Diversity Inclusion

[USAFA10s]

Ah - this can of worms...a favorite recurring topic

The Academy DOES try to recruit diversity candidates, but diversity from the perspective of groups that don't typically apply to an academy. They want diversity of thought and an officer population that reflects the country's demographics, but as @OldRetSWO pointed out, that pool may not yet be big enough because of institutional barriers and norms in the early years that keep those kids from getting interested in STEM (a driver for a low pool of women for sure), or from even having the opportunity to do well in school and build the kind of profile that USAFA is interested in. That's a bigger problem and one certainly not unique to USAFA.

USAFA has (or at least had...my info is about 10 years dated) programs like grassroots - which sends cadets from areas that don't get a lot of applications home early for thanksgiving to give recruiting talks in their home towns. They also use their summer camps and summer seminar as a tool and have a diversity recruiting office dedicated to trying to reach the populations that wouldn't normally hear about the Academy. That is how they try to bring the demographics of USAFA in line with the rest of the country. All that being said, being a minority is unlikely to get you in with a low score, that's why USAFA demographics still don't reflect the country's, USAFA isn't filling quotas.

I would believe that all things being equal (and I mean identical) a diverse candidate might have a better chance, but there are SO many factors that that statement doesn't even make sense (no two candidates will ever really be equal).

If it's a topic of real interest, here is RAND study from 2010. I think it would be really interesting to see an updated version of this, but I haven't been able to find one.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2010/RAND_MG917.pdf

 

[lipton_hot_tea]

Dipping ONLY my toe in...

IMO, by the time a student is applying to a SA, the chance to enhance diversity is over. IOW, there needs to be outreach via the formative school years. To ensure that schools/communities/etc are creating opportunities for kids to get the same exposure to STEM, test prep support, opportunities for youth sports, etc. So that there IS a qualified, diverse pool for the SA’s to choose from. I find USNA to be a pretty diverse place. And then my opinion is the same as @WT Door once it comes time for selecting appointments.

I think Civil Air Patrol is doing this with the encampment and national activity scholarships. It is not a math tutor but it exposes them to opportunities as an officer.

 

[Alex603]

By the way, to answer your somewhat insulting assertion, in just about 20 years of doing Senatorial/Congressional nomination interviews (many hundreds of candidates), I have NEVER personally seen someone with under a 600 Math score get a nomination and that does not matter their race. Although I know of some who have gotten in, they almost invariably have done so through the Prep programs or other nom sources such as athletics. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because I know that it does but again none that I've seen.

Just wanted to put my own experience out there: I scored horribly on the math section (530), did badly on the ACT math as well, and was award nominations to USAFA, USNA, and USMA from various sources. I am not a recruited athlete and I am a first time applicant. It is possible, difficult nonetheless, but there needs to be an incredibly well rounded resume to compensate. I actually reached out the my MOC office and asked why I was chosen even with a rather low academic standing and that was their response.

 

[Paine1776]

There is a more immediate challenge. You cannot compete for an appointment without a nomination and nominations discriminate against women. Yale University had to use FOIA lawsuits to force MOCs to reveal stats on their nominations and it was telling. (Look at the data and you'll be shocked to see some of the 'progressive darlings' in politics are at the bottom of the Sen list for % of female nominations.) There is no consistency from one District or State regarding the process for MOCs to nominate (the process is only advised, suggested, mapped-out by SAs: not dictated). Therefore, as gatekeepers to the SA admissions process, they (and/or their committees) determine who has a shot based on the slates they create. It appears they need to solve this element of the admissions process prior to addressing the need to assure that by 2050 the armed forces leadership is 40% Hispanic. The Yale study is interesting and compelling if you have the time to read it (29 pages.) https://law.yale.edu/yls-today/news...ar-fewer-women-men-military-service-academies

 

[lipton_hot_tea]

I wish all schools would spend more time with math in junior high. It is great to show kids these cool things but if Johnny doesn't know fractions in junior high he will struggle in algebra. He will then end up taking the minimum amount of math to graduate or just dislike math and not go for a STEM major.
IMO cutting something else out and spending an extra 30 min with fractions or even for some math facts in 6th grade would do most students more good long term towards a science career.

 

[SF_DAD]

The Yale study briefly touches on the larger issue concerning women at the SA’s and entering military service in general which is that there are not as many volunteers as there are male volunteers. I hate to say it, but many of America’s moms and dads do not want their daughters in uniform (I am not one of them). Why don’t females have to sign up for selective service when they turn 18?
It’s an issue, but I think it’s societal, not particularly resting on MOC’s shoulders.
I know that in our Congressional District the numbers nominated are a direct reflection of the percentages that applied for appointment.

 

[justdoit19]

I wish all schools would spend more time with math in junior high. It is great to show kids these cool things but if Johnny doesn't know fractions in junior high he will struggle in algebra. He will then end up taking the minimum amount of math to graduate or just dislike math and not go for a STEM major.
IMO cutting something else out and spending an extra 30 min with fractions or even for some math facts in 6th grade would do most students more good long term towards a science career.

I also think this can be done in the home, too. I’m all for schools...but also recognize that it’s a partnership. Learning can also happen outside of schools imo. And critical thinking can be fostered in lots of ways, outside the home.

 

[Wishful]

From a very veteran teacher in one of the "elite" specialized high schools in NYC:

In the city, teachers expect to do everything with no help expected from parents
In the suburbs, teachers expect parents to do more, a lot more.
This teacher had children that were educated in the suburbs.

DW & I always bristled at the amount of "work" the teachers would assign us on parent/teacher nites.
In fact, we stopped going to them when the kids got to HS...just couldn't take it anymore. Never met a single HS teacher of DD; & only met 1st semester of DS's.

 

[USAFA10s]

The Yale study briefly touches on the larger issue concerning women at the SA’s and entering military service in general which is that there are not as many volunteers as there are male volunteers. I hate to say it, but many of America’s moms and dads do not want their daughters in uniform (I am not one of them). Why don’t females have to sign up for selective service when they turn 18?
It’s an issue, but I think it’s societal, not particularly resting on MOC’s shoulders.
I know that in our Congressional District the numbers nominated are a direct reflection of the percentages that applied for appointment.

And this is somewhat I was alluding to - the pool of applicants has to reflect the demographics of the country before it can be expected that USAFA's demographics match - to include Women. I don't think that Yale study is showing much other than the much smaller pool of women applying and possibly in the case of some of the "bottom" - the gender bias in the interview process that makes it harder for women to promote and gain recognition in generally male dominated careers (military and STEM mainly). That problem is certainly not unique to MOC committees. It's everywhere. The good news is that it is getting better because people like @Capt MJ have been out smashing glass ceilings for decades. You can see the trend in that Yale report on page 6. The percent of women nominated has been close to monotonically increasing since about 2007 (2011 was the only exception) from about 17% to 27%. That is a solid trend. I wonder if there are similar reports for race. I'm hoping that we are making progress everywhere, not just with gender disparities, but I haven't seen the data to support that just yet - the RAND study I found is too old to capture the time period that is of most interest (the last decade). Sounds like a good research project for a cadet

 

[Devil Doc]

@lipton_hot_tea @justdoit19 excellent points on math. Kids in Singapore have the highest math scores in the world. Do they have better books? Better teachers? A better Internet? No, they spend more time learning math. More time at school, at home, and with tutors. That’s the value they place on math.

 

[Paine1776]

@lipton_hot_tea @justdoit19 excellent points on math. Kids in Singapore have the highest math scores in the world. Do they have better books? Better teachers? A better Internet? No, they spend more time learning math. More time at school, at home, and with tutors. That’s the value they place on math.

That's the value they place on education! (They also have the highest rate of myopia in the world - due to their slavish attention to books and digital screens 18 inches in front of their faces; two-thirds of the kids by 3rd grade in Singapore are already wearing glasses.)

 

[Devil Doc]

That's the value they place on education! (They also have the highest rate of myopia in the world - due to their slavish attention to books and digital screens 18 inches in front of their faces; two-thirds of the kids by 3rd grade in Singapore are already wearing glasses.)

I thought the mom's admonishment to "not watch TV too close to the screen or you'll go blind" thing, was no longer, a thing. Poor eyesight is hereditary.

"It turns out that even common eye conditions such as myopia - and its opposite, hyperopia - are also often caused by inherited genetic markers. In fact, Asian Scientist reports that people with a genetic predisposition towards refractive errors such as myopia and hyperopia are up to ten times more likely to develop those conditions."

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[OldRetSWO]

From a very veteran teacher in one of the "elite" specialized high schools in NYC:

In the city, teachers expect to do everything with no help expected from parents
In the suburbs, teachers expect parents to do more, a lot more.
This teacher had children that were educated in the suburbs.

DW & I always bristled at the amount of "work" the teachers would assign us on parent/teacher nites.
In fact, we stopped going to them when the kids got to HS...just couldn't take it anymore. Never met a single HS teacher of DD; & only met 1st semester of DS's.

Not to change the subject here but as a parent, one of the happiest parts of the kids growing up was no longer having to go to "Meet the Teachers" night after doing it for 20 years straight across the school arc of 4 kids.

 

[Capt MJ]

And this is somewhat I was alluding to - the pool of applicants has to reflect the demographics of the country before it can be expected that USAFA's demographics match - to include Women. I don't think that Yale study is showing much other than the much smaller pool of women applying and possibly in the case of some of the "bottom" - the gender bias in the interview process that makes it harder for women to promote and gain recognition in generally male dominated careers (military and STEM mainly). That problem is certainly not unique to MOC committees. It's everywhere. The good news is that it is getting better because people like @Capt MJ have been out smashing glass ceilings for decades. You can see the trend in that Yale report on page 6. The percent of women nominated has been close to monotonically increasing since about 2007 (2011 was the only exception) from about 17% to 27%. That is a solid trend. I wonder if there are similar reports for race. I'm hoping that we are making progress everywhere, not just with gender disparities, but I haven't seen the data to support that just yet - the RAND study I found is too old to capture the time period that is of most interest (the last decade). Sounds like a good research project for a cadet

I try to tell myself incipient wrinkles are a side effect of exploding glass shards. At least you didn’t say I’d been out there for centuries. I only bridged two.

I looked into applying for the first USNA class with women when I was halfway through college. One of the Senator’s staff ladies said “Honey, you want to marry one o’ them boys, not be one.” That initial wall of resistance was very steep. OCS it was for me. NROTC units were not a full developed path either.

And dang it, I had some “stats” too.

 

[justdoit19]

Not to change the subject here but as a parent, one of the happiest parts of the kids growing up was no longer having to go to "Meet the Teachers" night after doing it for 20 years straight across the school arc of 4 kids.

YESSSSSSSSSS we celebrated. As am Exchange Student host family, in our porgram we are to go to conferences for our students. Pretty sure we hold the record with 5 students in the same high school. We actually would have to take time off from work, to get them all in (they are all scheduled online in 5-minute increments, so have to allow passing time...plus fighting for the sequential spots with all the other families trying to schedule at the same time).

BEST PART ABOUT GRADUATION!!

 

[A6E Dad]

You cannot compete for an appointment without a nomination and nominations discriminate against women.

Respectfully, I think this is a very misleading statement. I read through the Yale study, and nowhere was the success rate of female applicants mentioned, only the result. If female candidates are only a small percentage of the applicant pool for a nomination, and if MOCs are committed to choosing the best candidates from the pool, then it follows that females would be successful at approximately the same percentage as males. This assumes that male and female candidates are just as likely to have the attributes that the MOC is looking for. There are many factors that influence why females are a lower percentage of applicants, and I don't think discrimination is near the top of the list.

IF there were data to suggest that the percentage of male applicants who received nominations was significantly higher than female applicants, THEN there could be cause to suggest discrimination in the process against females. However there wasn't any such data in the study, and if there were I'm sure it would have been highlighted.

In fact, it's quite possible that the success rate for female applicants is actually HIGHER for females that males, yet the resulting nominations still heavily favor males. In a hypothetical case: females were ONLY 30% of the nominations HOWEVER females were only 25% of the applicants - this would be evidence of discrimination in FAVOR OF females.

The only sensible way to increase the number of candidates from underrepresented groups is through Outreach and Recruiting. I think the SAs have been doing a pretty good job of that, but there is always room to do even better.

What I don't agree with is the Yale study demand that MOCs get actively involved in recruiting candidates for the SAs.

 

[Devil Doc]

Not to change the subject here but as a parent, one of the happiest parts of the kids growing up was no longer having to go to "Meet the Teachers" night after doing it for 20 years straight across the school arc of 4 kids.

ahhh, Back to School Night. BTSN. A huge waste of three hours. The parents who should be there don't come. The parents of the high flyers show up which is bad news for teachers. They talk too much either about how great LD (little darling) is or list all their demands and expectations of me. We do it virtually now. Hopefully it stays that way in the New World.

 

[A1Janitor]

ahhh, Back to School Night. BTSN. A huge waste of three hours. The parents who should be there don't come. The parents of the high flyers show up which is bad news for teachers. They talk too much either about how great LD (little darling) is or list all their demands and expectations of me. We do it virtually now. Hopefully it stays that way in the New World.

LMAO

My precious son had one issue with a health teacher he didn’t get along with - the only one in school. He got a 90 on a quiz because he got a math problem wrong. He brought it to me ... I was flabbergasted. If you read the thing properly, my son was right.

She explained to me that her health class was AP - and so he isn’t going to get perfect grades because AP are college level courses and much tougher. I gently reminded her that he has nearly a 100 average in all AP math and science classes.

I went and paid attention with my first kid. She was a treasure. With him ... he and I went and had fun. There was no reason for us to be there.

Sadly many kids and parents who should have gone didn’t.

 

[StPaulDad]

We've got a mixed bag of kids, so for a couple we are the parents that should be there and for the others I used to go just to say Hi to folks I knew. But even that's drying up so we don't always make it to BTSN, and only some Parent Teacher conferences. At this point we just going for specific things, like stopping by conferences spring of senior year to let special teachers know how much my kid enjoyed working with them. Or when my current high school DD was a junior and getting ready to apply for her chosen SA I went in to talk to the JROTC guys to see what we needed to know, but she'd already made the rounds of them and the teachers she was going to be hitting up for evals. Our kids all end up at the same school, the place where I went and several staff went to school with our family, so everyone knows everyone and there's not a ton of shocking news being delivered. Get some cookies, wave at familiar faces and get out.

 

[cb7893]

I wish all schools would spend more time with math in junior high. It is great to show kids these cool things but if Johnny doesn't know fractions in junior high he will struggle in algebra. He will then end up taking the minimum amount of math to graduate or just dislike math and not go for a STEM major.
IMO cutting something else out and spending an extra 30 min with fractions or even for some math facts in 6th grade would do most students more good long term towards a science career.

@lipton_hot_tea @justdoit19 excellent points on math. Kids in Singapore have the highest math scores in the world. Do they have better books? Better teachers? A better Internet? No, they spend more time learning math. More time at school, at home, and with tutors. That’s the value they place on math.

Consider me triggered.

This is a systemic problem that has bugged me for years: from parents with their 3 year olds, to the way math is taught in schools, to the stigmatizing (in many circles) of a two year community college education.

The whole process of learning Math or Reading needs to start before the kid has any idea what's going on. I started my boys with stacks of wooden blocks and Mom's pots and pans. At 3-4 we started board games, beginning with Candyland and got them used to seeing numbers (they're everywhere) and associating them with everything from their fingers and toes to the number of nubs on a lego block.

Next is the game of Sorry. (I've given away more Sorry games than I can count). This gives a spatial sense of numbers as well as a rudimentary sense of addition and subtraction. Play it long enough (which we did) and before you know it they aren't even counting the spaces. They see "5" and they move the token to the fifth square.

By 5 they should be playing card games. I devised a score keeping system for crazy 8's. Add up the card values in the loser's hand. They were completely on their own how they did it. Fingers, toes, marks on the scoresheet it didn't matter. They'd write down the score and keep adding to it until 500. The game would go on for days.

If the kid only knows 3 and 5 as figures on a sign or page, then 3/5 are just more figures on a page. My kids looked at "5" as five things: squares on a Sorry gameboard, two pennies and three nickels in his pocket or 5 hearts on a playing card. DS #1 is in an intensive Russian Language course. On his own, he bought a bunch of Russian elementary school workbooks. The first thing he noticed was the Math workbook was mostly word problems using pictures of everyday things like coins and analogue clocks, much different than the page after page of 8+9, 13-7, etc. that he got in school.

We seem to have become such an affluent society, believing that everyone should have a 4 yr university education when that's not what the economy is demanding. I'm as guilty as anyone of thinking my sons are "too smart" for CC. I remember his HS woodshop teacher approached me and told me the my son should really look into the program at a CC in Kansas. They can't produce enough graduates to meet demand for entry level management positions for wood fabricators. The same applies to any number of trades, high level skills and knowledge based jobs.

The Politics of the day trumpeted by the previous administration and showing no signs of changing under the current one, completely ignore the skills deficit of US young adults compared to other advanced economies. It was my hope that the new 1st Lady would become the Eleanor Roosevelt of CC education. After all that was the subject of her PhD thesis.