Drug use, to put or not put.

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Anguswarrior112, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. justdoit19

    justdoit19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Op keeps referring to his ‘other friends who are great leaders that lied on their forms.’

    Who is evaluating them as great leaders? BC perhaps they actually aren’t. BC they lie and dismiss integrity. At least in some situations. And if your people figure out you have/do lie, how can they trust. And if trust is gone, how are you a great leader? Additionally, the time at a SA/ROTC is when you are learning/practicing your leadership. I’m not sure I would call anyone an amazing leader until they are practiced and tested out in the real world. Verses the world of an SA or ROTC program.

    Perhaps you mean they are great people. I can buy that as I don’t think a mistake or wrong choice in high school make you a bad person. But referring g to them as great leaders and lying doesn’t sit right with me.

    In fact, when a recruiter (or in the future, a boss or chain of command) instructs you you to lie, just what DOES a good leader, who knows it’s wrong, do?? Leaving that as a rhetorical question.

    Isn’t there a class on ethics?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
    Devil Doc and NavyHoops like this.
  2. NavyHoops

    NavyHoops Super Moderator 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2011
    Messages:
    5,800
    Likes Received:
    6,127
    You are free to your opinions, but please don’t put words in my mouth. In my opinion, although the OP started by stating they don’t advocate for lying, throughout the thread they have advocated for the lying by their over and over justification for it. That might not be their intent, but that is how it comes off. Their continual justification of lying, even under oath and the UCMJ, makes me concerned. Smoking pot a few times is not my worry, it’s the justification of it all. I don’t know the OP, except what they have posted on here over the years. I don’t wish harm, evil or bad to anyone. If the OP joins the organization I dearly love, the Marine Corps, I hope they really do some soul searching. I do wish the OP would really think about this whole thing and recognize the slippery slope of lies they have repeatedly stated are okay. Realize that as an officer one day they will be continually challenged and integrity will be put on the line. There isn’t a magic button when you become an officer that you all of a sudden have integrity, your years of actions will be the foundation one pulls from to make a split second call. There are massive consequences to all this as posters have continually pointed out. I have also stated repeatedly that I hope candidates reading this and entering the process or will soon, will evaluate how they answer this question. The answer they put there honestly can have lasting impacts for decades of their lives.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
    ProudDad17, THParent, Jcleppe and 4 others like this.
  3. MidCakePa

    MidCakePa Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2018
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    I'm about to let @NavyHoops have the last word -- for me, at least -- because she says very eloquently what I believe.

    But before doing so, I say this: Read this forum deeply and you'll learn that there are many candidates who tried drugs in high school, reported it honestly on their applications, were appointed to an SA or granted an ROTC scholarship, and are now honorably serving as midshipmen or cadets, or on active duty. I am thankful for them, their courage, their integrity.
     
  4. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    65
    If I had taken meds before a flight or knew someone that did than I would not sign them off or fly myself, no question there. I know a great bunch about the Marine Corps, lived on a Marine base before, been through PLC once, and one of my late family members was a Marine (Once a Marine, always a Marine). My views on this issue don't define my character or integrity. If I didn't value integrity then I wouldn't be pursuing a commission into the Marine Corps and I wouldn't have graduated the first part of PLC ranking top five in my platoon. So please, don't make assumptions.

    My "friends" are great leaders because they are the types of leaders that show up to work early, they consistently check on the ones they lead, they lead from the front, they help those that may not return any benefit them at all. Thats what makes them great, what they checked on the form many years ago does not define them today. Not sure what your view on a great leader is but thats mine.

    I don't want to create arguments or anything else. I don't support lying nor do I condone the actions of my friends who have in the past.

    And my advice to others who are looking to go on this path is, be honest and make the right decisions. So that way when you get to the check box you don't need to question your integrity because you made the right choices.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  5. Calisurfboy1997

    Calisurfboy1997 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    6
    Le
    Agreed, those people are the ones I admire. That being said lets not argue amongst ourselves of the right and wrong. Im sure OPs intentions and everyone else that commented on here don't have bad intentions but maybe thats what It looks like to us. At the end of the day, Im sure we all love our country and will do anything to protect it.
     
  6. Soldiergriz

    Soldiergriz Husband, Dad, Soldier

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    339
    This thread is among the worst I have seen on this forum despite many, many sage posts from long-time posters.

    Since many will search for this topic in the future...this is not even remotely the hardest part of the application process. It is really quite simple.

    Answer yes to questions about drug use if you have done drugs. It is not the last time you will be asked this question during your time in the military.

    You own your integrity...don't let a question on a form dilute it.

    Many check yes...many get appointments and scholarships. If you are among the best applicants...you will too.
     
    Jcleppe and MidCakePa like this.
  7. justdoit19

    justdoit19 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    “My views on this issue don't define my character or integrity. If I didn't value integrity then I wouldn't be pursuing a commission into the Marine Corps and I wouldn't have graduated the first part of PLC ranking top five in my platoon. So please, don't make assumptions”

    I very much beg to differ, and perhaps this is the reason for the debate. Your views on this issue do, indeed, define, at least in part, you character. You believe it’s ok to lie on an application. You have stated that. Not making assumptions.

    My point in posting is to readers: don’t lie. What’s the oath that you will swear to? It’s different for each service, but a commonality is lying, honor, integrity. It’s important enough to be an oath. In all branches. It matters.

    If you disagree with it, to me, the answer is to advocate for change. Not compromise a value.
     
    VMI2017+3 and MidCakePa like this.
  8. Calisurfboy1997

    Calisurfboy1997 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    6
    Lets not continue to argue over what the OPs character is. At the end of the day, integrity Is the right direction we should all take especially as an officer.
     
  9. Impulsive

    Impulsive Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    143
    I will preface this by saying this is only my personal opinion. Every SA has it's "Honor Code", as do most ROTC programs, and the Armed Services. By lying on your application IMHO you have already violated that "Code". What kind of a leader does that make you? If you lie on your application and then lie again for some clearance or position there may be a point they have to put your on "the box" to be able to give you the job or position. Unless you are really good, there will be a discrepancy, your credibility is gone and you never get your dream job. One question @Anguswarrior112, if you and your "friends" lied once on the form and got away with it, how apt would one be to just lie again if the situation requires it? And they will have to lie again and again, every time a BI or Security Clearance questionnaire is done the same question is asked. So it is not just one lie, it is a continuing series of lies. And just remember, you may get into an SA or the military, but when you need that "special clearance" that requires a FULL BI, and that guy with the Investigator with the gold badge goes to old high school classmates or neighbors and questions them about your friends, do you really think everyone is going to remember the lie, or be willing to lie for them?

    As a leader in the military, or anywhere for that matter, you are only as good as your word, and if you lie your word is not worth squat! This issue is one of integrity and honesty, JMHO! A new West Point Grad recently told me that there are two roads, the easy road and the right road, and they are not always the same but the true leader will take the right road and by pass the easy road because it just isn't the proper thing to do. I hope that my sons' take the "right" road over the "easy" road every time, no matter the circumstance, civilian or military.

    A final thought.....you may get away with the lie, maybe forever, but you will never know if it will come back to grab you. You will be looking over your shoulder for your entire career or life for that matter, waiting for that shoe to drop.
     
    MidCakePa and NavyHoops like this.
  10. Calisurfboy1997

    Calisurfboy1997 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    6
    OP, If your reading this, I advise you to cool down on this thread a little bit and keep this opinion to yourself especially if you are going to the military. Chances are is that if you reply your just going to continue beating a dead horse and just get more negative feedback angry posters. THe military is not perfect and there are rules or protocols that many of us disagree on but at the end of the day, they are there and not much we can do about them and obey them to the best of our integrity.
     
    FutureSoldier96 and MidCakePa like this.
  11. k2rider

    k2rider 5-Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    472
    Well, I've been on this board for about 11 years now (originally joined in 2008 under a different moniker) and the advice given by the OP is the worst I've seen in all my time here and his/her repeated attempts to justify lying is almost laughable. I'm not going to bother repeating all the excellent responses already given by others but I can tell you as a retired law enforcement officer who has seen this logic used many times before, one lie leads to justifying another and another down the line. Once you're caught lying, your credibility from that point forward is shot.
     
    Pima, Capt MJ and MidCakePa like this.
  12. Calisurfboy1997

    Calisurfboy1997 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    6
    I also don’t think it’s necessary to keep criticizing the OP for his opinion, that is his opinion. It appears that the OP is still young and is still learning, I’m sure his opinion will change in the future.
     
  13. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    65
    Will do, I apologize if I offended anybody and please, I don’t condone lying. This was all opinion and I’ll keep that to myself in the future.
     
  14. THParent

    THParent Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2017
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    3,610
    Personally, I thought it was a great thread. It struck a chord with me, and I just felt obligated to take the opposing view point for a number of reasons that reach down into the core of my being.
    Everyone has opinions. You shouldn't keep them to yourself. I didn't serve so that your opinion could be stifled, and you should have the stones to stand up to people who don't share your opinion.
    Opinions can change however. Debate is all about that. I often change my opinion, when presented with a properly informed and rational debate.
     
  15. ProudDad17

    ProudDad17 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    312
    Not much to add that hasn't already been said, but I do want to add that it is easy to have integrity when the stakes are low, it's how you act when the stakes are high that really defines your integrity. Also, the checkbox isn't there to measure your integrity; it's there to help evaluate your fitness to serve. Perhaps instead of talking about whether an applicant should lie about their drug use (they shouldn't), we should be talking about instituting fair, consistent standards of what will be allowed and what will not. Some drugs should be an automatic disqualifier, ever with one use. Other use should have a consistent standard for frequency of use and how recent the use was.
     
  16. Anguswarrior112

    Anguswarrior112 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    65
    Agree, at the end of the day integrity is about doing what is right even when no one is looking. That being said, I agree with you perhaps there could be another indicator of what determines disqualification from drug use, whether or not that is implementable is questionable, but my advice to others and I agree with others on here is that the more you lie, the more you have to look back on your shoulders and worry what may bite you back.
     
    Devil Doc likes this.