Disenrollment Help

ComputerDad

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Jan 13, 2017
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My DS just informed me that he is being disenrolled.

He is an Army MS4 scholarship cadet but will not be able to graduate in time. He changed majors in his 2nd year from a general degree to a science degree. His commander was the one who actually recommended it. His previous commander recommended the change, and said that he would be able to get an education extension. He has had some GPA issues overall (but as a physics major) and lost his scholarship due to grades related to his Spring 2016 semester. His grades where fine for Fall 2017 and he was expecting his scholarship to be reinstated etc. He was told he is being disenrolled because he won't graduate in time and they declined to give him an extension. He hasn't had discipline or APFT issues at all.

He has been told that he can either enlist or pay back the Army. His first though is to enlist as he still wants to have a military career. His cadre was very confused though on his options. They told him they thought he would enlist as an E4 but be flagged for 4 years preventing promotion or an opportunity to go any schools or anything. They also didn't know if he could repay the scholarship and enlist with no flags. They also didn't know if he could eventually try to commission via OCS if he graduated fine with proper grades ect. His BTN commander really likes him and even offered to write him a letter of recommendation.

So does anyone know what the possibilities are? He isn't making excuses for the situation he is in, or trying to fight the Army's decision, just trying to figure out the best path forward.

Thanks for your input!
 

Jcleppe

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Has he looked into an appeal for the extension, was there ever anything in writing from the commander that recommended the major change and said he could get the extension.

How long would it take for your son to graduate? Is there a possibility he could take summer classes and graduate by August of this year? There was a cadet at my son's school that had to complete some classes over the summer and he was officially commissioned in August once he had completed his requirements for graduation.

I'm sorry but I can't really answer regarding enlistment and how it is handled for cadets that are disenrolled.
 

2018mom

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Computer Dad - I am sorry to hear of your son's situation. My older son had a 4 year NROTC scholarship Marine option and had the scholarship pulled and not allowed to commission. He did earn his degree in 4 years but had the choice of paying back the scholarship or enlisting. He chose to enlist in the Army rather than the Marines (don't know that it was as much his decision as it was the one option open to him). He did enlist as an E4, but that may be because he has his degree already. As far as I know, he doesn't have any "flags" on his enlistment that would prevent him from promotion or even OCS. He has discussed pursuing both. He continues to receive a monthly statement on his debt to the government, but two years after enlistment and successful services, his debt will be forgiven - he has that in writing.

For what it is worth, he seems to be enjoying what he is doing and as hard as the initial curve ball was, I think he is doing well and this may be the path he was supposed to be on.
 

ComputerDad

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His BTN commander did tell him he thought he would be a fantastic soldier and would be a good fit for the Army, just not through ROTC. His APFT is 270+, and he has never been in trouble. He does have a few months to decide what his path forward is... I am just trying to understand all of the options. Especially with how bad his unit is at times of getting good info to the cadets. They have gone through 3 commanders in two years... and the CO and BTN commanders he had worked out his new class schedule and extension all are long gone (the BTN cmdr was relieved of duty, it was messy). He kind of feels left out to dry, but also feels he should have pushed harder for the extension with the new command and stayed on top of it. Though having a bad semester even after working with the old command was on him. He accepts this and doesn't feel he should hire a lawyer/consultant and fight it or anything.

He is just trying to make the best decision going forward. His repayment would not be insane... maybe $20k total. Less than many students graduate with in student loan debt. To him it is about deciding if he wants a military career, and understanding how this effects him. If this puts a 'mark' on him even as enlisted and holds him back in some way he would likely just choose the civilian route.
 

Jcleppe

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The one restriction that I know of that is placed on cadets that repay their scholarship obligation with enlistment is that if they just complete the initial obligation, they will not be eligible for the GI Bill. They would need to complete extra years of enlistment once they have fulfilled their obligation. This is the same for those scholarship cadets that do commission, if they only do their initial 4 year AD obligation they are not eligible for the GI Bill.
 

Humey

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Just read a blog of a AF Rotc candidate that commissioned about 10 years ago and was able to get a pilot spot. When he went to the initial pilot training program, he decided flying wasnt for him and didnt want to waste their time. He didnt want to leave the AF, he just wanted to go into intelligence. He and other guys who didnt want to fly (I am assuming the rest were pilots) had to be reviewed by a board. Of the 19 in his group, 17 was thrown out of the Air force. Anyone who gone through the academy or had received a scholarship were told they had to repay the Air Force. I personally think that is insane. Since was the AF decision to get rid of them, they shouldnt have had a right to request repayment.
 

Jcleppe

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personally think that is insane. Since was the AF decision to get rid of them, they shouldn't have had a right to request repayment.

The issue here is that it was the Airmen's decision to take the pilot training, that in itself comes with an added obligation, they started initial training and it was their decision to drop from the program. At that point it is completely up to the Air Force to decide what to do with them. While it may have been the AF that decided to cut them loose, it was the Airmen's decision that put them in that situation. It's not the AF's job to find them something else to do when they make the decision to drop from training.
 

sheriff3

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OP did your son do the 104r form every year? This is the form that is mandated by the Army to track and make sure your son is on track to graduate on time. If this form was not completed or done in a timely fashion he may have grounds for an appeal of the non extension. $20k and loosing out in the opportunity to commission is a big deal, certainly worth a $150-$200 consult with an attorney IMPO. Good luck.
 

Capt MJ

Formerly Known As Attila The Hunnette
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OP did your son do the 104r form every year? This is the form that is mandated by the Army to track and make sure your son is on track to graduate on time. If this form was not completed or done in a timely fashion he may have grounds for an appeal of the non extension. $20k and loosing out in the opportunity to commission is a big deal, certainly worth a $150-$200 consult with an attorney IMPO. Good luck.

My thoughts also went to getting a legal opinion. There are many law firms, often staffed by former JAGs, who specialize in administrative issues related to ROTC and Service Academies, as well as criminal matters.

Google "military lawyers ROTC disenrollment." You'll come up with entries similar to below, though I am not endorsing these, just offering examples. Since there seems to be a lot of confusion about your son's options, this might be worth considering. Often, they will do a free consult to assess the case.

http://www.militarydefense.com/Practice-Areas/ROTC-Disenrollment.shtml

https://www.domeklaw.com/disenrollment-hearings-and-recoupment-actions.html

http://www.tullylegal.com/washingto...tary-law/rotc-military-academy-disenrollment/
 

MohawkArmyROTC

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The ROTC unit can either disenroll your son due to breach of contract, if he is not graduating by the date listed on his DA 597-3 or they can migrate him to a later graduation/commissioning date. When a cadet is migrated in can be with either an extension of benefits or without. I am assuming that they do not wish to commission your son as they have not migrated him and are probably disenrolling him due to breach of contract. All scholarship cadets have the option to appear before a disenrollment board to get a decision on retention or they can waive their rights and be disenrolled without one.

He will have the choice of either serving on Active Duty for 4 years or to pay back the scholarship. Once separated from the Army he will have a derogatory re-enlistment code, and will need a re-enlistment waiver if he wants to get back into the Army and have a military career.

It will be hard for him to get accepted to OCS as he would have been previously disenrolled from an officer producing program.

To get specific answers about your sons predicament, you should speak to the ROTC program's Recruiting Operations Officer.
 
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QA1517

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He will have the choice of either serving on Active Duty for 4 years or to pay back the scholarship. Once separated from the Army he will have a derogatory re-enlistment code, and will need a re-enlistment waiver if he wants to get back into the Army and have a military career.

I always wondered if cadets that were dis-enrolled were given the chance to re-enlist or if it was you serve this amount of time and that's it.
 

5Day

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It is the Army's choice of payback or enlistment. You can express your preference but it is ultimately the Army chooses.
 

ComputerDad

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OP did your son do the 104r form every year? This is the form that is mandated by the Army to track and make sure your son is on track to graduate on time. If this form was not completed or done in a timely fashion he may have grounds for an appeal of the non extension. $20k and loosing out in the opportunity to commission is a big deal, certainly worth a $150-$200 consult with an attorney IMPO. Good luck.

His former commander is the one who helped him with the new plan. They did a new 104r for 5 years. He changed majors and had to also retake a couple of classes. He has been waiting on an extension for 18 months at least. His command was aware of the fact that he wouldn't finish in 4 years. That commander is now gone of course. He went to Advanced camp over the summer and even got attended CTLT where we got an amazing OER.

He wasn't expecting an extension of scholarship, just an extra year to finish up.
 

ComputerDad

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The ROTC unit can either disenroll your son due to breach of contract, if he is not graduating by the date listed on his DA 597-3 or they can migrate him to a later graduation/commissioning date. When a cadet is migrated in can be with either an extension of benefits or without. I am assuming that they do not wish to commission your son as they have not migrated him and are probably disenrolling him due to breach of contract. All scholarship cadets have the option to appear before a disenrollment board to get a decision on retention or they can waive their rights and be disenrolled without one.

He will have the choice of either serving on Active Duty for 4 years or to pay back the scholarship. Once separated from the Army he will have a derogatory re-enlistment code, and will need a re-enlistment waiver if he wants to get back into the Army and have a military career.

It will be hard for him to get accepted to OCS as he would have been previously disenrolled from an officer producing program.

To get specific answers about your sons predicament, you should speak to the ROTC program's Recruiting Operations Officer.

They are declining to extend him and disenrolling him for this exact reason.

If he decides active duty to repay his dept, does that mean after 4 years he is prevented from re-enlisting should he choose and then separated? I think that is where a lot of his confusion is, and his ROO wasn't all that informed. They said they weren't sure and had to 'look some things up'.
 

Jcleppe

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If he decides active duty to repay his dept, does that mean after 4 years he is prevented from re-enlisting should he choose and then separated?

No, it means that if he is disenrolled and ordered to pay back the scholarship instead of enlistment, he will need to get a waiver to enlist in the future. If your son does enlist to pay back his obligation he would be able to re-enlist when his first obligation is complete.
 

sheriff3

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If your son was a 4 yr scholarship winner then his disenrollment will have to be approved by cadet command so their will be some oversight of the process.
 

MohawkArmyROTC

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No, it means that if he is disenrolled and ordered to pay back the scholarship instead of enlistment, he will need to get a waiver to enlist in the future. If your son does enlist to pay back his obligation he would be able to re-enlist when his first obligation is complete.

That is correct, along as he was a good Soldier and remained unflagged at the end of his initial term.
 

ComputerDad

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I wanted to give an update in case someone else is going through this in the future. He had a really good meeting with his command and they gave him some really solid information. The biggest issue is his request for extension... because of downsizing the class behind him has very limited contract spots. If they give him an extension they would have to basically boot someone else out to make room. His grades aren't bad enough for automatic disenrollment but he has had enough issues that they aren't willing to take the risk. Beyond his grade struggles (as a physics major FYI) he has been a fantastic cadet and they really like him. His command is highly recommending he enlist as they see him as a positive asset for the Army. They did have some sympathy that his previous commander led him down a bad path on the education extension, but as we all know the Army, like life, isn't fair. Ultimately he takes complete responsibility for it though, as his grades are his fault alone.

His commander even hinted that he should request to be present at the hearing, and that he could even likely get them to drop the 'flag' that would normally be on his record in choosing enlistment. They are also going to work with a recruiter and let him pick an MOS instead of simply sending him in to the needs of the Army. They are also going to let him finish college and he won't be required to report until next summer. He always maintained that he wanted to serve in whatever capacity he could. After the initial shock of the setback he found that he still feels that way, and has decided to take the enlistment. He will be an E4 and only required to serve 3 years (though I expect he will serve more). He will not receive the GI bill, but he will already have college done so that is a wash in his mind.
 

Jcleppe

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Glad to hear your son is getting some support from his Cadre for enlistment.

One thing for your son to remember is that the restriction on the GI Bill is only for the initial service obligation required to pay back the scholarship hes received to date. If your son decides to stay in the Army after the initial obligation he will begin to accrue time toward the GI Bill, after 3 years of service beyond the initial obligation he would be eligible again for the GI Bill, he could then use it for a graduate degree or save it for later or a dependent when the time comes.

Best of luck to your son.
 

MohawkArmyROTC

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I wanted to give an update in case someone else is going through this in the future. He had a really good meeting with his command and they gave him some really solid information. The biggest issue is his request for extension... because of downsizing the class behind him has very limited contract spots. If they give him an extension they would have to basically boot someone else out to make room. His grades aren't bad enough for automatic disenrollment but he has had enough issues that they aren't willing to take the risk. Beyond his grade struggles (as a physics major FYI) he has been a fantastic cadet and they really like him. His command is highly recommending he enlist as they see him as a positive asset for the Army. They did have some sympathy that his previous commander led him down a bad path on the education extension, but as we all know the Army, like life, isn't fair. Ultimately he takes complete responsibility for it though, as his grades are his fault alone.

His commander even hinted that he should request to be present at the hearing, and that he could even likely get them to drop the 'flag' that would normally be on his record in choosing enlistment. They are also going to work with a recruiter and let him pick an MOS instead of simply sending him in to the needs of the Army. They are also going to let him finish college and he won't be required to report until next summer. He always maintained that he wanted to serve in whatever capacity he could. After the initial shock of the setback he found that he still feels that way, and has decided to take the enlistment. He will be an E4 and only required to serve 3 years (though I expect he will serve more). He will not receive the GI bill, but he will already have college done so that is a wash in his mind.

When is your son graduating college? There is currently not a contract cap for Mission Sets 18 and 19. In fact Cadet Command is in danger of not making mission for those year groups and trying to expand them. Especially, since the Army end strength has been recently increased as we have downsized too much (The active duty has to increase by 28,000). So if your son is scheduled to graduate between OCT 2017 and SEP 2018, he is not affecting anybody in that mission set and is actually helping Cadet Command's numbers.
 
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