Fate of NCAA gymnastics, boxing, fencing and rifle team

[MombaBomba]

I hope I'm not adding fuel to the fire. I understand what it feels like when your kid works so hard at a sport and then can't play - for whatever reason.

I found an article that discusses the costs of each sport and the coaches at USAFA. Yes, football is paid the most, followed by basketball, hockey and volleyball. That being said, they are self-sustaining sports and I suspect there was budget for 2 more coaches (or were they replacements?)

http://gazette.com/what-air-force-spends-on-sports/article/99861

I found this interesting:
Note: All coaches of nonrevenue generating sports (i.e. coaches other than those for football, men’s basketball, women’s basketball, ice hockey and volleyball) double as physical education instructors.

Maybe the cuts also included reducing the phys-ed staff? Dunno. What I do know is that there are a lot of cuts across AF right now. It all depends on the needs of the AF.

Thank you so much for the link. That was quite informative. The mind absolutely boggles at the salaries. The 2008-2009 salary of $725,000 for the head football coach was wicked way more than I ever imagined. I knew sports were expensive, but "Wow! What an eye opener!"

 

[JMC0759]

I think the parents who are complaining need to put these cuts into perspective. Yes, it is the military and they are having cuts.

Your kid might lose a sport that they enjoy playing. I get it.

However, there are many more parents whose kids are looking at the prospect of losing their JOBS in the Air Force. There are Reduction in Force and Separation boards coming this summer for active duty officers in the year groups all the way up to 2012. These are graduates of the Academy who have planned on a career in the AF who will now be separated. They are losing a whole career, not just an extracurricular sport.

Please put that into perspective before you complain about your kid's "loss".

Stealth_81

Yeah I get it too. I'm just venting and not really complaining about my kids "loss." Nothing anybody writes here is going to change anything anyway. The forum is just a great place to exchange thoughts and feelings. There have been great points made on both sides of this issue.

But, I am going to enjoy the rest of her season and am leaving for the Springs tomorrow morning. Thirteen hours driving and I will relish every second of it as it will remind me of the great times we had as a family over the last 15 years as we drove to competitions. To my fellow team parent. I'll give your daughter a hug and try to post some video for you!

Support Air Force Athletics!

 

[haz]

Here's the thing though... Even though that belief is held by many, it is likely not accurate. By NCAAs own required reporting, only a small handfull of Football programs actually return a net profit (used to fund other programs or otherwise). The VAST majority of D1 Football programs run in the red when the final accounting is done... this appears to include USAFA, USMA along with roughly 90% of the other universities.

The shortfall is made up by "subsidizing" sports programs. The fact that some of these funds may come from different accounts/sources, does not change the fact that D1 sports are not revenue positive.... even Football.

Many make the arguement that there are other benefits in terms of awareness, recruiting, public relations, etc. and that may well be so. And if those efforts are worth the costs (not profit).... then those entrusted to make the call will do so accordingly.

If you look at page 36 of the report it has the "total net revinue" for football as a + $2,541,000.00 when all other sports are negative. I didn't see where they talked abouty USAFA

 

[MedB]

I didn't see where they talked abouty USAFA

I will see if I can dig up some of the research in my older posts, or you can poke around as well.

But by memory...

A Business of College Sports examination listing the top most profitable 140 Footbal and Basketball programs. The last few were net losers with 140 being like 2.5 million negative and AFA was below that.

An ESPN study/article showing top 20 rated football teams and total expenditures and revenues. In 2008 the delta for AFA was in the 24 million range.

A Forbes article citing how only 14 teams in the country netted profit from footbal that year. AFA was not one of them

Two different USA Today investigative studies showing several years of the subsidies various schools had to shell out to cover the shortfall. Including 6 years or so for AFA with the last reported number topping 28 million annually.

Another article (can't remember source) detailing how only 22 of 120 FBS teams made net profit in 2011. AFA was one of the other 98, not the 22.

And several more... but again, you are free to poke around and see what's out there!

 

[AHS74]

Not all money for athletic programs come from "tax" dollars. Donations to Falcon Pride and other donations help pay for these programs. I don't know if these monies factor into calculations of profitability. I, for one, support both the USAFA and athletics through the Endowment Fund and Falcon Pride.

 

[Bundy]

Interesting that USAFA opened a beautiful new (and large) fencing gym just two years ago. That was not an insignificant capital investment. Strange that they would spend all that money on a sport that they could potentially cut just two years later.

 

[Pima]

In the 90's the AF built a new commissary on our base, 2 years later the base was closed because of BRAC. When the AF contracted for the new gym 4 or 5 years ago to have it built, I doubt they saw sequestration coming down the pike to the level that has been implemented.

 

[AcademyFriend1]

I will see if I can dig up some of the research in my older posts, or you can poke around as well.

But by memory...

A Business of College Sports examination listing the top most profitable 140 Footbal and Basketball programs. The last few were net losers with 140 being like 2.5 million negative and AFA was below that.

An ESPN study/article showing top 20 rated football teams and total expenditures and revenues. In 2008 the delta for AFA was in the 24 million range.

A Forbes article citing how only 14 teams in the country netted profit from footbal that year. AFA was not one of them

Two different USA Today investigative studies showing several years of the subsidies various schools had to shell out to cover the shortfall. Including 6 years or so for AFA with the last reported number topping 28 million annually.

Another article (can't remember source) detailing how only 22 of 120 FBS teams made net profit in 2011. AFA was one of the other 98, not the 22.

And several more... but again, you are free to poke around and see what's out there!

I think the wrinkle here is that when they calculate expenses for the service academy teams they include the "scholarships" for everyone on the football team as an expense, although no cadets/midshipmen pay tuition. So if USAFA was actually foregoing say, $50,000 in tuition multiplied by 80-100 on a football roster they would not be a profitable program. But not having scholarship costs imputed into their expenses (because all of the cadets are "on scholarship" in return for the service obligation) means that in what we think of as common sense terms, the USAFA football program does make a profit. Same is true for USMA and USNA (and they get extra money for the Army-Navy game telecast.)

 

[Wing77]

Does anyone have idea why these specific sports were selected as opposed to any other sports (leaving out men's football - assuming it is revenue positive)? Or what criteria was used for the decision process?

 

[MombaBomba]

Does anyone have idea why these specific sports were selected as opposed to any other sports (leaving out men's football - assuming it is revenue positive)? Or what criteria was used for the decision process?

I have no clue why they targeted these specific sports or what criteria was used. I assume they included the application of title 9 in their decision making process.

I had heard that a decision was going to made around mid February regarding these sports. I haven't heard one way or the other. Hopefully there will be some sort of notification or announcement soon.

Perhaps all the positive press for gymnastics and boxing of late, as well as previous pieces on the marksman and fencer is a positive indicator.

 

[tri_mom]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but triathlon is a NCAA women's sport starting Fall 2014 and USAFA was one of the schools who signed the emerging sport agreement.

Something that was not pointed out in an earlier post is that a DoD policy allows athletes with professional contracts to ask for their military release after two years of active duty. And players are allowed to play professional sports while assigned to recruiting stations for those two years. I have yet to meet any military officer who played football or basketball, but I know many who played the so-called non-revenue sports. I don't think the return on investment of creating/educating a military officer is there for these expensive sports.

I hope that USAFA does not force any sport to become a club sport thus putting the costs of travel and competing on the cadets/parents. These athletes wear the uniform and represent the Academy.

 

[Wing77]

I know that gymnastics as a club sport is a terrible option and would not be viable with current team members. It's a sport that demands so much from its athletes (more than any sport I have ever seen - most gymnasts train more than 30 hours per week during high school), I can't see a club as a good representative of a service academy.

The sports selected just seem very random, and it could not have been a merit-based decision - as the women's gymnastics team is at or near the top of nearly all statistical categories tracked by the academy for its D1 sports teams (gpa, mpa, pft, grad rate, etc.).

The gymnastics gym is also under renovation - so that is strange too.

 

[Wing77]

So official word - none of these sports will be cut. Instead, belt tightening by all the sports to account for funding changes.

 

[tri_mom]

Yeah! Great news. Thanks for posting.

I do hope that they (all service academies) make triathlon a varsity sport this coming year since it'll be a NCAA Div 1 sport. It's not so much for the money (although that little bit helps), but for the recognition that comes with being on a varsity team vice club team. Triathlon races are 1 or 2 hours depending on the race length in which there is never a moment of standing, walking, or otherwise resting. These competitors are hard core athletes.

 

[fencersmother]

Belt tightening for the fencing team?

For goodness sake, they SHARE SHOES. From my perspective, that's a pretty tight belt already, and thoroughly embarrassing for the United States Air Force Academy.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Belt tightening for the fencing team?

For goodness sake, they SHARE SHOES. From my perspective, that's a pretty tight belt already, and thoroughly embarrassing for the United States Air Force Academy.

I just googled fencing shoes and they run $80. My son got paid $900 from the Academy last month (and nearly every month) free and clear while gaining a world class "free" education. Have your DD or DS buy himself a pair shoes with the money they got paid each and every month. Problem solved. Also, didn't the USAFA just build a fantastic new fencing facility? It doesn't sound like USAFA is all that cheap if you got a new facility.

IMHO, government budgets need to be cut. It sure beats taxing people more or piling on more national debt. General Johnson is making smart cuts. I am a huge fan of hers. The cuts have been mandated and she has to deal with them the best way she knows how. Those cuts will result in some good people losing their jobs and some programs that have to tighten their belt.

 

[JMC0759]

I just googled fencing shoes and they run $80. My son got paid $900 from the Academy last month (and nearly every month) free and clear while gaining a world class "free" education. Have your DD or DS buy himself a pair shoes with the money they got paid each and every month. Problem solved. Also, didn't the USAFA just build a fantastic new fencing facility? It doesn't sound like USAFA is all that cheap if you got a new facility.

IMHO, government budgets need to be cut. It sure beats taxing people more or piling on more national debt. General Johnson is making smart cuts. I am a huge fan of hers. The cuts have been mandated and she has to deal with them the best way she knows how. Those cuts will result in some good people losing their jobs and some programs that have to tighten their belt.

We were on campus several weeks ago. We heard that the budget for gloves for the receivers on the football team is $86,000.00 a year. Also heard that the entire football team stays in a hotel in Colorado Springs the night before a home game. Belt tightening indeed.

 

[fencersmother]

MN Dad, $80 fencing shoes are equivalent to Apolo Ono buying his ice skates in the kiddie department at Walmart.

As it was for my kids, they brought all their own equipment, so if USAFA provided a gym for practice and meets, well, bully for them. I believe my sons made closer to $125/month their first two years.

I believe my kids were gone by the time the new gym was built. Wasn't that the gym totally financed by the alumni?

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

MN Dad, $80 fencing shoes are equivalent to Apolo Ono buying his ice skates in the kiddie department at Walmart.

As it was for my kids, they brought all their own equipment, so if USAFA provided a gym for practice and meets, well, bully for them. I believe my sons made closer to $125/month their first two years.

I believe my kids were gone by the time the new gym was built. Wasn't that the gym totally financed by the alumni?

I asked my son what he got paid free and clear last month. He said $900. I know some initial months were substantially less. If fencing shoes cost 3X more then so be it. Pony up the $300 for the shoes from the $900. You are not going to get any sympathy from taxpayers.

I have no idea who paid for the new fencing facility. But it's a FANTASTIC facility and the fencing team paid $0 for it. They are hardly under privileged.

We were on campus several weeks ago. We heard that the budget for gloves for the receivers on the football team is $86,000.00 a year. Also heard that the entire football team stays in a hotel in Colorado Springs the night before a home game. Belt tightening indeed.

My kid doesn't play a D1 sport. But football too will experience significant cuts (as it should). While I don't agree with this next statement, the public, alumni, ESPN and others think football is a big deal and spend accordingly. They don't care to be "fair". If fencing (as an example) was a big deal and people sat around on a Saturday glued to the TV to watch fencing, then that sport too would get special treatment.

Life isn't fair. You and I never ever want it to be. If it was, we would take turns living in Bangladesh, Rwanda, taking turns having an parent who is addicted to drugs, etc. And about once a year for a couple of days we could have what we have.

I'm not trying to bust your chops. But no one at USAFA has a thing to complain about. It's a great gig and an incredible opportunity even with a (measly IMHO) 3% budget cut.

 

[Pima]

The fact is the AF is looking to cut 20% not 3%. Things are going to get ugly. Things are going to get cut.

I am not sure I agree with the pony up statement because if I recall correctly, fencer's DS was recruited for fencing. They would have made it in without the recruitment (she has twins, both commissioned AFA), but the pay out of pocket as a recruited athlete is not the path I would support.

The we are no longer recruiting fencers, I am with from a taxpayer perspective.

If you want to save money, here is my suggestion....time to cut the flag officers and their staff. We are top heavy. The reality is that will not happen because the O9 won't cut the O8's job. The O8 isn't going to cut their staff.

The running joke has never been more true than it is now. If you are an O4 or below at the Pentagon, your job is getting coffee.

Should niche sports at the AFA take a hit? Probably. However, so should the mini empires that exist because flag officers created them for protection/job security. There is more than enough duplication of jobs to go around to save money.

Before we go into the GS and airframes, many of you know I am married to Bullet. He entered his 35 job in 08. There was a contractor and AF member for both the 22 and the 35. Now, it is just him. 5 years...4 down to 1.