GPA vs. Standardized Tests

[hopefulmom182]

Where (which SA portal?) are you seeing that only English scores are being recorded?

In both the USNA and USMMA portals, only my son's English and Math ACT scores are showing. This is good for him. He got a 35 in English and only a 30 in Reading. As a result, it would be noticeable if they averaged English/Reading. Further, in the NROTC application, we were instructed to provide English score for the English/Reading ACT score.

 

[THmom]

In both the USNA and USMMA portals, only my son's English and Math ACT scores are showing. This is good for him. He got a 35 in English and only a 30 in Reading. As a result, it would be noticeable if they averaged English/Reading. Further, in the NROTC application, we were instructed to provide English score for the English/Reading ACT score.

WOW! That’s great! My DS is applying to USAFA, USMA, USCGA, and AROTC, and I hadn’t seen that. It would be better for him, too, as his English was much stronger than Reading, although he’s retaking next weekend. Oh, and his Math is better than his Science. Maybe the other academies favor the E and M without saying it?! Hope so.

 

[franknd]

But when the school doesn’t rank, ranking is taken from test scores. i.e., So 1600 top 1%. 1550 top 1%. ACT 34-36, top 1%. Same ranking.

I have never heard this, and it seems very significant to me. So are you implying that the SAT percentile is being used as a proxy for class rank across the board when the HS doesn't rank? IOW, if your SAT is 95th percentile for all test-takers, then your class rank is imputed to be the same if your school doesn't rank? Or, has USCGA derived its own SAT/class rank correlation? If this is so, then it seems like SAT/ACT is effectively 100% of the academic portion of WCS in such cases.

 

[franknd]

Found this little gem online. Also, a lot more valuable information with the link provided. All credit goes to the source. https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR700/RR744/RAND_RR744.pdf

I realize this is for USAFA but in terms of how things are weighted, there has to be some sort of similarity.

This was very interesting. They found that USAFA's "selection panel" score - which is a number that accounts for the ALO evaluation, writing sample, teacher evaluation, recommendations, and physical fitness test - forming 20 percent of the applicant's overall admission score was NEGATIVELY correlated with success at the Academy. They recommended eliminating it and increasing reliance on academic measures by an extra 15 percent and leadership measures by an extra 5 percent, resulting in a 75/25 mixture. Interesting (but not surprising to me actually) that interviews and recommendations are counterproductive according to the analysis.

 

[CrewDad]

When schools offer class rank to admissions, pretty sure they will take that info and use it. When not given, past practice has been to use ACT SAT percentile which is a non subjective national ranking data. Probably the most reliable objective ranking data. School GPA, Honors, AP, type of classes taken, and school profile are also used to evaluate the quality of the program, relative to candidates in the same region.

SAs and colleges have National database of top quality schools that are designated as Blue Ribbon Schools by the U.S. Dept of Education. These are the National best performing schools. Also SAs have database of nationally recognized STEM, Magnet Schools, private boarding schools. Specialized STEM and Magnet Schools are not exclusive to the wealthy and privileged, but available to anyone best prepared to enter such programs within their home cities. Students take special exams open to all students in their cities or districts to gain admissions. Many are State funded so they are tuition free. Some children travel 4 hours a day to and from middle school and high school everyday. I did this in high school taking subways and buses 4 hours a day so I can attend the best high school in NYC. This type of sacrifice and dedication are well noted by SAs and colleges. There are about 500 or more of these schools around the country and internationally. If your school ranks in the best 100 in the U.S. program, then your child will certainly get a boost in WCS just by attending a school in this category. I have seen this first hand from my DS and myself and many personal friends and families around me. And this practice will remain the same when evaluating school quality and student quality in competitive programs. Candidates from these schools most likely receive special upgrade in WCS Academic portion. Nevertheless, for now ACT/SAT trumps academic portion of WCS. So please counsel your children to do well on ACT/SAT.

 

[THmom]

This was very interesting. They found that USAFA's "selection panel" score - which is a number that accounts for the ALO evaluation, writing sample, teacher evaluation, recommendations, and physical fitness test - forming 20 percent of the applicant's overall admission score was NEGATIVELY correlated with success at the Academy. They recommended eliminating it and increasing reliance on academic measures by an extra 15 percent and leadership measures by an extra 5 percent, resulting in a 75/25 mixture. Interesting (but not surprising to me actually) that interviews and recommendations are counterproductive according to the analysis.

Here’s a screenshot of what @HCopter called my attention to last month. However, USAFA has changed their website, and I can’t seem to find it again! Interesting that they moved in the opposite direction of the RAND suggestions. And, I will add that this new USAFA website says the CFA is pass/fail. “Although the CFA is pass-fail, it is imperative that you perform to the best of your ability on each of these events; failure can disqualify you in the application process.”

 

[franknd]

Also SAs have database of nationally recognized STEM, Magnet Schools, private boarding schools. Specialized STEM and Magnet Schools are not exclusive to the wealthy and privileged, but available to anyone best prepared to enter such programs within their home cities. . . . This type of sacrifice and dedication are well noted by SAs and colleges. There are about 500 or more of these schools around the country and internationally.

Thank you again. I didn't know that they knew all of this and take it in to account. Nobody told us that, and of course I've been wondering. When we visited, the only thing they mentioned in this regard during the presentation was "class rank." The implication was that all schools were basically the same. I couldn't imagine that was an accurate representation of what truly happened.

 

[CrewDad]

Recruiting and admissions are very sophisticated process. And it is also a very costly and one of the most important activities at all colleges and schools. So they do not change their process every year nor every few years. Instead, they incorporate what actions maybe necessary to add to already proven process.

The RAND Report is nice to reference and it gives a nice perspective to many who do not have access to the inside. But it is also old and perhaps due for another round of evaluation in the next 5-10 years. What changes every 4 years is the rising test scores and applicants. It is apparent candidates have better access to tools and academy information, with better knowledge of Academies places in our society and their prestigious college programs, to better prepare candidates journeys.

Our children and parents are much better informed and prepared than 20 years ago. And exponentially more than 40 years ago when I started my journey.

 

[StPaulDad]

I'm not entirely certain that specific USMA or USAFA standards are relevant here. The academies are not in lockstep on a lot of matters: requiring nominations, PFE vs CFA, color blindness standards and who knows what else. Senior site members can speak up with more details, but the RAND report was about West Point (and a long time ago), and WCS is not from New London.

Take a good look at this presentation to the Admissions Partners this fall:

It contains a ton of information, ranging from a very specific enforcement of the minimum height requirement this year to the specific numbers they expect to allocate in each stage of the process to a bunch of boilerplate from last year's slide deck. There are a few very specific things to note.
- There is no mention of class rank anywhere in this, verbally or on the slides.
- For testing they say you cannot have any testing accommodations and the writing sections are optional. But they do not mention individual sections of the ACT, and for the SAT they mention Critical Reading and Math. However in the class profile section they do provide scores from other sections.
- In the 2018 version of this he used the same slide from 13:00 and actually said "These are listed in order of significance" and then shows academics (Grades, test scores, stem classes) followed by leadership, then extra-curriculars, then essays, then letters of rec and PFE.
- There is also a slide titled Application Hints at 26:30. These include Use the blank space, Know your admissions officer, Provide monthly updates, Visit, and then a few others. Lots of interesting examples (You say you want to fly, but what frame, what mission? How have you aligned your schooling to achieve this?) and how they watch to see who is driving the process (student or kid).
- In the Q&A he mentions that as soon as the app has the transcript and a test score, and they meet a minimum standard, the app is flagged and the DODMERB exam notification is sent.

Anyway, I am not as confident that many of the things mentioned above are entirely true at CGA. Maybe reach out to Objee for some clarification.

EDIT: I'm sure there is a certain amount of other work that goes into evaluating school quality and the like, but from the perspective of things applicants can affect there are some items that are clearly not part of the criteria.

 

[franknd]

- There is no mention of class rank anywhere in this, verbally or on the slides.

We went to an admissions brief last Spring when we visited the CGA and the AO who gave the brief specifically discussed "class rank," to the point of saying that if a school didn't give a rank they would nevertheless cajole a ranking out of the school, or words to that effect. There was no confusion on the point.
No doubt there are specific differences among all the service academies, but I would be surprised if general issues -- like class rank and giving context to GPAs, for example, or no SAT/ACT accommodations -- aren't treated similarly.
Also, the RAND USAFA study dealt with the admissions process on the whole and areas in which USAFA could potentially improve its selection process; it didn't concern class rank.

 

[bsgjgidjdnue]

Only English and Math sections of ACT are considered by the Navy and Coast Guard. Those scores are then internally calibrated to compare with SAT English and Math candidates. It appears only the Navy and CG are doing this across Academies and NROTC candidates. ACT takers get smaller boost if done well as ACT is considered slightly more difficult than SAT. Although SAT has recently made its test very similar to ACT.