Failing a class in Yuk year.

[DDmom]

You all, this was not a cadet who failed a DPE class. It was an academic class.

Failing one academic class alone and getting 60 days off from the Academy does not sound right. There must be other factors involved. Hard to say what all the factors might be, but there must be more to the story. To answer OP, it would seem pretty clear that if being on admin leave and offered a retest, that failing it a second time would result in separation.
If this sentence has already been handed out, then the Cadet has met with TAC and AC advisor, and it was determined by Academic board to be the best course of action for the desired results. The Cadet will have a complete understanding of the why, what, and how to proceed. The Cadet must have the desire to proceed.....
Best of luck to your DS.

Actually there were about four dozen who failed a course. Approximately Three dozen are taking the separation, while about a dozen appealed the decision. The later are being given the chance to retake the test. Pass or separation.

Sorry to hear it. I was told that approximately 200 cadets were put on disciplinary action or separated due to academic failure after first semester. They are calling it the Saturday night massacre. The teachers are not changing standards and it seems there are many children not ready for the combination of the academic stress and strict regimentation.

Interesting??? This particular cadet is a yuk not a plebe? Do you know the % from the various classes plebe-firstie? Is there normally this many fails during fall semester?

 

[SFRanger]

You all, this was not a cadet who failed a DPE class. It was an academic class.

Failing one academic class alone and getting 60 days off from the Academy does not sound right. There must be other factors involved. Hard to say what all the factors might be, but there must be more to the story. To answer OP, it would seem pretty clear that if being on admin leave and offered a retest, that failing it a second time would result in separation.
If this sentence has already been handed out, then the Cadet has met with TAC and AC advisor, and it was determined by Academic board to be the best course of action for the desired results. The Cadet will have a complete understanding of the why, what, and how to proceed. The Cadet must have the desire to proceed.....
Best of luck to your DS.

Actually there were about four dozen who failed a course. Approximately Three dozen are taking the separation, while about a dozen appealed the decision. The later are being given the chance to retake the test. Pass or separation.

Sorry to hear it. I was told that approximately 200 cadets were put on disciplinary action or separated due to academic failure after first semester. They are calling it the Saturday night massacre. The teachers are not changing standards and it seems there are many children not ready for the combination of the academic stress and strict regimentation.

Interesting??? This particular cadet is a yuk not a plebe? Do you know the % from the various classes plebe-firstie? Is there normally this many fails during fall semester?

I was reading yesterday on another site and it said that normally about 200 cadets fail out of each class academically during their 4 years. We did not know that and I have nothing to back it up but it now seems to be true. They also try to separate these students before they make their commitment in their Cow year. I was shocked by the number as I know these kids are all really good students. It also said that a "B" (3.0 GPA) average your first year will normally put you in the top 50% of the class. Again, I was shocked as these children normally get nothing but straight "A's".

 

[Capt MJ]

Someone is going to get the C, D and F grades in classes. Across the SAs, cadets and mids who were the big academic frogs in their smaller ponds are now in a larger pond filled with fellow frogs with like stellar backgrounds.

Some who had an easy time in HS don’t learn fast enough how to ramp up their study discipline. Some don’t go to prof’s EI or office hours, informal peer tutoring sessions or ask for help until it’s too late, because they are so taken aback by their unfamiliar place at the bottom of the heap. Some are paralyzed by the endless grind and pressure, and don’t have the coping skills. If they are perfectionists, they have to learn how to optimize and go with the flow. Some get distracted by roommate drama or other issues, and don’t have the skills to block that out or coach themselves through down periods. Some may spread themselves too thin in ECAs, because that’s what they did in HS, and they haven’t re-balanced their time investment. Some don’t realize they might actually have to work on weekends to stay current. Some, sadly, let themselves self-destruct in academics, performance or conduct, so they don’t have to make the decision to leave, it’s someone else’s decision.

There is a lot of help available, formal and informal, for every area of challenge, including counseling. If your cadet calls home and says he or she is struggling with X, express your confidence, ask what their plan is to recover, get help, prioritize. A B is fine, really! Take the C, run with it, vow to recover! D or F, bury the pride, get help, cut out social media, budget love life and fun stuff, focus on life’s basics - food, water, sleep, academic/physical/military requirements.

 

[DrMom]

I can say...as someone who has been kicking around for a long time...
2.0 and go is an aspiration for those struggling to get by...and fearing that you will hang on close and never make it.
It is so hard.

 

[OldRetSWO]

It also said that a "B" (3.0 GPA) average your first year will normally put you in the top 50% of the class. Again, I was shocked as these children normally get nothing but straight "A's".

LOL, Service Academies have gotten so much gentler these days.
During my era at at USNA, we all had been good students in high school and for some, other colleges but USNA profs did not give easy grades - showing up, doing all the work and even getting help could still easily end up with a D or an F. I graduated with a 2.73 and I was WELL into the upper half of the class academically.

 

[SFRanger]

Someone is going to get the C, D and F grades in classes. Across the SAs, cadets and mids who were the big academic frogs in their smaller ponds are now in a larger pond filled with fellow frogs with like stellar backgrounds.

Some who had an easy time in HS don’t learn fast enough how to ramp up their study discipline. Some don’t go to prof’s EI or office hours, informal peer tutoring sessions or ask for help until it’s too late, because they are so taken aback by their unfamiliar place at the bottom of the heap. Some are paralyzed by the endless grind and pressure, and don’t have the coping skills. If they are perfectionists, they have to learn how to optimize and go with the flow. Some get distracted by roommate drama or other issues, and don’t have the skills to block that out or coach themselves through down periods. Some may spread themselves too thin in ECAs, because that’s what they did in HS, and they haven’t re-balanced their time investment. Some don’t realize they might actually have to work on weekends to stay current. Some, sadly, let themselves self-destruct in academics, performance or conduct, so they don’t have to make the decision to leave, it’s someone else’s decision.

There is a lot of help available, formal and informal, for every area of challenge, including counseling. If your cadet calls home and says he or she is struggling with X, express your confidence, ask what their plan is to recover, get help, prioritize. A B is fine, really! Take the C, run with it, vow to recover! D or F, bury the pride, get help, cut out social media, budget love life and fun stuff, focus on life’s basics - food, water, sleep, academic/physical/military requirements.

Well said.

It also said that a "B" (3.0 GPA) average your first year will normally put you in the top 50% of the class. Again, I was shocked as these children normally get nothing but straight "A's".

LOL, Service Academies have gotten so much gentler these days.
During my era at at USNA, we all had been good students in high school and for some, other colleges but USNA profs did not give easy grades - showing up, doing all the work and even getting help could still easily end up with a D or an F. I graduated with a 2.73 and I was WELL into the upper half of the class academically.

Wow, good info.

 

[Soldiergriz]

It also said that a "B" (3.0 GPA) average your first year will normally put you in the top 50% of the class. Again, I was shocked as these children normally get nothing but straight "A's".

LOL, Service Academies have gotten so much gentler these days.
During my era at at USNA, we all had been good students in high school and for some, other colleges but USNA profs did not give easy grades - showing up, doing all the work and even getting help could still easily end up with a D or an F. I graduated with a 2.73 and I was WELL into the upper half of the class academically.

Winner, winner....old grad post of the year!

Seriously though...perhaps some grade inflation has hit the academies as it has across the entire educational enterprise. I have no idea.

But, the soon-to-be graduates of this gentle institution will lead infantry / armor platoons that are the most lethal in history. So, not sure it matters much in the big scheme of things.

 

[DrMom]

@OldRetSWO So, was yours the last real plebe summer?

 

[here2learn]

Someone is going to get the C, D and F grades in classes. Across the SAs, cadets and mids who were the big academic frogs in their smaller ponds are now in a larger pond filled with fellow frogs with like stellar backgrounds.

Some who had an easy time in HS don’t learn fast enough how to ramp up their study discipline. Some don’t go to prof’s EI or office hours, informal peer tutoring sessions or ask for help until it’s too late, because they are so taken aback by their unfamiliar place at the bottom of the heap. Some are paralyzed by the endless grind and pressure, and don’t have the coping skills. If they are perfectionists, they have to learn how to optimize and go with the flow. Some get distracted by roommate drama or other issues, and don’t have the skills to block that out or coach themselves through down periods. Some may spread themselves too thin in ECAs, because that’s what they did in HS, and they haven’t re-balanced their time investment. Some don’t realize they might actually have to work on weekends to stay current. Some, sadly, let themselves self-destruct in academics, performance or conduct, so they don’t have to make the decision to leave, it’s someone else’s decision.

There is a lot of help available, formal and informal, for every area of challenge, including counseling. If your cadet calls home and says he or she is struggling with X, express your confidence, ask what their plan is to recover, get help, prioritize. A B is fine, really! Take the C, run with it, vow to recover! D or F, bury the pride, get help, cut out social media, budget love life and fun stuff, focus on life’s basics - food, water, sleep, academic/physical/military requirements.

Some cadets who were the big athletic frog in the smaller pond are now expected to swim in the academic pound as well.

 

[Capt MJ]

Frogs of all backgrounds must optimize across all ponds of gradable endeavor to stay sat! Some frogs gotta step it up.

 

[USMA 1994]

They still use he development and maturity model for all issues.

1. Plebe year very few cadets are separated based on performance. As long as they are making an effort, they are allowed to go to STAP and get through the plebe year classes.

2. The first cut seemed to happen right after Christmas of yearling year. Cadets that have failed only one class and have a decent record in everything else will typically get another chance. A cadet who has failed 1-2 academic classes, barely meets the PT standards, and is just average in the military or conduct environment would likely get separated.

3. Cows and Firsties have less leeway for mistakes. An pretty good cadet who fails a class these years may get another chance. A below average cadet will probably not.

 

[USMA 1994]

I can also tell you that having a 3.45 overall composite GPA will put you in the top 15% of the class of 2021. That tells me that grade inflation is not rampant.

This is a subject that is very close to my heart. I was one of those cadets who walked the line of a 2.0 and go each semester. It was not from a lack of intelligence or effort I lacked the educational foundation to succeed in a strong college environment. I worked my butt off everyday of my life for four years to walk across the stage with my classmates at graduation.

I was one of those big fish in a small pond and was the coolest kid in school. I never opened a book in high school and then all of a sudden I was extremely ordinary.

Parents usually only talk about the great accomplishments of their cadets while the reality is that all cadets struggle at some point and many struggle the entire four years.

 

[SMP]

I can also tell you that having a 3.45 overall composite GPA will put you in the top 15% of the class of 2021. That tells me that grade inflation is not rampant.

This is a subject that is very close to my heart. I was one of those cadets who walked the line of a 2.0 and go each semester. It was not from a lack of intelligence or effort I lacked the educational foundation to succeed in a strong college environment. I worked my butt off everyday of my life for four years to walk across the stage with my classmates at graduation.

I was one of those big fish in a small pond and was the coolest kid in school. I never opened a book in high school and then all of a sudden I was extremely ordinary.

Parents usually only talk about the great accomplishments of their cadets while the reality is that all cadets struggle at some point and many struggle the entire four years.

There's even less inflation than that for Class of 2022 as a 3.35 CPS will put in you the top 8.5%.

Someone asked earlier about the number of separations. For current Cows, class rankings as of July, 2018 were computed on a class size of 1229. At the next ranking as of the completion of AYT 2019-1 (7 February 2019), class size was listed as 1177. Thus, the current Cows class lost a total of 48 cadets over the course of 1 semester.

 

[Parent of 4]

You all, this was not a cadet who failed a DPE class. It was an academic class.

Sorry to hear this or about the situation. DS also indicates that there are many Plebes struggling both with DPE and the academic class load. He said he had to comfort one student crying, and stuck in their room, because they were over whelmed with the academic schedule. They have never gotten grades like this and did not know what to do or how to tell their parents this was just not the right choice for them. He is an academic tutor at the Academy for Calculus and Physics. At the same time, he is also being challenged in the courses.

DPE is also no joke. Military Movement is the most failed class at the Academy. After that they go on to boxing. A skype call this week revealed a beautiful black eye from boxing class. Luckily we have seen them before from wrestling. Yes they only spar with other cadets their sex and size but they fight. DS said he is out to knock the other guy out because he knows the other cadet is going to do the same thing to him. You ever been hit by a man that is 6' tall 220lbs that hits you as hard as he can and has had training? You have to be ready for it. The training should have started years ago.

Point is that it is now up to your DS. You have to decide if this is really the place for him. If it is, and he has the proper academic background, he will have to understand that he has to pass the test and go back and commit to studying at the library for 3 or more hours per night. This is what mine does. Weekends don't exist as homework need to be done and they have to work most of the day Saturday and Sunday. You will know if this is really what he wants because he will say things like "I am going to slay this SOB". He can not accept any excuses from himself or anyone else. On the bright side, I am sure he could probably get into almost any college in the US. It will be a tough pill to swallow but better than trying to push forward with something that is just not the right fit. The choice and commitment has to be his. All you can do is really help them find the right path.

DS has Military Movement coming up soon. Did really well in boxing but this scares the heck out of him, he is not a gymnast!! Just hoping to pass without damage to GPA.. Still don't understand when cartwheels and head stands will be helpful on the battlefield though..

 

[Roxane]

btw USMA got in the guiness book of records last year for the largest group doing cartwheels simultaneously....imagine that!

 

[OldRetSWO]

@OldRetSWO So, was yours the last real plebe summer?

I didn't and would rather not compare plebe summers thank you. Totally different theme/ethos from that of the modern era.
According to my son, his was the last real one.

By the way, my first semester GPA was 2.08 and class rank at the end of my first semester was around 1300 (we graduated approx 980)

 

[UHBlackhawk]

1. I know at least one flag officer who was a December grad. I know others who made the “dean’s list” every semester. Sometimes it was the bad list, then it was the good list so they could graduate on time.
2. One of my brothers “threw” some classes so he could avoid the dreaded interview with Rickover but had to strike a balance and do well enough for flight school.

 

[Overwhelmed]

This thread is eye-opening. But then again, I suppose ROTC cadets and civilian college students aren't immune from separation/expulsion either.

 

[proudpop2]

I can also tell you that having a 3.45 overall composite GPA will put you in the top 15% of the class of 2021. That tells me that grade inflation is not rampant.

This is a subject that is very close to my heart. I was one of those cadets who walked the line of a 2.0 and go each semester. It was not from a lack of intelligence or effort I lacked the educational foundation to succeed in a strong college environment. I worked my butt off everyday of my life for four years to walk across the stage with my classmates at graduation.

I was one of those big fish in a small pond and was the coolest kid in school. I never opened a book in high school and then all of a sudden I was extremely ordinary.

Parents usually only talk about the great accomplishments of their cadets while the reality is that all cadets struggle at some point and many struggle the entire four years.

There's even less inflation than that for Class of 2022 as a 3.35 CPS will put in you the top 8.5%.

Someone asked earlier about the number of separations. For current Cows, class rankings as of July, 2018 were computed on a class size of 1229. At the next ranking as of the completion of AYT 2019-1 (7 February 2019), class size was listed as 1177. Thus, the current Cows class lost a total of 48 cadets over the course of 1 semester.

I believe they lost more than that if turn backs are included in this count? for instance, 1229-1177 = 52 cadets fewer in the class size (but if turn backs are now added back in/included in this current class size then there would have had to have been more separated that resulted in that 1177 number? correct?

I am not sure exactly how turn backs are counted in the process but I know of at least one cadet who was originally supposed to graduate a year earlier, however, he became a turn back due to injury so he would become part of the following year's class. So, if he is now included in that 1177 remaining class size number, for instance, that would mean that another cadet was actually separated as well to arrive at the same 1177 number? So, not sure how many turn backs there are on average but I would think the cadet separation number would be understated as a result?

 

[UHBlackhawk]

This thread is eye-opening. But then again, I suppose ROTC cadets and civilian college students aren't immune from separation/expulsion either.

For an ROTC cadet it can be worse if they become medically unqualified as they are not on active duty. Don’t pass Go, don’t collect your MEB.