but had never tried knocking out countless pushups and sittups at 0' dark thirty. That's life. So anyone who isn't in ROTC yet, follow their advice about making sure the conditions you are going to be in are the ones you train to standard in.
gstudent99
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I don't intend this to be argumentative, so please take this in the light it is given.
It seems to me that the assessment/trial APFT they take the very first day is being over stressed here. It is just that, an assessment of where they are and what they need to work on.
I am not saying that incoming cadets should not prepare prior to showing up. Yes, they should prepare and take some of the advise offered. But it is not a big deal if they do not pass that first morning.
For my son it was "OK, I see I need to work on my PU technique to get it right". For others it was they needed to pick up their pace on the run -which I recognize is a harder task and will probably take longer.
I think the Math assessment test situation someone proposed is not the same thing at all. It was a test to decide which math course the student should be placed. And they didn't have to show up and take it on the spot - I'm sure the results could be much different for a lot of students under those conditions.
It seems to me that the assessment/trial APFT they take the very first day is being over stressed here. It is just that, an assessment of where they are and what they need to work on.
I am not saying that incoming cadets should not prepare prior to showing up. Yes, they should prepare and take some of the advise offered. But it is not a big deal if they do not pass that first morning.
For my son it was "OK, I see I need to work on my PU technique to get it right". For others it was they needed to pick up their pace on the run -which I recognize is a harder task and will probably take longer.
I think the Math assessment test situation someone proposed is not the same thing at all. It was a test to decide which math course the student should be placed. And they didn't have to show up and take it on the spot - I'm sure the results could be much different for a lot of students under those conditions.
LDAC is graded very hard on SU/PU harder then on campus so its best to prepare but looking ahead while you do PU and making sure your body comes down as one unit. Don't or arch or sag at all they will not count.
As an MSI I wouldn't worry much you have 3-years to improve before LDAC. At that point you should be at least 275+
Oh and remember the APFT should be changing in the next year or so. It has more track&field/agility events.
As an MSI I wouldn't worry much you have 3-years to improve before LDAC. At that point you should be at least 275+
Oh and remember the APFT should be changing in the next year or so. It has more track&field/agility events.
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In my battalion you must have a cadre proctored PT test to receive your scholarship. I didn't know there were watered down almost DEP PT like tests available (maybe differs with on-campus vs national?). I understand some of you might have kids who are in the running for scholarship so seeing people with scholarships fail the APFT is unsettling to say the least. However, my opinion as a current TAC/mentor is to give them expectations of what a army officer is supposed to achieve and how failing as a new 2LT is unacceptable. My opinion of course....as scholarships and budgets are dwindling who knows how that policy will change.
Umm Packer there were people implying that scholarship cadets failing their first diagnostic PT test was not up to par and undeserving of a scholarship when there were others (people who could pass it firs time go) in line.
Remember this is a diagnostic test, not record so technically no action is taken against a scholarship in batts where the cadet passed an APFT to get his/her scholarship...Start failing record PT tests and you have a problem.
The new PT test will definitely we something interesting. Looks like it might actually test the physical capabilities of a cadet /gasp!
Umm Packer there were people implying that scholarship cadets failing their first diagnostic PT test was not up to par and undeserving of a scholarship when there were others (people who could pass it firs time go) in line.
Remember this is a diagnostic test, not record so technically no action is taken against a scholarship in batts where the cadet passed an APFT to get his/her scholarship...Start failing record PT tests and you have a problem.
The new PT test will definitely we something interesting. Looks like it might actually test the physical capabilities of a cadet /gasp!
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You don't take the APFT during the application process. You take the APFT when your arrive at school before your scholarship can be activated, pass your good to go, fail and you receive nothing until you pass.
I'm sure every battalion treats the APFT a little different, it also changes with each new PMS.
I can only speak for the battalion my 2 son's belong to. My older son is a MS4, younger son is a new MS1.
During the first APFT for contracting the Col. invited me to come watch. I elected to stay back during the PU and SU, once they said GO for the run I joined the cadre to watch them come in.
A lot of people have said that the first test is just a way to gauge where the cadet is at and what they need to work on, that may be how they relay it to the cadet but behind closed doors they are not happy. The cadets that arrive on scholarship are expected to pass, end of story. I don't know what they told the cadets that didn't pass, but what they told me would curl your hair, needless to say they were not happy.
My point to this thread was that while the cadet will eventually pass, is this really the way you want to start out. Those that don't pass will most likely pass it later and make great officers but why start that journey in a negative way.
As far as a respectable score as a incoming freshman that would vary by battalion. My son's battalion wants a score of 80 points in each section to stay out of remedial. You need a min. score of 250 to be in the Ranger Challenge class and higher to be on the team. Anything lower then 260 will not be considered for summer schools.
I'm sure every battalion treats the APFT a little different, it also changes with each new PMS.
I can only speak for the battalion my 2 son's belong to. My older son is a MS4, younger son is a new MS1.
During the first APFT for contracting the Col. invited me to come watch. I elected to stay back during the PU and SU, once they said GO for the run I joined the cadre to watch them come in.
A lot of people have said that the first test is just a way to gauge where the cadet is at and what they need to work on, that may be how they relay it to the cadet but behind closed doors they are not happy. The cadets that arrive on scholarship are expected to pass, end of story. I don't know what they told the cadets that didn't pass, but what they told me would curl your hair, needless to say they were not happy.
My point to this thread was that while the cadet will eventually pass, is this really the way you want to start out. Those that don't pass will most likely pass it later and make great officers but why start that journey in a negative way.
As far as a respectable score as a incoming freshman that would vary by battalion. My son's battalion wants a score of 80 points in each section to stay out of remedial. You need a min. score of 250 to be in the Ranger Challenge class and higher to be on the team. Anything lower then 260 will not be considered for summer schools.