Fraternization

[sophietunion2]

Hypothetically, if I become intimate with a 4 degree and end up becoming pregnant, how will that pan out? I know I’d get a medical year of absence and give it up for adoption but is that assuming they know about how it came about? Or would I be disenrolled for fraternization?

 

[Walman888]

Hypothetically, if I become intimate with a 4 degree and end up becoming pregnant, how will that pan out? I know I’d get a medical year of absence and give it up for adoption but is that assuming they know about how it came about? Or would I be disenrolled for fraternization?

OK, I'll bite.... By 4 degree do you mean a 4th Classman? A Plebe? "Disenrolled" should be "Separated." Are you sure you are in the right place?

 

[sophietunion2]

Hypothetically, if I become intimate with a 4 degree and end up becoming pregnant, how will that pan out? I know I’d get a medical year of absence and give it up for adoption but is that assuming they know about how it came about? Or would I be disenrolled for fraternization?

OK, I'll bite.... By 4 degree do you mean a 4th Classman? A Plebe? "Disenrolled" should be "Separated." Are you sure you are in the right place?

Plebe

 

[Walman888]

Hypothetically, if I become intimate with a 4 degree and end up becoming pregnant, how will that pan out? I know I’d get a medical year of absence and give it up for adoption but is that assuming they know about how it came about? Or would I be disenrolled for fraternization?

OK, I'll bite.... By 4 degree do you mean a 4th Classman? A Plebe? "Disenrolled" should be "Separated." Are you sure you are in the right place?

Plebe

My understanding is that a Cadet at USMA is not permitted either marital or parental responsibilities. I am no expert on the subject though.

 

[Capt MJ]

Based on my knowledge of how USNA handles these cases, and some knowledge of how similar cases have been handled at other SAs, in this hypothetical situation:

- The pregnant female cadet/mid must report her condition and abide by USMA policy.
- The cadet/mid either completely separates or goes out on medical leave, and if they desire to return as a cadet/mid, they join a later class, supplying documentation they are no longer the legal guardian responsible for a dependent. Of course they must be a cadet in good standing when they leave, and be fully qualified to return.
- I don’t believe there is a requirement to name the father by the SA.
- The father, if a cadet/mid, may also not be the legal guardian of a dependent and may have to waive rights, according to the applicable state laws.
- This is where it gets sticky. The father has rights, and those can vary by state. Various states may or may not require a father’s name, and an unmarried father may have to document paternity. Family on either side may wish to adopt the baby, rather than let the baby (not “it,” please, as described above) leave the family to go to an unrelated adoptive family. This kind of information almost always comes out - that means no photos of father holding baby on social media, lies by omission, etc.

Fraternization offenses and their adjudication come about through a typical sequence of events. It’s reported, it’s investigated, it’s adjudicated on the merits of the case and precedent, the conduct records and seniority of those involved.

No one should become pregnant unless they choose not to use birth control, and that includes the male in the equation, unless they have a physical contra-indication or religious objection to using protection for either pregnancy or STDs. Birth control options are readily available at military medical clinics after an appropriate discussion with a provider. No questions are asked that fall outside the person’s health-related condition. No shame attached. It has been that way for several decades now.

I am trying to stop my brain from wondering what is actually going on here. If you’re going to play around with a process that produces non-hypothetical human beings, be smart about it.

 

[Walman888]

Based on my knowledge of how USNA handles these cases, and some knowledge of how similar cases have been handled at other SAs, in this hypothetical situation:

- The pregnant female cadet/mid must report her condition and abide by USMA policy.
- The cadet/mid either completely separates or goes out on medical leave, and if they desire to return as a cadet/mid, they join a later class, supplying documentation they are no longer the legal guardian responsible for a dependent. Of course they must be a cadet in good standing when they leave, and be fully qualified to return.
- I don’t believe there is a requirement to name the father by the SA.
- The father, if a cadet/mid, may also not be the legal guardian of a dependent and may have to waive rights, according to the applicable state laws.
- This is where it gets sticky. The father has rights, and those can vary by state. Various states may or may not require a father’s name, and an unmarried father may have to document paternity. Family on either side may wish to adopt the baby, rather than let the baby (not “it,” please, as described above) leave the family to go to an unrelated adoptive family. This kind of information almost always comes out - that means no photos of father holding baby on social media, lies by omission, etc.

Fraternization offenses and their adjudication come about through a typical sequence of events. It’s reported, it’s investigated, it’s adjudicated on the merits of the case and precedent, the conduct records and seniority of those involved.

No one should become pregnant unless they choose not to use birth control, and that includes the male in the equation, unless they have a physical contra-indication or religious objection to using protection for either pregnancy or STDs. Birth control options are readily available at military medical clinics after an appropriate discussion with a provider. No questions are asked that fall outside the person’s health-related condition. No shame attached. It has been that way for several decades now.

I am trying to stop my brain from wondering what is actually going on here. If you’re going to play around with a process that produces non-hypothetical human beings, be smart about it.

Perfect.

 

[Capt MJ]

Thank you. Gotta be some kind of hypothetical stomach-twisting going on here.

Oh - for @sophietunion2

Go see a chaplain. Doesn’t matter if you’re not religious or what faith group. They have confidentiality except in cases where they believe the person they are counseling will do harm to themselves and others. Lay it all out and figure out what is most important: health of mother, health of child.

 

[justdoit19]

Wonderful advice above. The big picture is that everything will work out. The mom in me hopes that a person in this situation will get some guidance, not internalize it all. A chaplain is a great idea. Yes a Plebe is technically an adult, but this is a big thing even for a seasoned adult to go through...

I would expect that a person in this situation would feel perhaps overwhelmed, maybe hopeless. But it will be ok, it will work out, and in your whole life scheme of things, it will be ok. And you wouldn’t be the only person that’s gone through this. There is support and people to help you through it.

 

[Capt MJ]

A Navy officer who worked for me had been a cadet in good standing at a non-Navy SA. His civilian girlfriend became pregnant. He chose to leave USAFA and marry her, because he didn’t want to relinquish parental rights and step away from child support, as well as he was committed to their relationship and planned to marry anyway. He enrolled into an NROTC unit, finished his college degree, and went on to a successful career in the Navy and now the corporate world. She also completed her education.

The point of me sharing this dissimilar story is cadet OP and cadet BF can weigh various options and paths, though I’m not pushing marriage. That is a separate decision which should be arrived at through love and thoughtful discussion when both parties are ready, and it could well be this is not nor ever will be their path.

This is not the end of the world for either party. Commissions and military paths can still be pursued, but the paths may fork. There may be repercussions, but again, not end of world cataclysms. It’s an old, old human story.

 

[Walman888]

A Navy officer who worked for me had been a cadet in good standing at a non-Navy SA. His civilian girlfriend became pregnant. He chose to leave USAFA and marry her, because he didn’t want to relinquish parental rights and step away from child support, as well as he was committed to their relationship and planned to marry anyway. He enrolled into an NROTC unit, finished his college degree, and went on to a successful career in the Navy and now the corporate world. She also completed her education.

The point of me sharing this dissimilar story is cadet OP and cadet BF can weigh various options and paths, though I’m not pushing marriage. That is a separate decision which should be arrived at through love and thoughtful discussion when both parties are ready, and it could well be this is not nor ever will be their path.

This is not the end of the world for either party. Commissions and military paths can still be pursued, but the paths may fork. There may be repercussions, but again, not end of world cataclysms. It’s an old, old human story.

Amen ta that.

 

[USMAROTCFamily]

There was a cadet in my DH's class who got his civilian GF pregnant in Yuk year. He "relinquished" parental rights, but it was common knowledge that they were still a couple throughout the remainder of his career at WP. At every major event she would be there with the baby and he would be gushing over his son. They got married immediately after he graduated. It seems as though this rule, where you can't have a dependent, could be a bit outdated.

 

[Old Navy BGO]

There was a cadet in my DH's class who got his civilian GF pregnant in Yuk year. He "relinquished" parental rights, but it was common knowledge that they were still a couple throughout the remainder of his career at WP. At every major event she would be there with the baby and he would be gushing over his son. They got married immediately after he graduated. It seems as though this rule, where you can't have a dependent, could be a bit outdated.

There are plenty of stories about people getting around the no dependant requirement, some fully legal and some less so. Parental "rights" carry parental "responsibilities", which include child support. There is a good reason for the no dependant requirement, and playing games with the system will eventually catch up. CAPT MJ has some good advice (as always).

 

[kp2001]

There was a cadet in my DH's class who got his civilian GF pregnant in Yuk year. He "relinquished" parental rights, but it was common knowledge that they were still a couple throughout the remainder of his career at WP. At every major event she would be there with the baby and he would be gushing over his son. They got married immediately after he graduated. It seems as though this rule, where you can't have a dependent, could be a bit outdated.

The problem with this is you would potentially have to treat male and female birth parents differently. A female cadet/midshipman becoming pregnant and wanting to have the child is a different situation than a male cadet getting a girlfriend pregnant. In my opinion we should treat them the same; whatever that is. The current rules do a decent job at keeping the playing field level.

 

[THParent]

Hypothetically, if I become intimate with a 4 degree and end up becoming pregnant, how will that pan out? I know I’d get a medical year of absence and give it up for adoption but is that assuming they know about how it came about? Or would I be disenrolled for fraternization?

I must admit that I find myself wondering if this hypothetical situation was resolved. Hypothetically, of course.