End of the Line for USNA

All of my candidates sincerely assure me that they will reapply next year too. Yet in all my years of being a BGO only one has ever really applied a second time, and this is still after I have related my experience of applying 3 times and going to 2 years of college before my own appointment. In checking up on past candidates who did not get in, I found the number actively involved in ROTC of any sorts was pretty thin. OCS? Not on anybody's radar. So as a result, I see a turndown as the first step to seeing what kind of commitment and motivation a young person really has.
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I might disagree slightly. I think a lot of "kids" find out that they really love the schools where they end up. I had one who reapplied to USNA and was admitted and still struggled with whether to leave the current school. She did and ended up graduating from USNA -- but the decision was harder than she'd originally expected.

These are (for the most part) 17-yr-olds. Desires, goals, etc. can readily change. Doesn't always mean commitment wasn't there in the first place. Sometimes, but not always.
 
EOD/SEALmom said:
My DD's email was sent at 1:22pm yesterday. I've seen others with different times though so its not like they send mass emails, it appears to be individual emails (although it's the exact same letter), but an email is sent as the review they candidate's file.

In DD's case, I thought she'd made it through the massive cut the day before and was still in the game for at least another week. Looks like admissions is working every day. Good luck to you/yours!
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Thanks a bunch and sorry for your DD!! Still waiting anxiously and "Complete Pending Review" but ready for anything! Plans B-Z already in action, and honestly it would be a blessing and a privilege for all but if one door closes there are always more open!!
 
usna1985 said:
I might disagree slightly. I think a lot of "kids" find out that they really love the schools where they end up. I had one who reapplied to USNA and was admitted and still struggled with whether to leave the current school. She did and ended up graduating from USNA -- but the decision was harder than she'd originally expected.

These are (for the most part) 17-yr-olds. Desires, goals, etc. can readily change. Doesn't always mean commitment wasn't there in the first place. Sometimes, but not always.
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I agree, but nobody is debating that our kids will grow to love almost anywhere they end up, they are just that type of great young adults.
My statement is that these kids are competition oriented achievers. And the pinnacle of "early career" achievement in one of the services is to be accepted to, attend and graduate from the elite of the elite, the service academies.... right? I know for my son it is about the competition and the achievement.
 
usna1985 said:
I might disagree slightly. I think a lot of "kids" find out that they really love the schools where they end up. I had one who reapplied to USNA and was admitted and still struggled with whether to leave the current school. She did and ended up graduating from USNA -- but the decision was harder than she'd originally expected.

These are (for the most part) 17-yr-olds. Desires, goals, etc. can readily change. Doesn't always mean commitment wasn't there in the first place. Sometimes, but not always.
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I agree usna1985; that's the way it was with my DD. She opened up her application for a second run at USNA; enrolled in her chosen Plan B university as a Mech E major with her 4-year national NROTC scholarship. She loved her program/battalion and school so much and was adamant she didn't want to wait an extra year to commission that she closed her application. She is so very happy and just as dedicated to the end goal of service to country as she was when she first applied to the USNA for the Class of 2019.
 
5Day said:
Plan B's are now our plan A's. My DS was also part of the mass TWE mailing yesterday. He got the email and his portal was updated. RPI and a 4 year NROTC scholarship are the current plan A. That could change over the next few weeks as additional schools make their decisions.

He is still coping with the rejection, and he is questioning his desire to serve. He feels like "If the Navy doesn't want me, why should I want them." He will get over it. Being in a battalion with like minded kids and a sense of purpose will be the best thing for him. It will just take some time to get over the disappointment.

As for stats, I will only brag, and only give the the good stuff.
Class Rank 1 out of 400
GPA: 4.0/4.0 6.0/6.0. Never had a B and has taken 12 AP courses
Math SAT: 800
Eagle Scout
Track Varsity and Captain

Yes the competition is steep.
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5 Day - somebody mentioned you were from NJ...if you don't mind saying what Congressional District and what nom types did your DS receive?
 
F15DOC said:
I agree, but nobody is debating that our kids will grow to love almost anywhere they end up, they are just that type of great young adults.
My statement is that these kids are competition oriented achievers. And the pinnacle of "early career" achievement in one of the services is to be accepted to, attend and graduate from the elite of the elite, the service academies.... right? I know for my son it is about the competition and the achievement.
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I agree as well. My DS is still in mix waiting for USNA and NROTC decisions. His reply to everyone who questions his choice to go through the nomination process and pursue an Academy route to commissioning as a Naval Officer is, "I want to challenge myself at the highest level I can be challenged!" Simple as that.
 
TMB said:
5 Day - somebody mentioned you were from NJ...if you don't mind saying what Congressional District and what nom types did your DS receive?
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NJ-03 Representative NOM. Why do you ask?
 
Hey all, I know getting the TWE is tough. I went to a small, rural school in a district where most that go to the Academy are from a private school in the city. I didn't get in the first go around. You just have to buckle down, hit your Plan B like it's your Plan A+, and when reapplying leave nothing unsaid. Make them wonder why you didn't get in the first time. It's all about perseverance. I'm now doing really well at the Academy. If you get here, don't take it for granted, but also remember, it's about the end goal of service, not the means of getting there.
 
5Day said:
Plan B's are now our plan A's. My DS was also part of the mass TWE mailing yesterday. He got the email and his portal was updated. RPI and a 4 year NROTC scholarship are the current plan A. That could change over the next few weeks as additional schools make their decisions.

He is still coping with the rejection, and he is questioning his desire to serve. He feels like "If the Navy doesn't want me, why should I want them." He will get over it. Being in a battalion with like minded kids and a sense of purpose will be the best thing for him. It will just take some time to get over the disappointment.

As for stats, I will only brag, and only give the the good stuff.
Class Rank 1 out of 400
GPA: 4.0/4.0 6.0/6.0. Never had a B and has taken 12 AP courses
Math SAT: 800
Eagle Scout
Track Varsity and Captain

Yes the competition is steep.
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We were in your shoes last year and DS is now thriving at a SMC and while many things have changed his desire to serve has not. Initially there was disappointment and a questioning of fairness in the process. We have accepted that in our DS case his SAT/ACT was borderline and therefore did not deserve to make the cut. The only thing that continues to sting is being laughed at by parents of siblings attending USNA when asked if their DS/DD had plans to make military service a career. Not only were they not considering a military career - it was beyond their comprehension. I think the SA's do a very good job of meeting their criteria for appointments but I am not sure they do a good job of vetting those who truly want to make military service a career. When I am at DS's SMC it is clear that these cadets want to serve and are paying for the privilege of a military college experience and hopes of a commission. It is no less inspiring and in ways more impressive that they choose this path many paying dearly for the opportunity and not receiving the degree of respect and accolades of their contemporaries at the SA's.

I am curious if someone here has any data on the "stick" rates for SA's and SMC's.
 
For the SA's, at least AF, you can go to their website to see the size of the graduating class; then via their website or others, see how many initially received/accepted appointments, to get a feel for attrition rate or how many "stuck" to it. I would think that SMC would have something similar.
 
There is tons of USNA data out there, lots of NPS thesis on it. The bottom line is for those of us who have gone through this process and lived it know that when we interview a 17 year old and they are adamant a military career is all they will do, we know the chances of that are slim based purely on stats. And it's not just stats of serving 20, but the stats of making it to a commission, selected for active duty, selected through all the cuts that happen while in service (history tells us the military downsizes every decade or two) and selected for promotion. And those who planned to bail at 5, end up doing 30. All I want to hear from a kid is they will be open to their options and want to serve. I have talked to kids who only ask questions about the education and grad school and don't ask a single military question... That sends warning flags to me. At 17-18 things seem so clear.

Well at 30, married with 2 kids, 5 combat deployments, Purple Heart and more funerals than you count and orders to your last pick with a unit slated to deploy again... You might pack it in. That wasn't me, but I know this one to be true and dozens just like it. For me, I was always open to the possibility and never thought I would 5 and dive. After 2 extended combat deployments, another year overseas, seeing enough miserable things to make your head spin, enough funerals you wouldn't think it's possible, burying a best friend, burying an ex boyfriend, and notifying 2 families their loved one didn't make it... I was done. I was mad, angry, jaded. It was time for me to leave.

I throw these situations out there to show that making that statement at 17 is not the same at 28 and having a family, knowing the good and bad of the military, making all the cuts, and understanding what your future could or could not in the military. I am one of those that thinks the SA commitment should go back to 6 years and even increased to 7. And any SA parent who laughs about that question and their kid hasn't commissioned yet... They have no clue. Plenty of folks stick around for 20+, but I just venture to say as someone who has done this process it's not cut and dry.
 
Hlsng. You may well get to laugh - if you were to be as thoughtless as those who laughed at the idea of a military career for their USNA siblings - later on.

Many, many, who stay for a full 20+ year career surprise the heck out of themselves, having roundly declared themselves 5 and divers back at the Yard. Many who swear they are shooting for command and an admiral's stars, are gone at 6 years. As a USNA BattO, sitting around the Dant's conference room with 6 BattO at the O-5/6 rank, an O-5 OpsO, the Dant selected for flag rank and who later got 4 stars, and the O-6 DepDant - not one of us planned or expected to stay after our first obligation. Of the 9 of us in the room, 5 were USNA, and 4 were from ROTC, OCS, an SMC, and a State Maritime. We had a good laugh. We all remembered the classmates from our commissioning sources who surprised us all by staying - or by leaving. Life happens.

Many who are just regular, average mids while at USNA, middle of the pack, no fancy awards, find they have a talent for leadership at sea or in the field, thrive and find joy, and get the burning in the gut for command. Ditto any other commissioning source. Others get out for various reasons along the way, which is planned for and expected, numbers-wise. As long as the initial obligation is completed with honorable service, I am content and have no desire to criticize.

I was sure I was going to leave after my required years, having sought a commission via OCS after dating an AROTC guy and liking and respecting his commitment to service, and the options for a good career that were open to him. It took me exactly one tour to realize I loved the challenge of working to support a mission as part of a team, and working with smart, salty sailors - and learning to lead. I never looked back.

My DH, a USNA grad, went aviation, focused on getting through flight school and on to his Fleet squadron, so he could get out and fly for the airlines as soon as possible. Got jets. Thought he had died and gone to heaven. Got the burning in the gut for squadron command. Had that and 3 more commands. Twenty-six years later...

I never cared where my officers got their commission, as long as they performed. I counseled many as they agonized over going or staying, which usually happens at the 6-8 year point.

Play the long game here, and watch the journey unfold. There is no knowing which way it will go.
 
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Hlsng said:
We were in your shoes last year and DS is now thriving at a SMC and while many things have changed his desire to serve has not. Initially there was disappointment and a questioning of fairness in the process. We have accepted that in our DS case his SAT/ACT was borderline and therefore did not deserve to make the cut. The only thing that continues to sting is being laughed at by parents of siblings attending USNA when asked if their DS/DD had plans to make military service a career. Not only were they not considering a military career - it was beyond their comprehension. I think the SA's do a very good job of meeting their criteria for appointments but I am not sure they do a good job of vetting those who truly want to make military service a career. When I am at DS's SMC it is clear that these cadets want to serve and are paying for the privilege of a military college experience and hopes of a commission. It is no less inspiring and in ways more impressive that they choose this path many paying dearly for the opportunity and not receiving the degree of respect and accolades of their contemporaries at the SA's.

I am curious if someone here has any data on the "stick" rates for SA's and SMC's.
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You actually believe it is possible for SA admissions to somehow "vet" candidates to somehow determine if they have career military aspirations? Please. Thankfully that is not their job. Anyone who claims that a 17/18 year old young man or woman should know as high school senior whether or not they want to make the military an active duty career, without having actually served as commissioned officer, let alone one day in uniform as a cadet/midshipman, is completely off base imo. I was a USNA graduate. I left active duty for personal and family reasons and continued my career in the Navy Reserve. I retired as a Navy Captain with 30 years of service. Like the rest of my classmates, I made an informed career decision based on what was best for me and my family after serving for 7 years of active duty, not as a high school senior. My father was a 30-year career active duty naval officer, my brother did 22. I thought I was going to follow the same path, but did not really know until I served in the fleet. This is same for any graduate of any service academy or any officer commissioned by any source - and same for our enlisted force. You don't really know till you serve if an active career is right for you. Period.

Thankfully, the SAs do not recruit with the "we don't want you unless you plan to stay for 20" mindset. They want motivated future officers who are dedicated to excellence and a desire to serve. Serving for you service obligation is still service to your country, and for sure service in the guard and reserve after leaving AD is service. Our armed services are staffed for planned attrition. If there were suddenly magically a 100% retention rate there would not be enough billets at the more senior levels. Again, thankfully, our military plans on officers making informed decisions and keeping quality, motivated officer progressing in their careers and others choosing to separate from AD.

One of my USNA classmates and good friends swore from day one he was going to do minimum 5 years and get out. He thrived on active duty and is now a one-star Admiral. Another friend we were certain was going to our first classmate-admiral someday left active duty after his commitment, got his MBA and eventually started his own business. And the list goes on. Every decision is individual and based on experience and not from research and a campus visit as a high school senior.
 
NavyHoops said:
There is tons of USNA data out there, lots of NPS thesis on it. The bottom line is for those of us who have gone through this process and lived it know that when we interview a 17 year old and they are adamant a military career is all they will do, we know the chances of that are slim based purely on stats. And it's not just stats of serving 20, but the stats of making it to a commission, selected for active duty, selected through all the cuts that happen while in service (history tells us the military downsizes every decade or two) and selected for promotion. And those who planned to bail at 5, end up doing 30. All I want to hear from a kid is they will be open to their options and want to serve. I have talked to kids who only ask questions about the education and grad school and don't ask a single military question... That sends warning flags to me. At 17-18 things seem so clear.

Well at 30, married with 2 kids, 5 combat deployments, Purple Heart and more funerals than you count and orders to your last pick with a unit slated to deploy again... You might pack it in. That wasn't me, but I know this one to be true and dozens just like it. For me, I was always open to the possibility and never thought I would 5 and dive. After 2 extended combat deployments, another year overseas, seeing enough miserable things to make your head spin, enough funerals you wouldn't think it's possible, burying a best friend, burying an ex boyfriend, and notifying 2 families their loved one didn't make it... I was done. I was mad, angry, jaded. It was time for me to leave.

I throw these situations out there to show that making that statement at 17 is not the same at 28 and having a family, knowing the good and bad of the military, making all the cuts, and understanding what your future could or could not in the military. I am one of those that thinks the SA commitment should go back to 6 years and even increased to 7. And any SA parent who laughs about that question and their kid hasn't commissioned yet... They have no clue. Plenty of folks stick around for 20+, but I just venture to say as someone who has done this process it's not cut and dry.
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And there are more ways to serve than 20 active duty. I was one of those that initially had 20 year career+ as a goal. That changed after first duty station and I got out at 5. I then stayed in the reserves and retired at 20. Rather than stay on active duty, I went to law school. SAs prepare one for many outstanding careers - whether active, a reserve career plus civilian, or just civilian. These days, being a reservist is a huge obligation and commitment. Much more so than back in the 70s and 80s.

As a BGO, I too look for quality answers from candidates that include uncertainty about the long road, but strong commitment to the near-term goal of service to country.
 
If a career was something that USNA wanted from every candidate...then the minimum service obligation would be 20 years and not 5. USNA has been upfront that candidates should have the mindset for at least 5 years of service.
 
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