disenrolled 22 days before graduation

Pima

10-Year Member
bigdog,

I would not go with that theory of blood and a stone. Ability to pay will be part of the negotiations, but if they can get the blood from ROTC grads than they can get it from an AFA grad.

Of course, if he doesn't receive his degree, and must go back to school for a few more yrs., than that might be a negotiating factor in his case.

It truly is a case by case. I would certainly hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I would plan to pay at least a low 6 figure number back.

Remember, this is also the yr of sequestration and huge budget cuts. What might have been the practice in 10, or 11 or even 12, might not be the case for 13.

I would also think about contacting an employment recruiter/consultant to discuss his employment opportunities as a college grad, be it now if the AFA does allow him to graduate, but not commission (if that is even possible) or a yr or two from now when he finishes up at another college. From an HR perspective, I would think being dis-enrolled 3 weeks prior to commissioning would be addressed in an interview.

~~~ Why were you dis-enrolled?
~~ He can shade it, to just demerits, but that still is saying to a potential employer that after @4 yrs in a strict environment he had problems following rules and regulations.
~~ He can say I decided not to serve. Still an issue, because he is saying a negative...commitment issues.

It would be a red flag if not handled correctly.

I really hope they don't slap him with a bill, especially if I am reading this correct he will not have a degree. No degree would translate into going back and incurring debt. Even if he lives at home, and goes IS for 18 months, he is looking at in our state, 20K in tuition. I would also assume by now he took that lovely 35K starter loan.

Our DS commissioned AFROTC, so his starter came via USAA. There was fine print on that loan. Leave before the ADSO and it goes from 2.74% to APR + 9.99%. Our DS is at UPT now. He read the fine print, and the fear of if he busted UPT they could cut him loose, took only 10K. He bought his car using the 0% loan offer from Toyota.

This is why I am saying at this time talk to a financial adviser. Even if he gets off scott free from the AFA bill, he will have bills, some that probably has not even come into your minds yet, like the starter loan or the debt he will incur attending another college. For our kids colleges, (3 kids/3 different colleges), each and every college has the same rule....60 credits must be obtained at their college to receive a degree from their school.

I would start planning for the next stage while holding out for hope.

~Looking into where he will get a degree from, because it will hard for him to get in this fall at many colleges, without assistance from admissions.
~ Contacting head hunters if he will get the degree even if dis-enrolled. They may say take a yr and get a Masters.
~ Paying back that starter loan if there is fine print regarding the loan.


I know you may feel like people are being harsh, but it is hard for most of us to wrap our heads around the thought that he pushed the envelope with his GF staying in his room when he already knew he was on thin ice for other issues and only a few weeks left.

My heart goes out to you. I don't think there is enough wine for me to make it through your situation. Actually, I don't think there is enough Jack Daniels. We all are here to listen/read your fears and concerns. The military is a unique world. Outsiders don't get it.

Best hopes, thoughts and prayers.
Pima
 

LineInTheSand

USCGA 2006
10-Year Member
Oh no, I think bigdog is being very reasonable as a parent. I haven't seen any excuses. Not sure if the severity of a sleepover is being communicated, but I've found bigdog's response what you would hope to have from a parent.
 

JMS

5-Year Member
I gather from all this that the individual had issues, but they appear to be related to conduct and behavior as opposed to academic. If his academics were all in order, and he will be forced to pay for his education, it seems that he should at least get a degree at this late date. I can understand that a degree from the academy may be too much to expect, but are there schools (ie Faber College) ;-) that will take these credits and, understanding the circumstances at least give the kid a degree? I imagine it would facilitate the gov't getting repaid.
 

bigdog77515

5-Year Member
the blood out of a turnip comment was because i read a report that said in the past they are not collecting the money or doing a good job even trying to collect the money. i don't have 10 or more posts, so this site won't let me post the link. LOL!
 

Christcorp

10-Year Member
I gather from all this that the individual had issues, but they appear to be related to conduct and behavior as opposed to academic. If his academics were all in order, and he will be forced to pay for his education, it seems that he should at least get a degree at this late date. I can understand that a degree from the academy may be too much to expect, but are there schools (ie Faber College) ;-) that will take these credits and, understanding the circumstances at least give the kid a degree? I imagine it would facilitate the gov't getting repaid.
The academies are "Accredited Universities". The air force academy is accredited through the Higher Learning Commission, through the North Central Association of Colleges and schools. This is the same accreditation that the University Of Wyoming, The same as Colorado State University. The same as all colleges/universities in the North Central area.

As such; just about ANY college/university in the country will allow all of their credits to be transferred to their school for a degree. However; realize that almost every school in the country has some sort of residency requirement. "Not STATE Residency", but SCHOOL RESIDENCY. I.e. You MUST have at least 30 credit hours from the school in which you are getting the degree from. In other words, the university of colorado isn't going to allow you to bring 140 credits from the air force academy and automatically give you a degree. They'll let you bring ALL 140 credit; but they will require that you take 30 credit hours of THEIR classes to establish a degree that will have THEIR NAME on it.
 

Luigi59

Banned
I gather from all this that the individual had issues, but they appear to be related to conduct and behavior as opposed to academic. If his academics were all in order, and he will be forced to pay for his education, it seems that he should at least get a degree at this late date.
Courts have ruled otherwise. Not completing all the requirements precludes the award of the degree, as the degree represents more than just academics.
 

mbitr

5-Year Member
I'm sorry for you and your son. While it is saddening that he likely won't have a career as a military officer, at least you can take some comfort in the fact that it isn't for lack of ability. Asking two kids to suppress their feelings for each other for four years is difficult. What he did doesn't show a lack of suitability to be an officer, it shows that he's human. Relationships like that happen every day, even on deployment. Unfortunately he's held to a standard that his peers in ROTC are not. I hope he gets right back in the saddle.
 

Stealth_81

Super Moderator
10-Year Member
Founding Member
I'm sorry for you and your son. While it is saddening that he likely won't have a career as a military officer, at least you can take some comfort in the fact that it isn't for lack of ability. Asking two kids to suppress their feelings for each other for four years is difficult. What he did doesn't show a lack of suitability to be an officer, it shows that he's human. Relationships like that happen every day, even on deployment. Unfortunately he's held to a standard that his peers in ROTC are not. I hope he gets right back in the saddle.
I think some people are not getting the whole picture of what it means that the girlfriend spent the night. No one ever said that the two couldn't show their feelings or even sleep together if they wished. The point is that it was in the cadet's room at USAFA. The two cadet dorms are in the Cadet Area of USAFA which is a military base. The Cadet Area is a restricted area which requires a CAC card for entry and is surrounded by a large fence with gates and guards. Having an unauthorized guest in a restricted area is a huge issue. Think security.

Stealth_81
 

LineInTheSand

USCGA 2006
10-Year Member
I gather from all this that the individual had issues, but they appear to be related to conduct and behavior as opposed to academic. If his academics were all in order, and he will be forced to pay for his education, it seems that he should at least get a degree at this late date.
Yes, that would seem a bit much. Here, get an education that involves service, screw up, but still get your degree. Can't say that would be especially great for USAFA's image.
 

burnerafter16

5-Year Member
I really feel sorry for the parents and I hope that they find the best contingency and have their son redirect his future.
Since this forum is frequented by would be applicants and future cadets, this serves as precautionary testament to the Military World they're getting into especially the higher expectations of a Service Academy.
Not to speculate but if the girl friend is also a cadet, would she be getting the same punishment?
 

mbitr

5-Year Member
I think some people are not getting the whole picture of what it means that the girlfriend spent the night. No one ever said that the two couldn't show their feelings or even sleep together if they wished. The point is that it was in the cadet's room at USAFA. The two cadet dorms are in the Cadet Area of USAFA which is a military base. The Cadet Area is a restricted area which requires a CAC card for entry and is surrounded by a large fence with gates and guards. Having an unauthorized guest in a restricted area is a huge issue. Think security.

Stealth_81
I understand the distinction, I just question whether or not its overly draconian in this day and age. I'm not familiar with the Academy, but I'd be surprised if there aren't installations with bigger security concerns that are easier for civilians to access. But I just wanted to express my sympathy for the young man and his family, this thread doesn't seem like the place to jump into all that.
 

Christcorp

10-Year Member
I'm sorry for you and your son. While it is saddening that he likely won't have a career as a military officer, at least you can take some comfort in the fact that it isn't for lack of ability. Asking two kids to suppress their feelings for each other for four years is difficult. What he did doesn't show a lack of suitability to be an officer, it shows that he's human. Relationships like that happen every day, even on deployment. Unfortunately he's held to a standard that his peers in ROTC are not. I hope he gets right back in the saddle.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this comment. It's a matter of following rules. 1) This is NOT the only thing he did against the rules. 2) No matter what the rules are; "If you want to play the game, you have to play by the rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game".

He had 4 years to decide that he didn't agree, like, or want to live by the rules. He could have easily quit. And these same relationships that happen "Every day, even in deployments", could also result in administrative/displinary actions. There are rules in ROTC, the academy, enlisted, etc... He could have easily had his relationship in a non-prohibited place. I'm not trying to be harsh, but having MANY infractions with the rules, demonstrates that he probably is unsuitable to be an officer. Do individuals make mistakes? Yes. That's why he wasn't dismissed "X" number of infractions ago. But there are SOME infractions that even by themselves cross the line. What if he was 20 years old and caught drunk driving? What if he was caught using drugs? Is your reply to be that "He's just human". "Everyone does it". etc...

I too hope that he picks himself up and moves on to a very rewarding career in whatever that may be. But to "Rationalize" such behavior will result in not learning from such mistakes; and therefor, possibly committing similar mistakes again in the future. There's a lot of rules I didn't like in the military. A lot I don't like working in Civilian companies. But that's not the point. If I want to be a part of those organizations, then I follow their rules. I don't disobey them and rationalize it as natural or that everyone does it.
 

Jcleppe

5-Year Member
Unfortunately he's held to a standard that his peers in ROTC are not.
This standard you mention may be in regards to rules and regulation, but from what I have read about repayment, the SA's seem to be arbitrary on how much if any re-payment will be required. ROTC Cadets seem to be held at a higher standard when it comes to re-payment, there are no negotiations other then how long they are allowed to pay back. If you quit, or are disenrolled for other then medical reasons, you owe the amount of tuition paid, period, if you are not allowed to enlist, there are no waivers. It seems that the SA's can be much more lenient, so your correct, the standards are not the same.
 

usna1985

10-Year Member
^^^

I doubt that, if the GF is a cadet. If she were, having her in his room wouldn't be an issue. The only issue would be if they were having sex in the dorm; that is prohibited. IOW, you can't have a civilian in your room w/o authorization (GF, BF, BFF, whatever). Having sex with anyone in your dorm room is a separate -- and more serious -- violation. At least it was in my day.

~~~ Why were you dis-enrolled?
~~ He can shade it, to just demerits, but that still is saying to a potential employer that after @4 yrs in a strict environment he had problems following rules and regulations.
~~ He can say I decided not to serve. Still an issue, because he is saying a negative...commitment issues.
I wouldn't go with the second one b/c it's not true (assuming the cadet is separated). You never know who may know of your situation . . . and starting out one's new life by lying . . . just isn't great.:rolleyes:

As for payback . . . one thing to keep in mind. If the military asserts the debt and you don't repay it (or get behind schedule), you get put on a government "
"ineligibility" list which can preclude you from working with any company that does business with the federal government. Trust me, that's most of the companies that pay well.

Finally, I think Bigdog has been remarkably restrained, given the circumstances. He is simply looking for information at what is clearly a distressing time. Let's all keep that in mind.
 

Pima

10-Year Member
usna,
usna1985 said:
As for payback . . . one thing to keep in mind. If the military asserts the debt and you don't repay it (or get behind schedule), you get put on a government "
"ineligibility" list which can preclude you from working with any company that does business with the federal government. Trust me, that's most of the companies that pay well.
+1 1000%

AFA grads usually are engineering. Can you say Lockheed, Raytheon. Grumman, L3 Comm, Rand, SAIC, Booze Allen, etc.?

Can you say security clearance issues?

usna1985 said:
Finally, I think Bigdog has been remarkably restrained, given the circumstances. He is simply looking for information at what is clearly a distressing time. Let's all keep that in mind.
For me, I have posted on this thread...get a financial adviser. an attorney with military experience, contact a college for them, get in contact with a career counselor. Others have said that too.

JMPO, but we have kept that in mind.
 

tradecraft

5-Year Member
There will be a lot of insensitive and ignorant posts and should be treated plainly as noise. There are a lot of sympathetic people that are providing useful advice. The rest of the world need not know the details besides what you have already disclosed. I can't imagine the disappointment and bewilderment you feel but do focus on what can be done to address the issues such as tuition repayment or the appeal to the superintendent regardless of how futile it might be. There have been similar cases in the past but each is treated on a case to case basis. It would be much better for your son to know what he is responsible for before embarking on a different path to his future.
 

Christcorp

10-Year Member
My theory is that NO set of rules or policies is "Excessive" if an individual knows what they are prior to committing to them; and they accept them as a condition of employment. I think the academies are MORE than generous with their rules. No matter what you think of the rules, you have 2 years and 2 months, that at ANY TIME, you can say: "I quit". And you are 100% free to leave. No commitment. No payback. You can take your 60-70 college credit hours and transfer them to another school and continue on with your life. Sounds pretty generous to me.
 

tradecraft

5-Year Member
The rest of the world needs to know all the details if an accurate answer to the OPs question is expected.
With all due respect, unless you're a lawyer with an expertise on Military Proceedings the OP does not need to divulge any more than what he already has.
 

aglages

10-Year Member
5-Year Member
With all due respect, unless you're a lawyer with an expertise on Military Proceedings the OP does not need to divulge any more than what he already has.
Also with all due respect, if the OP was soliciting opinions only from military lawyers with an expertise on Military Proceedings s/he should have specified that or chosen a different venue to post their question.
 
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