Gen McChrystal's relief

[bruno]

No, I am simply taking what the Admiral said at face value, CC is making up his own scenario, libeling the Admiral, to fit his agenda. I have absolutely no information with which to dispute his statement and neither does CC.

Alright folks - now this is getting childish. "he said/she said"; cutting and pasting sentence fragments to make a point (Does the phrase "out of context" ring any bells?) and using word like "libeling" are clearly just inappropriate here.
Anymore posts that hijack the thread trying to prove a point by focusing on the other poster will result in either shutting down the thread or editing along with appropriate disciplinary actions for the poster.

A little discretion and common sense are in order here. Theoretically all of the people on here are reasonably thoughtful, educated and articulate adults. Try and prove that theory here when posting on this and all other threads in the forum.

 

[Mongo]

Pray tell and inform every one how the bar is set lower for the enlisted! Silly me I expected more from an officer than what you just posted.

Well, we can start with the UCMJ and it's standards and punishments. Officers and enlisted are not treated equally.

We can look out in the officer ranks and see how many are there because they were kicked out of boot camp for honor and conduct offenses. And then look in the enlisted ranks and do the same.

We recently had a cheating incident at Quantico and a dozen or so officers were dismissed. We can go down to Paris Island and see how many enlisted have have the same done to them for similiar offenses.

The list goes on. In this particualr thread, in the instilling of good order and discipline, it is more an officer's responsibility than it is of the enlisted who is busy working on helos and life support equipment.

Where is the libel?

I think when one commences discounting what someone actually says and making up their own interpretations, based on no fact, it is libel.

 

[Christcorp]

Actually I do read your posts. Several times usually because the first few times makes no sense and subsequent readings most often offer little more, if any, insight. Also, not sure how I could be accused of misquoting when I simply cut and paste.

The statement to which you question my interpretation seems to support the remainder of your post that if you and Admiral Mullen were together having a beer that he would support your position and tell us that he said what he actually did, just to be politically correct. If I am correct in my assumptions here, this has got to be one of the must absurd arguments I have ever heard. How can you possibly have a clue what his personal beliefs are?

WOW! Sorry that I speak and write the English language and you can't understand it. Maybe I should use more single syllable words to help you out. Sorry, but my posts are generally very clear. They may be long-winded, and your attention span might have problems with it, by my context is quite clear.

Now I'm not 100% sure if Pima is correct that you might be the same Brown Shoe BGO that we've had dealings with in the past. If yes, that would explain a lot. If no, then it's hard to determine your position on certain topics. You've only been registered on here, as Mongo, for a little over a month. Not a lot of time to get to know a person.

You obviously believe in your position. You obviously don't understand my position. So, as for this thread, I think I will respond only to others who may ask me a direct question or wants to know my opinion on something. I don't want to confuse you any further, and I definitely don't want to impede you in getting your opinion stated. So, I'll go my way own way and follow "My calling" and you follow yours.

 

[bruno]

Alright folks - now this is getting childish. "he said/she said"; cutting and pasting sentence fragments to make a point (Does the phrase "out of context" ring any bells?) and using word like "libeling" are clearly just inappropriate here.
Anymore posts that hijack the thread trying to prove a point by focusing on the other poster will result in either shutting down the thread or editing along with appropriate disciplinary actions for the poster.

A little discretion and common sense are in order here. Theoretically all of the people on here are reasonably thoughtful, educated and articulate adults. Try and prove that theory here when posting on this and all other threads in the forum.

Think of this as a "Last Call" - it won't get repeated.

 

[sprog]

Think of this as a "Last Call" - it won't get repeated.

I vote to shut it down.

 

[Pima]

Deep breaths everyone. Having a thread locked does no good to anyone on this forum.

Mods, I am trying to just clarify libel. I am not calling any poster out. To me libel is the malicious intention of spreading lies. CC gave a hypothetical scenario. He never said Mullen was thinking it or had ever stated it.

There is a difference.

Dirty Purples, which is what I am assuming you are referring to regarding the Officers at Quantico have existed for decades. The decision on how it is handled varies from place to place. Heck, back in the late 80's an officer did a Canadian Rodeo at the Club, he got a desk drawer LOR, even though she was higher ranking.

I will agree we need good order, but I disagree with your belief that officer's are superior or their calling is more worthy. I am sorry, but IMHO you owe it to our cadets to illustrate to them that the best officer respects the enlisted and their input. To this day, Bullet and I are still thankful to the crew chiefs, when Bullet was younger he would put his wedding ring in his arm pocket of his flight suit. One day he lost it, it was an Airman who found it and returned it to him after searching the jet. Yes, we bought him a case of beer It was the airman who called me at home to say Bullet would not make it home that night. It was the airman that stood out on the runway in 100 degree weather prepping the jet. Bullet is alive today in part due to them. Never as an officer forget that your success is built on their backs. No Officer worth his salt won't ignore that fact.

I think this thread is dead, sides are chosen and all that is occurring now is visceral emotions about other issues within the military.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm afraid I'm one of those people who expect more from Officers than the Enlisted.

It certainly isn't because Officers are BETTER. Rather, it is because Officers are in positions of leadership that they MUST be held to that higher standard.

It's no different than my expecting more from a senior NCO than from a Private or, believe it or not, a brand-new Butter Bar in some respects.

Where I hold Enlisted to a higher standard than Officers is in the technical aspects of their jobs. I can't speak for the other services, but while I was in the Navy, an EW3 was expected to know the inner workings of the SLQ-32 EW suite a heck of a lot better than the Officer in charge of that division.

 

[Pima]

I understand the opinion you hold Zaph. However, my position is and was that to say they have a "higher calling" is offensive. To imply that enlisted are expected to perform at a lower level is also offensive.

Yes, we all know at the end of the day that Officers will be the ones that call the ball for certain issues, but the intonation of the post was offensive, rude and crass. The posts were not written in a manner that any officer should take pride in if they agreed with the poster...i.e higher calling, inferring enlisted hide facts, they get away with more regarding the system (UCMJ), etc.

To me, it was unbecoming of a military member, not just officers. If you hold officers to higher standards or calling than you should agree, any officer who holds those opinions are probably not effective as a leader. You get more from people when they feel they are valued as an integral part of the community than you do when they feel you are looking down your nose at them.

Like you said there are enlisted members that you respected more than an officer. We should acknowledge that. Do you agree that officers have a higher calling? To me, officers should not say they have a higher calling than the enlisted. There are a hell of a lot of SA grads that do 5 and dive...where is that higher calling Mongo speaks of...could it be the phone calling from Lockheed that they are answering? There are many enlisted members who have the exact same calling as officers and elected to not go to OTS to become an officer for their own personal reasons. It is wrong to make a blanket statement that they care less, they are held at a lower level for UCMJ, or their desire to serve is not the same just because they opted to enlist. I think anyone who believes this "higher calling" BS regarding officer superiority has their own form of bigotry they are denying.

 

[sprog]

I'm afraid I'm one of those people who expect more from Officers than the Enlisted.

It certainly isn't because Officers are BETTER. Rather, it is because Officers are in positions of leadership that they MUST be held to that higher standard.

It's no different than my expecting more from a senior NCO than from a Private or, believe it or not, a brand-new Butter Bar in some respects.

Where I hold Enlisted to a higher standard than Officers is in the technical aspects of their jobs. I can't speak for the other services, but while I was in the Navy, an EW3 was expected to know the inner workings of the SLQ-32 EW suite a heck of a lot better than the Officer in charge of that division.

I think we all agree that people in positions of leadership, be they NCO or officer, are held to a higher standard than those who are subordinate. I think the problem Pima had was with the statement that officers accept a "higher calling" than enlisted guys. That assertion is what she had a problem with, and I have a problem with it too. The way I read it, the assertion equates to the belief that officers are better than the enlisted personnel they lead, which is just plain wrong (and highly offensive to boot). I'm not sure if the poster meant it that way, but it does read that way.

Anyone who serves in the military accepts the same "call" to serve, and enlisted personnel and officers have shed gallons of blood for this nation together. There is no "higher calling" for an officer regarding devotion to duty and service to the nation; however, as they accept a position of responsibility and leadership, officers must also accept that they will be held to a higher standard regarding their personal conduct.

I think the thread really has run its course.

 

[Zaphod]

I understand the opinion you hold Zaph. However, my position is and was that to say they have a "higher calling" is offensive. To imply that enlisted are expected to perform at a lower level is also offensive.

Ah!

Yes. If that is the interpretation, then I agree with you.

The way I read it, the assertion equates to the belief that officers are better than the enlisted personnel they lead, which is just plain wrong (and highly offensive to boot).

Agreed.

Woe betide the poor JO who makes the mistake of thinking that. The lesson will be brief, loud, and exceedingly painful.

 

[Pima]

I agree the thread has run its course. I do feel that the topic of "higher calling" is valuable, but anyone who wants to go down that road should create a thread.

Yes, Sprog, you are 1000% correct, I had an issue with the "higher calling", as if Officers get their calling from God, and enlisted get it from their local priest or rabbi, heck maybe their calling came from their Ipod!

I am now officially done since this thread is way off topic!

 

[Just_A_Mom]

This has gotten absurd. There is so much mucky-muck in here it makes my head spin.

This is Admiral Mullen's view:

Adm. Mullen said he had never before heard McChrystal or his staff members disparage the White House, as they did Vice President Joe Biden, National Security Advisor James Jones and others in the magazine. He added that such dissent from the military threatens the civilian military oversight on which the American military structure was built.
Military officers, Mullen said, ought not criticize the presidents they serve even when they don’t believe their comments will go public.
“We must assure that we are adhering to that in every way — publicly, privately, formally, informally ... even in private discussions,” " he said.

This was taken from the Navy Times article.

Some of you agree and some of you (Christcorp) believe that it is simply politically correct mumbo jumbo.

Two points:
1. Assuming CC is right and Adm Mullen is just talking the talk and not necessarily walking the walk - ugh. I lose repect for the man. As the highest ranking military officers he is duty bound to believe body and soul the message he conveys to his troops.
If he speaks to his troops with a wink and a nod - how can the military function?

2. The big picture - in arguing about who said what and what you really mean......
you all seem to have lost sight of the big picture. Regardless of what McChrystal said in front of the reporter, it is clear that he did not see eye to eye with Special Representative Holbrooke and Ambassador Eikenberry; not to mention Biden and Jones.
McChrystal and Holbrooke and Eikenberry needed to have a working relationship and clearly they did not. I imagine McChrystal was very frustrated. I have all the respect in the world for him but he is not savvy like Petraeus.
The reason he was replaced was not just for his comments but for the critical ad negative environment he allowed to develop with his staff.

Not sure how many of you took the time to read the article but there was only one, maybe two small negative comments directly from McChrystal. Standing alone he probably would have kept his job. Most of the negative comments were from his staff (I think all of them should be fired as well). This was the environment that was condoned by the General.
You don't have to agree with your boss or every aspect of what is required of you to do your job well but...... if you can't put your mind, body and mind into it - regardless of your personal feelings, it's time to find another. In a war, those who are responsible for carrying out missions, at some point, need to set aside their personal feelings and concentrate on the mission.

 

[Christcorp]

Bruno; thanks for giving this subject a 2nd chance to exist. You don't need to close it down. I don't spend a lot of time in this portion of the forum normally, so I have no problem bowing out and moving on to another thread or back to the applicant's forum.

I do want to apologize to the posters in this thread. Obviously I haven't been able to make myself clear. As such, I have caused some tension with people. I can move on to new threads. Life is too short. Anyway, sorry again. Mike...

 

[Pima]

JAM,

I have to ask a question do you believe that Adm. Mullen supports every thing that the military does 100%, and has already agreed his entire career with the Pentagon's decision?

I am willing to bet my life, my kids lives, my pets lives that at one point or another he privately stated he thought the military was making a mistake. I will even double down on it and say he publicly never said he disagreed. Instead, he did what every military member does...salutes sharply and says Yes Sir/Mam.

There is no wink/nod scenario. He has a job, he does his job, but come Saturday afternoon on the deck with another General over a Yueng Ling, doesn't mean he isn't venting about how it played out.

I think you agree military members are no different than corporate civilians. They know what is expected of them, they get the program that they are to fall in line with, but that doesn't mean they agree with it privately. To me the difference is what I said before, the military member salutes sharply and follows out the orders that were given, they accept that they are not to question why.

I have to say I find this interesting because in my conspiracy mind, McCrystal knew what he was doing. He knew he would be relieved. He knew he broke the cardinal rule. His action was well planned out and he knew what the reaction would be, FIRED!

Leave it to internet forums to get into a heated conversation over the action, when both sides agree MCCRYSTAL WAS WRONG!

 

[Mongo]

I had an issue with the "higher calling", as if Officers get their calling from God, and enlisted get it from their local priest or rabbi, heck maybe their calling came from their Ipod!

Pima, I think you have continued this discussion based on what you hoped I meant rather than what I actually meant. Back a while ago, i answered your original question:

I am saying that more is expected of an officer.

Nothing more, nothing less. That is all I am saying, nothing about being more valuable or being better, only that more is expected. Are you attempting to take the definition of 'calling' down the same road you took 'active duty' and 'legacy'? I used the term originally, please allow my explanation.

 

[scoutpilot]

Pima, I think you have continued this discussion based on what you hoped I meant rather than what I actually meant.

Well said!

 

[Zaphod]

I have to say I find this interesting because in my conspiracy mind, McCrystal knew what he was doing. He knew he would be relieved. He knew he broke the cardinal rule. His action was well planned out and he knew what the reaction would be, FIRED!

It really does open up all kinds of possibilities, doesn't it?

Could it be that he wasn't getting his way, so he committed career suicide?

Could it be that he believed the only way to get the troops what they needed was to commit career suicide?

Could it be that he's pulling a political stunt to set himself up as a Democrat Presidential candidate against Obama in 2012?

Could it be he was just plain sick of the whole thing and wanted to go home?

Man, to be a fly on the wall on the INSIDE of his head.

 

[Pima]

I have great respect for our military leaders. I don't believe you get to McCrystal's rank without understanding how to navigate the potholes in the road and at his level I just can't bite off that this was an "I didn't realize" moment, especially since he briefed the press for the Pentagon back in 02-03. He knows the system of how words can be twisted and taken out of context.

I just can't walk down the path that he didn't know the hit his career would take by being so open to the RS. I think he fell on his sword for a reason.

I will agree I don't know what the reason was and all of your scenarios are very plausible, except the 12 dem nom for President, but maybe he is thinking of following Sestak's footsteps?!?


Mongo,

I have no problem with accepting that you did not mean any offense with the "higher calling" comment. You have corrected your statement to state

I am saying that more is expected of an officer.

Sorry, but as I have stated that too is offensive and crass. Are the enlisted not expected to lay down their lives? Are they not expected to be honorable and live by a code of ethics? Are they not expected to work as hard? Find me a flier working on Xmas Eve stateside! Our enlisted members are expected to give 100%. As I stated earlier, yes, they don't call the ball like the Wing King, but as Zaphod stated we need to put everything in perspective. Many officers would trust their NCOIC with their lives over the newly minted Lt.

Expectations are not based purely on rank, they are also based on experience.

Again, this is an internet forum, my legacy comment like your calling comment can easily be misconstrued. It is only when we take deep breaths, can we see that what we perceive was not intended. I am sure you do not believe the enlisted are not as worthy as officers, I am sure you believe they are an integral part of the military that is needed to be successful. However, as I just stated in my previous paragraph, your position can be seen as pompous, and divisive among the officer/enlisted ranks. This debate can be solved very easily, just say that every officer needs to appreciate and respect the enlisted member. No ***** footing, no inuendo, no circumventing. Tell our young cadets that they should never think the enlisted are expected to perform at a lower level or perception than an officer. I know right now 4 parents who served in the enlisted ranks that have kids at the SA's. Can you not see how your comment is smacking their parents. I know of 2 cadets that are at the SA's who came from the enlisted side. I truly hope you can see, just like my legacy comment, can create a negative image of you that you never intended.

 

[Zaphod]

I will agree I don't know what the reason was and all of your scenarios are very plausible, except the 12 dem nom for President, but maybe he is thinking of following Sestak's footsteps?!?

Let's assume that's true.

Why commit career suicide? What would it gain him, especially if he runs as a Dem and went against a Dem. If a Republican were in office I'd be more inclined to accept that scenario.

Oh, well. We'll see soon enough, I guess.

 

[Pima]

Does anyone know his HOR?

I actually disagree, currently more people are Independents, and there is the anti-Washington philosophy. He would be seen by the middle of the road voters as the one that STOOD UP. He would be seen by the Repubs as the officer who played Don Quixote.

That being said I don't think he has political aspirations. I think he is going to go the way of Schwarzkopf or Shelsinki...Public speaking tour of 30K a pop here I am come!

I just think he questioned why he was doing this anymore. I think he committed military suicide knowing that he was not committing after military career suicide.

I believe everyone who has served in the military does hit a point where they say ENOUGH, I WANT OUT. This can happen at 5, 10, 20, 30 yrs., but the one thing I have seen in common from those that OPT to leave, is one day they wake up and realize as much as they love their country and the military, they just don't have it in them anymore. Sometimes, it is a life altering family moment, sometimes it is like our grandparents when they realize they are the last ones left. Sometimes, they wake up and say this is not my service anymore.

None of us know why he said what he said, I choose to believe that in his mind he thought that his brutally honest remarks would assist in the long run for the troops and he knew by officially saying it his career was over. Silly, but that is me, I can get that his intention was pure, his delivery was poor.