Disasterous Consequences for 4 recent USNA Grads

It was big news here in Naples.

Here is the video that was taken last week and the article in the Naples news and our tv station.

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/apr/14/5-men-including-4-naval-officers-training-sentence/

Wildlife protection is very big down here. "The Conservancy of Southwest Florida" that helps to Protecting Southwest Florida’s unique, natural environment and quality of life... now and forever. It's a great group and one that is needed.

It doesn't matter if the young men were SA graduates or from the local U, this would have made the news down here.
 
So I'm going to play Devil's advocate here:

At what level of crime/trouble do you go forth with removing someone from the service?

Is it killing birds? Is it DUI? Is it hiring a prostitute? Participating in frat?

What is the opportunity cost for dropping these individuals from training. They are already in primary...they've already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their Academy education, they've spent an additional hundreds of thousands of dollars on their aviation training to this point.

Should they be punished...absolutely. Should they be charged with a court martial? Probably not. Should they be dropped from aviation...maybe/probably.

I don't know the full details, and don't feel really like reading the entire court report...but did they even know what kind of birds they were shooting? Who knows. Anyway....will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
Here is the count from the recovered dead birds:
The birds are protected under the federal Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Officers said 30 were shot and 21 were recovered: 11 White Ibis, three Double-crested Cormorants, two Little Blue Herons, a Tricolored Heron, a Snowy Egret, a Cattle Egret, and two Tree Swallows.
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KP2001 - I see your point and this may provide somewhat of an answer:
Defense attorney Lee Hollander of Naples, who represented Wilhelm, said there wasn’t much negotiating in terms of the plea agreement, but he called it fair.
“The big fear for the four U.S. Naval air trainees is being severed from the service,” Hollander said, adding that the men pleaded to a Class B misdemeanor, not a Class A misdemeanor or a felony. “It’s up to their base commanders in Corpus Christi and Pensacola.”
Navy officials have said they’re conducting their own investigation and the men were placed on administrative hold pending the outcome of the federal case.
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What I am inferring is that the Class B misdemeanor is not an automatic separation - up to the base commander; however a Class A misdemeanor or felony likely would be a separation.
I am not sure they could be held for court-martial since this was already disposed of in the federal legal system.
 
kp2001 said:
At what level of crime/trouble do you go forth with removing someone from the service?

Is it killing birds? Is it DUI? Is it hiring a prostitute? Participating in frat?

What is the opportunity cost for dropping these individuals from training. They are already in primary...they've already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their Academy education, they've spent an additional hundreds of thousands of dollars on their aviation training to this point.

Should they be punished...absolutely. Should they be charged with a court martial? Probably not. Should they be dropped from aviation...maybe/probably.

I don't know the full details, and don't feel really like reading the entire court report...but did they even know what kind of birds they were shooting? Who knows. Anyway....will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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At what level of crime/trouble do you go forth with removing someone from the service? It depends on the circumstances and each case should be judged on its own merit.

Is it killing birds? It can be.
Is it DUI? Yes.
Is it hiring a prostitute? Yes.
Participating in frat? Yes.

I've worked for DoD for the past 30 years and I've seen people court-martialed, administratively discharged, barred to re-enlistment, etc. for far less than violating a federal or state law. DUI, hiring a prostitute, fraternizing with subordinates and in this case, killing protected migratory birds are violations of regulations, executive orders or laws.

This sounds like a case of epic bad judgment. We all know that Midshipmen and Cadets have many hours of training in leadership, judgment, and ethics. So did these guys think that was just an academic exercise and didn't apply to life out in the real world? They put some thought into operationalizing someone's great idea ('Hey, let's go out and take pot shots at some of those goofy-looking birds out there in the swamp...') by getting a boat and weapons and ammo, but apparently little thought into researching the location, the type of birds, or the consequences of their actions.

And oh, let's talk a little about honor. Is it honorable for them to hide behind 'Well, no one saw us actually shoot the birds.' Certainly, they are protected from self-incrimination, but did they do the honorable thing? Did their actions or their response to being caught represent the Navy well? I think not. :thumbdown:
 
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kp2001 said:
..but did they even know what kind of birds they were shooting? Who knows.
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EVERY hunter knows his game, knows how to identify the bird he is hunting. No ifs/and/buts, there is no question.

They were not hunting. They were shooting. Nothign wrong with shooting, except you should only be shooting TARGETS (or clays) unless you are HUNTING, which clearly they were not doing. It is illegal to kill any kind of song bird, migratory bird, or waterfowl unless you are legally hunting it. The only bird I know of that can be killed without regard to season or bag limits is the common crow.

I'm certain they never even entertained an idea of using "mistaken specieis identification" as a defense, as it would have been so preposterous it would have been laughed out of the court room.

"Your honor, I thought that Great Blue Heron I killed....
heron.jpg

was a mourning dove,
Mourning-Dove250.jpg


and I mistook the Crested Cormorant....
double-crested-cormorant.jpg

as a bobwhite quail."
bobwhite-quail.jpg
 
kp2001 said:
So I'm going to play Devil's advocate here:

At what level of crime/trouble do you go forth with removing someone from the service?

Is it killing birds? Is it DUI? Is it hiring a prostitute? Participating in frat?

What is the opportunity cost for dropping these individuals from training. They are already in primary...they've already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their Academy education, they've spent an additional hundreds of thousands of dollars on their aviation training to this point.

Should they be punished...absolutely. Should they be charged with a court martial? Probably not. Should they be dropped from aviation...maybe/probably.

I don't know the full details, and don't feel really like reading the entire court report...but did they even know what kind of birds they were shooting? Who knows. Anyway....will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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They actually went to Rookery Bay National Estuary Research Reserve with nine guns, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and a small boat. One boy is local, a few others from florida.
The White Ibis is a bird that we see frequently, even in our yards.
Here's a great picture of one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_White_Ibis

Personally, I do agree with your feelings on the case. It will be interesting to see just how this plays out.
 
I am not sure they could be held for court-martial since this was already disposed of in the federal legal system.
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Actually they sure could.

They would be charged under the UCMJ for violation of various punitive articles. They are NOT the "same" charges that have already been adjudicated.

Example: I sat on a court martial for a member that was caught by the local authorities at a "hash" party. In the state we were in, possession of less than something like 1/2 oz was a misdemeanor.

So he went to court and was fined several hundred dollars and that was basically it.

THEN the military justice system fired up...several charges under UCMJ...results were loss of stripes, loss of pay, bad conduct discharge.

No double jeopardy issues...UCMJ is different.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
Flieger - excellent point, thanks!

kp2001 - to counter your devil's advocate argument that the Navy has already spent $$$$$ on these officers..... should that play into the question? Once it does, doesn't it open a big can of worms that some officers are too *valuable* to be disciplined/discharged?
 
Luigi59 is correct. Any hunter knows what they are hunting and shooting at. If they don't they are a moron.
 
Well, some people are morons... If that's the case, here, I don't want these guys in charge of protecting me!
Don't want them protecting the country either. What happens when they get their M-4's?
 
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4 USNA grads '09 (?)

I know that these idiots got away with this in Florida courts. But does any one know if the Navy 'did the right thing?' By that I mean......treated them like the criminals they became that day.
Joseph Gursky, and Cullen Shaughnessy, Mark L. McClure & Alexander B. Wilhelm Jr
 
I haven't heard for certain about these guys, but given the Navy's desire/need to downsize, my guess is that they are no longer commissioned officers, and they are in debt for their education. I KNOW from my soon-to-be Ensign that at least five members of 2012 have been separated in recent months for various offenses, and they are all going to have payback requirements. That's not even mentioning the ones from 2010 and 2011 who are being washed out of flight/NFO school.
 
You all do know that you're replying to a thread that is MORE THAN 2 YEARS OLD? Right?
 
Watched the video on the military channel. How did that happen? Anyone remember Belgium and the Netherlands? France forgot the back door.
 
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