DS Intending to Enlist Instead

rothnroll said:
One thing that NCO's do not appreciate is a lower enlisted person with a 151 IQ telling them their processes are all out of whack and how they can streamline things.
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LMAO on this comment because it reminded me of a flier that got a call sign Tuna. The guy was straight out of the F15E school house, i.e. no operational flight hours, however, in his infinite wisdom he decided to argue against the 4 ship flight lead IP in a debrief. That guy had 2000 flight hours and was the initial cadre selected for the F15E. Tuna stood for 2 K hours to None! That call sign followed him around his entire AF career.

Again, this is a family choice, and you know your child, but part of career success also is tied to being able to perform in the adult world. There is no exact age you can say that they are mature enough to play in that world. There are some that GET IT at 17 and some that NEVER get it regardless of their age.
~ These boards are littered with advice for incoming ROTC cadets. I would say 99.99% of the time the 1st thing any cadet in ROTC say is Don't Be That Guy/Gal...you know the one that believes they know it all and can teach them a thing or two.

Will your DS be That Guy? Will your DS complain weekly to you how their NCO frustrates him because they do it this or that way when if they did it the way he sees it than it would be soooo much easier? Is he ready to understand to get that sweet deal TDY he has to play the game? Does he understand that as much as there is favoritism in HS, it doesn't end in the military?

I think the longer this thread goes the more we get into the nitty gritty which will help him see a larger picture. No offense to the recruiter or any recruiter, but their job, and EPR is tied to making their recruitment goal. IOWS they have a bone in this fight, whereas, nobody here does. We are just giving honest opinions and it is up to you take the opinions and do what you want to do with them, such as, throwing them in the garbage can.

I don't envy you at all. I see you stuck in between a rock and a hard place. I don't believe if you were 100% on board with his decision you would be asking these questions. I also believe you want to support your son 100% with his decision. As I keep saying, only you know your DS. Only you know how he will feel if you refuse to sign that paperwork since he is under 18. Can you accept his anger/resentment if you don't sign it and force him to go to at least a community college for a year? Will it tear your family apart?
 
makinna said:
Mnoopk said:
My DS has been waiting for the AROTC scholarship 2nd board results. But he is now intending to enlist in the Army instead when he graduates from high school in June. He hopes for MOS 35P (linguist) or second choice 35G (geospatial analyst). He'll be taking the ASVAB and DLAB ASAP (Feb, March) and ship not long after graduation. At least that's the plan that is taking shape right now. We're about to set the ASVAB/MEPS date with the recruiter. The DLAB comes later.

He just doesn't want to go to college right now. Profile: he turns seventeen in a few days. He's sharp as a tack and has a resume of significan work experience (farm labor, construction labor, restaurant work). But he's not very interested in school right now. He aced the SAT and will do very well on the ASVAB and DLAB. Of course, DLI is a year of school and it's a 50-hour week of studying, but he's okay with that. It's only a year, not a four-year slog. Plus he likes languages. He's had four years of high school Chinese and has taught himself a smattering of Dutch and how to pronounce Korean writing.

Maybe when he's twenty or so he'll start going to college part time while he's still serving. He has been accepted by George Mason for the fall. Maybe someday in the future if he is stationed at Ft. Meade he can commute to Mason part time.

In short, DS is about to turn down the AROTC scholarship, if lucky enough to be offered it, and enlist instead. I wonder how many people in our country's history have done that. It's a little odd, but I'm happy with it. Is there anything I should be aware of? There is a sense of "What the heck is my DS doing? Just accept the scholarship, son, and be resolved to study whether you like it or not!" Actually, I'm looking forward to watching move forward with the enlistment adventure he's about to embark on. But should he reconsider? There is a lot of wisdom in this forum for which I'm grateful, so I thought I'd post.
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I’m applying to the Air Force Academy, but enlisted with the Navy as a backup this past Friday. He can enlist in the DEP while he waits for the AROTC results, and still choose between the two. If he gets an AROTC scholarship and chooses to do that, his recruiter is required to void his contract as that is an officer pipeline that ‘trumps’ his enlisted contract. However, linguist is definitely an awesome job. My contract with the Navy is CTI (cryptologic technician - interpretive), the Navy equivalent of 35P. With the Navy, you can apply for a program called STA-21 during your enlisted career. This program allows you to attend any university for three years (fall, spring, and summer semester) fully paid for, while receiving active duty pay. Following completion, you’re commissioned as an officer. The Army doesn’t have any programs that are directly similar to this, but they do offer many programs that are conducive to achieving your degree and commissioning if you’re okay with taking a little bit longer. I certainly do not think the pay scale should be the deciding factor - enjoying your career and being happy with your day-to-day is more valuable than that. Also, the signing bonuses and re-enlistment bonuses for 35P are pretty hefty.
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Just curious, why are you apply to the Air Force academy but enlisting in the Navy? Why not the Naval Academy or enlisting in the AF
 
Humey said:
Just curious, why are you apply to the Air Force academy but enlisting in the Navy? Why not the Naval Academy or enlisting in the AF
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Solid question.. I started the academy process pretty late and only applied to AF academy, but after doing some more research (too late to apply to another Academy) I thought the navy might be a better fit. If I get in to the academy I may look into doing an inter-academy exchange, or cross commissioning.
 
makinna said:
Humey said:
Just curious, why are you apply to the Air Force academy but enlisting in the Navy? Why not the Naval Academy or enlisting in the AF
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Solid question.. I started the academy process pretty late and only applied to AF academy, but after doing some more research (too late to apply to another Academy) I thought the navy might be a better fit. If I get in to the academy I may look into doing an inter-academy exchange, or cross commissioning.
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Makes sense. I thought you were going to say something like as an officer in the AF you would want to be a pilot but if you were enlisted you would want to be on ship
 
makinna said:
If I get in to the academy I may look into doing an inter-academy exchange, or cross commissioning.
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Not trying to take this off track, but you really need to understand that going cross-commissioning is insanely rare, maybe a handful out of an 800 class size. .
~ The AF has to agree to release you and the Navy has to agree to take you.
~~If your AFSC is a critical manning field than I doubt the AF will let you go. They have a financial investment when it comes to you.
~~ Conversely, if they are willing to release you, the Navy has to say they have a job open for you. Why should they take you over a USNA grad or NROTC grad? Or OCS?

IOWS this is why it is only a handful.
 
Pima said:
Not trying to take this off track, but you really need to understand that going cross-commissioning is insanely rare, maybe a handful out of an 800 class size. .
~ The AF has to agree to release you and the Navy has to agree to take you.
~~If your AFSC is a critical manning field than I doubt the AF will let you go. They have a financial investment when it comes to you.
~~ Conversely, if they are willing to release you, the Navy has to say they have a job open for you. Why should they take you over a USNA grad or NROTC grad? Or OCS?

IOWS this is why it is only a handful.
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Yes, I’m aware that it’s highly unlikely. It’s also fairly possible that after spending four years at USAFA my inclination to go Navy will have decreased. However, there are a few factors that make it more possible (such as family legacy) which I have. Most likely, I won’t cross commission but it is something I’d be interested in looking in to.
 
To the OP: I had a young enlisted Marine go crazy (straight jacket crazy!) and after he was hauled away I later learned he had a genius level IQ.

Turns out following orders, lack of control, no chance to use initiative pushed him over the edge.

The fact he was on duty and armed with a locked and loaded M16 at the time is a whole other story!

The Purpose of this post is to highlight the possibility of your DS being bored out of his mind. Popular movies don’t portray the “real” life as an enlisted Marine in garrison.
 
Great tips, USMCGrunt, thanks. Wow! Terrible story!

Pima and USMCGrunt are raising the issue of smart kid with big head. I don't think my DS has a big head. I really think he is a modest kid. He follows orders for his bosses at work very respectfully.

A lot to think about here. When I read this thread with him it will take us hours to go through it.

Again, much thanks to all. I am deeply indebted to all of you.
 
I enlisted the day after I turned 17. Back then a parent had to sign with you if you were under 18. I spent my 18th birthday at MCRD San Diego. The drill instructor found out it was my birthday and said “private I have more games than Milton Bradly and Parker Brothers combined”...... He wasn’t lying......What ever you do try to avoid spending your birthday in boot camp.
 
Pima said:
makinna said:
If I get in to the academy I may look into doing an inter-academy exchange, or cross commissioning.
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Not trying to take this off track, but you really need to understand that going cross-commissioning is insanely rare, maybe a handful out of an 800 class size. .
~ The AF has to agree to release you and the Navy has to agree to take you.
~~If your AFSC is a critical manning field than I doubt the AF will let you go. They have a financial investment when it comes to you.
~~ Conversely, if they are willing to release you, the Navy has to say they have a job open for you. Why should they take you over a USNA grad or NROTC grad? Or OCS?

IOWS this is why it is only a handful.
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I'm breaking a personal rule, never argue with PIMA, that being said AF Academy grads can cross commission all day long.
You need a star in the family or someone at another academy willing to "swap."
AF to Army will always happen. AF to Navy will almost always happen.

Friend growing up always wanted to be a SEAL, this was before most people knew what SEALs were. He got appointments to Annapolis and AF and went AF.
I asked him why in the world he would go AF if he wanted to be a SEAL.
"Annapolis is way too hard, I'm going to go to Colorado Springs, enjoy an Academy experience and cross commission."
I had no idea what he was talking about at the time. But he got his Budweiser after graduating from the AF Academy.
He was wise way beyond his years.

This is not meant to be a slight on the easier course to commissioning the kids attending the AF Academy have.
Nomex on.
OS
 
Wow, this thread has taken off....I wasn't going to bother responding because you son sounds pretty level headed and driven in his goals. However, oldsalts posts on page 2 brought back images of dealing with my son. My son was the opposite of your...great grades and nothing special on the standardized tests but he's ALWAYS been a leader among his peers. Through ROTC and too this day as a 1LT in the Army his evals have always highlighted his leadership skills and it's frequently pointed out he's make decisions (the right ones) that he hasn't even been taught to address yet. I know my son and he would have gone bonkers dealing with incompetence from those above him (rather real or perceived) if he would have went the enlisted route....which he wanted to do as well for the "cool" jobs/MOS.

Anyway, when he was on the enlisted bandwagon....I literally had him talk to everybody I know from my daughter in ROTC, friends in the Naval Academy and numerous friends from those that were E-4's all the way up to O-6's and without exception, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM advised him to take the ROTC/Officer route and don't look back. My nephew, now an E-7 in the AF, was one of those that wanted nothing to do with college as he never liked HS so he enlisted at 18. He has enjoyed himself for the most part but started taking college classes as an E-4 and obtained his degree as an E-6. He's now working on his Masters degree but was turned down for OCS (does the AF call it that?). It's not always moving on to the Officer ranks.
 
Mnoopk said:
Pima and USMCGrunt are raising the issue of smart kid with big head. I don't think my DS has a big head.
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I don't think it's a question of a big head. It's a question of absolutely knowing to your bones that there is a way to get from point A to point B efficiently, and being told you have to do it inefficiently, but in the time it would take to do it correctly. While the language training will challenge him in ways, he will have zero control.

Mnoopk said:
turning homework in has been like getting teeth pulled for the last six years
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I'm not convinced his assigned tasks as an E2 or E3 will be significantly more meaningful than 12 trigonometry equations for tomorrow. As an O2 in the reserves, I assisted in putting up a lot of tents during field training. IMHO, if he insists on enlistment, I think he'd be better off in the shortest possible commitment so he can do a course correction before his mid twenties. They have automatic transmissions in the 5 tons now, maybe he should sign up for 3 years as an 88mike.
 
One final response from an old timer with a few years of active duty experience ... let’s be honest: the military isn’t the best choice for everyone. There are other ways to serve your country with honor and distinction. There are even more ways to serve mankind. These options should also be considered - especially in the OP’s situation.
 
The enlisted ranks are a great place to start off adult life. Many of us benefited significantly by first spending a few years maturing prior to going to college full-time. Quite a number of my enlisted friends went on to become officers and I don't believe any of them have ever told me that they regret having taken the enlisted route prior to eventually commissioning. My DD accepted an NROTC scholarship, is in her first year of college and loves it. Had she chosen to enlist, I would have discussed with her the realities of her decision and then I would have thanked her for choosing to serve.
 
I think this will be a good thread for your DS to read. It sounds like he wants to get away from school ASAP and get into a uniform full time as fast as possible. Nothing wrong with that and most certainly nothing wrong with the enlisted side of the house. I’ve had friends go that route both before starting college and also after being enrolled in ROTC. We need great people on both sides of the house.

My opinion is that he’s looking short term and is ready to start “big boy life” not in an academic environment. My recommendation would be to remind him that college and ROTC are an investment to his future. You might not enjoy it now, but will you enjoy the return on investment 5, 10, 20 years from now? The answer depends on the person. I looked at enlisting prior to going to college and joining ROTC, but ended up with an opportunity I didn’t deserve and determined I couldn’t pass it up. 3 years on active duty later as an officer and I don’t regret it one bit. But that’s me

Maybe a 6 year enlistment isn’t best for him. Maybe 3 years so he can get his feet wet, see what life is like on the enlisted side and determine if he wants to continue that way or look at options for his future both inside and outside of the military. It’s easy to say that you can get a degree while serving on active duty but it’s not easy in most line units. There are Soldiers doing it in my Brigade and I don’t know how they pull it off with year on year off deployment cycles and long training cycles in between.

The money shouldn’t be the most important factor in the decision, but it should be a factor. It’s easy to say money isn’t everything, but it does make certain things easier. I’m 25 and make roughly $75,000 a year, if I had enlisted I’d make about half that at most. Definitely something to look at.

Finally, I will never push 99% of people I encounter curious of the officer life towards that decision, it has to be a personal decision and commitment. And I think most of my peers don’t fully understand the magnitude of the rank they wear or positions they hold. I cannot push someone to be responsible for the lives of someone’s children unless they want to go all in. Just a personal thing with me I don’t take lightly. As a private, you get to just worry about yourself and there’s nothing wrong with that, as an officer you have to worry about everyone in your charge and if you neglect those responsibilities there’s something very wrong with that.
 
The valuable advice just keeps rolling in. Thank you, USMCGrunt, navypmw, and Bull.

navypmw said:
Many of us benefited significantly by first spending a few years maturing prior to going to college full-time. Quite a number of my enlisted friends went on to become officers and I don't believe any of them have ever told me that they regret having taken the enlisted route prior to eventually commissioning.
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I think this is right on target in my DS's case. In fact, my DS might be a rare bird for whom ROTC/college now instead of enlisting might even be a mistake.

-Bull- said:
It sounds like he wants to get away from school ASAP and get into a uniform full time as fast as possible.
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Yes, that's pretty close to target. He wants to do something now, not prepare to do something, hunched over a dorm-room and classroom desk, for four long years. That's not how I would feel about it. I love school and college. I'd love to hunch over a desk for four years. But I think for DS enlisting just might be the right choice.

A lot to consider, pros and cons. He won't be taking ASVAB/DLAB until late Feb at the earliest because he needs to study for the DLAB. So, there's time for him to think and read this thread over several times.
 
I must say again that I am deeply indebted to all of you for your wise assistance with this. I knew I'd get some good advice, but this thread is really priceless.

Will be reading it over with DS several time, very carefully, over the coming weeks.
 
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