Discharged DADT Cadet escorts Lady Gaga to VMA's in INDIA WHITES

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Sorry BR2011, but I DON'T and WON'T respect her. And it has NOTHING to do with her being gay.

Don't kid yourself, it has EVERYTHING to do with her "being" gay.

Just re-read some of the comments - how you cannot see the bigotry expressed toward her or any other gay person is remarkable, 'cause we can all see it loud and clear.

I disagree PIMA, the fact that she is a homosexual is the underlying thought behind it all.

Of course.

It kind of reminds me of the flag burning aqrgument. While I might or might not agree with her methods, it is great that she lives in a country where she can express her views, isn't it?

Exactly.
 
No luigi; it has NOTHING to do with her being gay, and you know NOTHING of what I mean. How you come off pretending that you know what goes through another person's mind is utterly ridiculous. Have you heard me make comments about any other gays? Have I written anything about the others on stage with her? Luigi; if you want to go back in the corner and pretend you know what people "MEAN" when they speak, then fine. But I suggest you keep it to yourself unless you have something substantial to back it up with. Otherwise, you only demonstrate that you are narrow minded on this topic, and aren't willing to try and see another person's viewpoint. It takes away any credibility you might be trying to portray.
 
Mongo is right, they are Veterans for VA purposes. They could, for instance, get service connection for any disability incurred in their time at the SA. Thus, if she had a knee injury or something, she could get compensation benefits as well as treatment for that condition.

I think also those who have served two years who are under Medicaid or have non-service connected disabilities and meet certain household income restrictions.

JAM, you are incorrect about wartime service. Try to keep your comments slightly less personal and accusatory. If you want have a discussion about what defines wartime service, feel free to PM. This young lady does not meet the criteria.

Are you confusing Army regulations in re wearing a combat badge with Federal regulations defining wartime service? The federal definition of wartime service is a big deal with the VA and Congress establishes both the period and the eligiblity. Service in a combat zone is not necessary.
 
Don't kid yourself, it has EVERYTHING to do with her "being" gay.

Just re-read some of the comments - how you cannot see the bigotry expressed toward her or any other gay person is remarkable, 'cause we can all see it loud and clear.

Of course! A time-tested tactic! When you run out of facts to shore up the argument, you can negate the preponderance of evidence your opponents have brought to bear by simply decrying them as bigots.
 
No luigi; it has NOTHING to do with her being gay, and you know NOTHING of what I mean. How you come off pretending that you know what goes through another person's mind is utterly ridiculous.
Apparently you seem to think that you have a pretty good handle on her motives (read-what is going on in her mind).
 
I am sure she had good legal advice concerning wearing the uniform:

Stolen Valor Act was deemed unconstitutional because it violates freedom of speech. If this is true for medals, it only follows that it would also be true for the wearing of uniforms.

I don't think anyone can argue that her wearing of the uniform was not a political "statement".

Perfectly defendable as a constitutional right of freedom of speech. I myself could probably win that one in court.
 
Beautifully stated!

If anyone can defend her position for wearing the uniform in honor, go for it!

She didn't wear it to dishonor anyone. She wore it in defiance of what she thinks is a social injustice which to me is as honorable and American as you can get.

To whoever said she wasted tax money by purposely attending only 2 years for class credit: You are allowed to leave before 2 years, many do it and it is a perfectly acceptable decision. And unless USMA is 1000 times easier to make it through than CGA, there are easier ways to get free credits than a SA where the most difficult years are the first ones.

Finally, I don't want immigration to take over this thread but I feel the the opposition to both issues are similarly intolerant. I'll leave this thread with one last comment on it.

90 Haitians sitting shoulder to shoulder on a less-than seaworthy 50ft sail freighter, in their own excrement, and dying of hunger and thirst are not coming to America to be criminals. They are humans like you and I who are willing to die trying to find a better life.
 
I am sure she had good legal advice concerning wearing the uniform:

Stolen Valor Act was deemed unconstitutional because it violates freedom of speech. If this is true for medals, it only follows that it would also be true for the wearing of uniforms.

I don't think anyone can argue that her wearing of the uniform was not a political "statement".

Perfectly defendable as a constitutional right of freedom of speech. I myself could probably win that one in court.

While I won't profess to know whether or not she, or any of the other former military members sought the advice of counsel prior to their appearance in uniform, federal law is fairly clear on who can and who can NOT wear military uniforms.

And no, it's not related at all to the Stolen Valor Act; it's been in federal law for much longer to protect folks from persons impersonating military members. And an argument could be made that all four were indeed impersonating members of the armed forces, although I can't really see anyone pursuing that.

But it does bring up an interesting area of conversation/discussion.

FYI...the actual federal law that could/would deal with this is: 10USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771-772.
(And when you get to "E" about the wartime question, you need to dig MUCH deeper to see what the gov't determines is war or not and whether the individual served then... I won't suppose here; that's for the service JAG's and the other suits to decide.)

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
As for her burning bridges; I hope she has. I hope the DADT policy is repealed soon; but I hope she is not allowed back in the military. "Sorry, we're all filled up". She has no respect for the military. She's an opportunist. She has no idea what "Service before Self" even implies. If she did, she wouldn't have turned this into a dog and pony show. No one has a "Right" to be in the military and to serve their country. It's an honor and a privilege. Unfortunately, there are some people out there that are too self centered and only look at how it affects them. They have no idea what "Sacrifice" means.

One thing I am going to say is essential to every cadet and we can all agree on is “Sacrifice”. If you are not willing, and furthermore READY to die for USA, don’t join. Nobody will think any less of a man or woman who decides not to join the military because of an innate human fear of death. The thing is too many people are not ready to die who join, some drop out before they are committed. I think that is honorable, very honorable in fact. It takes great courage to give up all that the academies have to offer because you know you can’t make it. Going through with it when you haven’t accepted death as a possibility, and ready to die. Inevitably it could lead to the death of all the men (and women)in your company. Not everybody is ready for that, and acceptance of that is honorable. Sacrificing one of the best education’s money can buy, for free. Not to mention everything else the Academies offer, because you accept it’s not for you, and the lives of the people around you is too great of a responsibility for you. Honorable. End of story. We all can agree on that.

On the other hand, Accepting an appointment which thousands of Americans would do anything for, knowing the DADT policy, with all intention of staying, is also still honorable. It turns to dishonor when you either go in with the intent of either 5 and dive, or not even making it to the point where you commit to AD. With the intent of taking advantage of the GI bill, the $400,000 scholarship to one of the best colleges in USA, and to not be ready to die for the country, IN MY OPINION is unacceptable. Now I am not specifying anybody here for all I know she came in wanting to die, and serve honorably. But the way you leave is just as important as the way you came. Leaving with your head high, knowing it just wasn’t for you is good. Leaving stomping your feel and hanging your head, is the wrong way to go. For example, in PJ training if an airman decides to drop out they walk out in dress blues knowing “the men who can do that, are incredible, I cant”.

Now to go on topic, she came in with an unknown intent, so we cant judge her on that. Maybe she was brave enough to join knowing the DADT policy, and I commend her. But like I said the way you leave is important too. She left then decided to “make a statement” and in the process she dishonored the men and women who did make it. She decided to rub it in everybody's face by going in from of millions as an open lesbian wearing her dress Army uniform. Clearly not wearing it to honor anybody. My personal belief is that is crossing the line too far. Somebody mentioned earlier that MLK had to cross the line to really make a statement that change is necessary. Just going to the VMAs with Lady Gaga would have been OK. But wearing a uniform symbolizes that she is part of the Army still. She is obviously not a part of the Army any more, so she is showing she can’t accept she’s out of the Army. Not wearing the uniform, and speaking about why gays should be let in the military would not be dishonorable.

The uniform symbolizes so much. To even slightly portray the uniform wrong would cause massive amounts of people to be extremely upset. She should have accounted for that. She got publicity, and she made a statement, but offended an enormous part of the population in the process.
 
And no, it's not related at all to the Stolen Valor Act; it's been in federal law for much longer to protect folks from persons impersonating military members.
Didn't mean to imply that they were related at all. My point is simply that the Stolen Valor Act was declared unconstitutional because it was a violation of free speech.

It was also "(a)in federal law................to protect folks from persons impersonating military members." Would not the same logic apply to wearing uniforms?
 
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Apparently you seem to think that you have a pretty good handle on her motives (read-what is going on in her mind).

I haven't commented on her motives; only her actions. I personally don't care WHY she left. There are hundreds that leave prior to commitment day. Nothing wrong with that. However, her actions are another point. And for those of you who refuse to see that, that is your problem. And that's why you are frustrated with some people's comments. You are convinced that we are either judging her without knowing or motives, or that we must be bigots because she is gay. This is simply ignorance on your part.

This is totally about her actions. She didn't just leave, she made it a media event. She didn't just go to a concert, she went to make a political statement. And to emphasize her beliefs, she wore a military uniform. These are actions. It doesn't matter to me at all WHY she did it. She was wrong, and everyone knows it. I am sure she is not the first gay person to leave the academy or military. Most probably came in honestly believing that they could live my the military's rules and policies. They realized after a set amount of time that they couldn't live that lifestyle. They then chose to leave. They respected the military and it's service members enough to realize that they simply had a set of rules they couldn't live with. Guess what??? There's a LOT OF RULES in the military and life that some of us simply don't like. Most of us choose to play that game by those rules, or not to play that game at all. If you go to your neighbor's house, and they say you must take off your shoes before entering, you must choose to follow their rules or to not come in. If you're on anyone's "Private Property", you either follow their rules, or you are free to leave.

Don't mistake military service as a right. It's not. And if you're fortunate and honored enough to serve in the military, then you agree to live by their rules. If you can't, you are free to leave. If you feel strongly enough about a rule, you are free to go through the proper channels to have it changed. And that's exactly what has been going on since DADT became a rule. People have been working on getting it changed/eliminated. But just because it isn't progressing at the speed an individual likes, doesn't mean they are right in taking matters into their own hands.

And that's exactly where this individual screwed up. They could have stayed in, followed the "Don't Tell" part of the rule, and worked on getting the rule changed. Or, she could have gotten out and taken it upon herself to champion the cause and get the rule changed. But instead of her getting out for "Incompatibility", she chose to have herself portrayed as "The Victim". Sorry, she isn't the victim. The other 4000+ cadets are the victims. Then, when she got out of the academy, she used her uniform and symbolism as a slap in the face to the academies and the military. Sorry, but this is not about her being gay or her motives. It's about her actions. And her actions are totally disrespectful to the academies and the rest of the military. Now, some of you can believe it's bigotry, homophobia, or anything else you want. That only shows your ignorance and lack of an educated response. If you stick to only her actions, you can't but agree that she was wrong.
 
...It was also "(a)in federal law................to protect folks from persons impersonating military members." Would not the same logic apply to wearing uniforms?

First part: sorry, didn't clearly understand your meaning/implication. My bad.

Okay...second part...Hmm...I don't think so and here's why. The Stolen Valor Act actually was pushed through to strengthen 18 U.S.C. § 704. The issue really was the number of "false recipients of decorations, commonly valorous decorations like the Medal of Honor" and how many of these fake heroes were obtaining money, status, honors, etc., by their lies and deceit. So there was a push to make 18 U.S.C. § 704 even more rigid.

The trouble with it was that it painted with more than a broad brush, more like...well an all encompassing dictum, and that won't work.

I don't think prohibiting non-military members from wearing current military uniforms would fail under a free-speech challenge.

But then again...that would ultimately have to be decided by people in black robes.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
I haven't commented on her motives; only her actions.
However, to deem her actions objectionable, one must examine her motives.

Don't Ask Don't Tell undercuts a long-standing honor code that has existed in the armed forces of this country for as long as there's been a military. There are numerous cases on the books where one has not told but was indeed asked. Therefore, to remain in service to their country, DADT, unlike any other policy or regulation before or since, demands that soldiers lie, a direct conflict with a code that demands otherwise, and therefore, contrary to what the policy's supporters claim, is itself damaging to unit cohesiveness. I think she, as a prospective candidate, accepted DADT at face value and did not realize the true dichotomy of her decision until she became embedded in the USMA Honor system. Bottom line, DADT as practiced in today's military and SA honor are incompatable. My opinion is that she is merely doing what she feels is an obligation to prevent other young men and women from making the same mistake that she did. I personally hope that the day after DADT is overturned, she reapplies to WP and is accepted. In the interim I certainly hope those of likewise persuasion adhere to her warnings.
 
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However, to deem her actions objectionable, one must examine her motives.

Don't Ask Don't Tell undercuts a long-standing honor code that has existed in the armed forces of this country for as long as there's been a military. There are numerous cases on the books where one has not told but was indeed asked. Therefore, to remain in service to their country, DADT demands that soldiers lie, a direct conflict with a code that demands otherwise, and therefore, contrary to what the policy's supporters claim, is itself damaging to unit cohesiveness.

Yes and no. Per DADT policy and training, if a servicemember is asked about sexual orientation that does not refer to a situation where evidence of homosexual conduct exists, the proper answer is "Sir/Ma'am, per DOD policy I am forbidden by regulations to discuss this subject with you."

DADT is hardly a perfect policy, but please don't act as though you are the first mind to ever consider the problem of lying as it pertains to DADT. Lying is hardly the only result of DADT, regardless of our opposition to the idea/policy.

FYI, the full policy is Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass. There is more to it than what we and the media have discussed here.
 
I think also those who have served two years who are under Medicaid or have non-service connected disabilities and meet certain household income restrictions.

.

For treatment, yes.
 
Yes and no. Per DADT policy and training, if a servicemember is asked about sexual orientation that does not refer to a situation where evidence of homosexual conduct exists, the proper answer is "Sir/Ma'am, per DOD policy I am forbidden by regulations to discuss this subject with you."

FYI, the full policy is Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass. There is more to it than what we and the media have discussed here.
We all know the differences between what is supposed to be and what actually happens.

DADT is hardly a perfect policy, but please don't act as though you are the first mind to ever consider the problem of lying as it pertains to DADT. Lying is hardly the only result of DADT, regardless of our opposition to the idea/policy.

LOL. Are you implying that only original thought is acceptable on this forum?

It appears to me that you agree that lying is, in paractice, a result of DADT. Do you further agree that this lying is incompatable with the honor ideals of the academy?

OBTW, since you were about 0 for 3 on this thread, I thought you were through with it.
 
We all know the differences between what is supposed to be and what actually happens.



LOL. Are you implying that only original thought is acceptable on this forum?

It appears to me that you agree that lying is, in paractice, a result of DADT. Do you further agree that thisw lying is incompatable with the honor ideals of the academy?

OBTW, since you were about 0 for 3 on this thread, I thought you were through with it.

Clearly original thought is not the only thing welcome, or this would be a bare forum! :wink: But when you keep trotting out the same banners over and over and over again, as though they are new and original, you're going to be called on it.

I can't resist pointing out when you trumpet the same point you use for everything "That's dishonorable!" Weren't you the guy who said if you don't spill every detail of your life to your SA buddies, you have no integrity? I'd be very careful with your use of omission as being equivalent to dishonor, lest facts you've consciously omitted be brought up again.

OBTW, 0 for 3? Aren't you the one who tried to claim they're entitled to a slew of VA benefits without digging any deeper? Feel free to show me ANYWHERE in the USC (since we seem to believe that's the only source of law, period) that she is DEFINED as having served during wartime. As far as the U.S. Army is concerned, she has not.

Lastly, no, I stepped out because I was fairly certainly the lock/banstick was coming, which lately seems to correlate with threads that certain people have been posting in.
 
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Never stated anything about spilling every detail. Was simply attempting to point out that evasiveness can lead to a sense of dishonesty.

In relation to the uniform, we are discussing federal law, not the Army's regulations for wearing a patch. They are, indeed, different.

I think we have pretty much established burial, some health, and home loan eligibility for VA, have we not?

Are you ignoring the real reason for my last post:
Do you further agree that this lying is incompatable with the honor ideals of the academy?
 
Feel free to show me ANYWHERE in the USC (since we seem to believe that's the only source of law, period) that she is DEFINED as having served during wartime. As far as the U.S. Army is concerned, she has not
You keep saying this but how do you know this? If a kid enlists in the Army and serves for three years yet never leaves the states does this count as serving during wartime?
What is your definition of wartime service? You were wrong on a number of your other 'facts' so how do YOU know what the ARMY considers?

The Army awards (gives) the National Service Defense Medal to all soldiers who serve in the time of a National Emergency - whether or not they are directly involved. This included West Point Cadets. They are considered soldiers who served in the time of a National Emergency.

Scoutpilot, Pima and Christcorps - clarify for me just what your objections are - to her specifically or all four former service members.
 
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