Exterminate the Taliban

Don't be mistaken you are far wiser than most when it comes to this. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "we should just drop a nuke on this place and turn it into a parking lot". At least you are keeping current, researching, and making an educated observation. Don't devalue your position because of your age.

Linkgmr and BillSL are completely right, you won't win the war unless you win the people. THAT'S how insurgency will lose their drive, when the people they harass, abuse and manipulate stand up against them.

I have been watching this thread but keeping my mouth shut. I understand the "impulse" to turn the place into a parking lot but also know it would not work so well in practice.
Here are my questions: How will we know we have won the war and what are we winning?
 
When will we know? When the Afghan army and police are able to fight on their own (they are getting there.... Based on reports from 4-4 Cav, our guys were out in 4 MRAP's and got ambushed. All 4 were disabled and ANA soldiers who were in 2 other trucks stuck with our guys and fought alongside them until the enemy withdrew. Fortunately, the wounds were all minor. The fact that these guys are willing to stick with us in a firefight speaks volumes.

As to what we are winning? Security. Every time we have taken the isolationist road, the results were never good for us.
 
So we win when the Afghan Army and police can defend a stable and effective government that is not anti-American? Or am I putting too many words in your mouth?

I am far from a dove and don't promote isolationism but I am not sure we will win security.
 
I would not necessarily say "that is not anti-American". As long as they contribute to the promotion of civilized behavior and do not resort to terrorism as a means of promoting their agenda, then I think it is possible to coexist with the U.S. At least at this point, that is my opinion as to what I would consider a "win". As long as they can self-govern without causing other problems worldwide, then I'd consider it a good thing.

I think that if that objective is reached, then we would have won a certain amount of security. In no way do I think we will win absolute security by those things, but if we are better off and have to worry less about a knife to the back, then I would say a certain amount of security is achieved.
 
So we win when the Afghan Army and police can defend a stable and effective government that is not anti-American? Or am I putting too many words in your mouth?

I am far from a dove and don't promote isolationism but I am not sure we will win security.

We want the Afghans to fend for themselves, have a stable government, and an Army/police that can protect it and its citizens.
 
We want the Afghans to fend for themselves, have a stable government, and an Army/police that can protect it and its citizens.

As it stands, the only way to have a sufficient standing force to defend their government is to take large subsidies from us. There is the additional economic component since they don't have enough of an economy or government revenues to pay for a police and standing military they need without allied help.
 
Yes, it was a joke....with a bite.... It was made in part to make one think about what we have to deal with there....
 
I know you are joking (or at least I hope so)....but that is a very bad joke. We have many Soldiers and Marines who are putting their lives on the line helping to eradicate the drug trade among other things in Afghanistan.

It is the profits from this trade that fuels and pays for the insurgents.
Actually it is our actions in trying to eradicate the drug trade that is aiding the insurgency by making the villagers hostile to us. It would be wiser to purchase their stock and destroy it, than to eradicate their fields.
 
Is it possible for them to use their crop fields for something else?
 
Is it possible for them to use their crop fields for something else?

Yes. It is my understanding that wheat is grown in those regions. If one has patience, fruit orchards can be established, but in these uncertain times getting that level of confidence is difficult.

I agree that confiscating and destroying the crop does not make us an ally of the locals.

Where we have a reasonable degree of control over Taliban activities, purchasing the current year's crop at an inflated price and destroying it is a good thing if you can get an agreement to plant other crops (e.g. wheat) for a guaranteed price in subsequent years. I think we'd certainly trade an expensive farm subsidy program for cutting the Taliban's and AQ's business opportunities and making a dent in the heroin market worldwide. The problem is that we don't necessarily exert enough control over enough of the poppy growing region to change the marketplace dynamic. That takes a large presence in a very large area.

And of course, once you start buying poppies at a premium, more are planted...
 
Please share with us how you came to this conclusion. Do you think our only tool in eradicating the drug trade in Afghanistan is destroying their fields? I hope not. Because it is more complicated than that and is far too long to discuss here.

Now I have no idea how much time you have spent in Afghanistan, but I have spent way to much time there to let this go unchallenged.

Eradicating the drug trade in Afghanistan is an international issue that has brought together both alleys and foes. As such it is a problem that is being dealt with from multiple angles by the international community through multiple agencies.

In simple terms, and as part of our COIN operations, we are better served by teaching them to harvest other crops. But in order for them to do so, they need A) Security; B) A market; C) an economic crop; and D) the infrastructural to get their goods to market.

Yes, we have had success in this area. Especially when we have had enough manpower to sustain the operations.

Here are some key facts:

1. The Taliban only benefit from 2 - 12 percent of the Afghan drug trade (Best estimate).
2. The fact is that the history of drug enforcement is checkered at best. The United States has not won the "war on drugs" after 40 years within our own borders. There is no reason to believe that we could be more successful in a place like Afghanistan.

This is what Richard Holbrooke had to say about our efforts to eradicate the Afghan poppy crop:

“The Western policies against the opium crop, the poppy crop, have been a failure,” the representative, Richard C. Holbrooke, told reporters on the margins of the Group of 8 conference in the northern Italian city of Trieste, Reuters reported. “They did not result in any damage to the Taliban, but they put farmers out of work and they alienated people and drove people into the arms of the Taliban.”

Mr. Holbrooke said the United States would begin phasing out eradication efforts, which generally have involved spraying or plowing under poppy fields, often under fire from Taliban militants or angry farmers. Instead, he said, more emphasis would be placed on helping Afghan farmers make a living through other crops and on seizing both drugs coming out of the country and growing and processing supplies coming in.

Mr. Holbrooke said Saturday that the United States had “wasted hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars” on the eradication program. “The poppy farmer is not our enemy. The Taliban are,” he was reported as saying.

And Antonio Maria Costa, the head of the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, praised the shift, calling eradication efforts “a sad joke” — sad because so many Afghan security forces had been killed in the efforts, though only “about 3 percent of the volume” had been eradicated, Reuters said.

Afghanistan supplies more than 90 percent of the world’s heroin, and the drug trade is estimated to account for about half of Afghanistan’s economy. The United Nations estimates that in 2007, the Taliban made as much as $300 million from the opium trade."

So as to your 4 point COIN Strategy, it is all good stuff. The problem is that the Taliban has benefited from extorting money from international relief projects that are trying to provide security and build infrastructure. It is believed that the Taliban has benefited more from this extortion of international aid than they have from the opium trade. Afghanistan is a unique problem, part of the problem is that Afghanistan is a nation in borders only. The corruption of the government and Afghan society as a whole makes any progress glacial and terribly expensive. More to the point, you stated in an earlier post that a lot of Marines and soldiers are putting their lives on the line to eradicate the opium trade. That is why I think it is important to weigh the benefit of putting your men/women in harms way. It is important to consider tf the goals are important enough to the war effort and even then one needs to ask if the mission is achievable. If upon reflection, the strategy is questionable, then you should consider alternatives and seek to gain the greatest benefit at the most reasonable cost.

While I admit to being trite in suggesting it might be better to buy the stock of poppies than to continue to try and eradicate it. The fact is that the US has already started to move away from that strategy. The idea of exchanging crops is worthwhile and should be pursued, but market dynamics will impact that as well (i.e. a drought impacting wheat production this year). My point was not well articulated, but simply put, we need to give the farmers an economic incentive to stop producing poppies, we would like to keep these drugs off the streets, and we don't want to give the Taliban any allies. As to your final comment that "we have had success in this area. Especially when we have had enough manpower to sustain the operations". Manpower is being drawn down, there will not be more Americans on the ground in future years, so we will need to transition from hard power to soft power and we need the Afghan government to stand up and protect their people.

Nuff Said...
 
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Mr. Holbrooke said Saturday that the United States had “wasted hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars” on the eradication program. “The poppy farmer is not our enemy. The Taliban are,” he was reported as saying.

And this is news to who?

Ronald Reagan haunts us even from the grave.
 
Though Nixon declared it, it didn't really get rolling until Nancy told us to "Just Say No" and RR started shoveling billions into it. LINK
OK. I just wanted to make sure where you were going with this. Sadly the WoD has become more politics than public policy. Upon any objective review it cannot be seen as a success. The narco civil war to our southern border, the weed gardens in our national forests and the tunnels under the border are all indications that we need to reconsider our strategy. I don't want to diminish the impact that drugs have on our society, and I believe that President Reagan had reason to be concerned about the threat to a civil society from narco criminals and drug addicted citizens. I believe Reagan did what he thought best for the nation. But decades later, with little to show for the national treasure expended on this 'war' it is certainly worth considering other options.
 
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But decades later, with little to show for the national treasure expended on this 'war' it is certainly worth considering other options.

One major contributing factor in repealing prohibition was the tax revenues that were not being collected. When legislators realized this as an untapped source any moral objections were quickly rationalized away.

Anyone besides me see a similar scenario happening with marijuana?
 
One major contributing factor in repealing prohibition was the tax revenues that were not being collected. When legislators realized this as an untapped source any moral objections were quickly rationalized away.

Anyone besides me see a similar scenario happening with marijuana?
I can see the scenario but da*n, I can't buy into it. That crap is bad news.
 
Suppose you completely level it with a nuclear weapon power conventional explosion. Now you have just destroyed everything those civilians ever knew.
 
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