H Zj Res 59 2014 Federal Budget

earn 1 (ûrn)
tr.v. earned, earn·ing, earns
1. To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.

2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.

3. To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.


Lits, by your definition, you don't "earn" your paycheck either then. You are simply promised it, right?

You've agreed to perform a job in exchange for compensation package paid mostly in the future (next pay period, next year bonus, next decade stock option, etc). So if your employer decides this month not to provide part of that agreed upon compensation (oh say... your paycheck?), then I'm sure you will take your own medicine and say "Oh well, it's just a broken promise". Right?


Oh, I think service members have earned their paychecks. If I promise them pretty pink ponies, and then don't give it to them, I broke a promise, but that doesn't mean they EARNED the pretty pink ponies.

I get paid a salary. Service members get paid a salary. I place SOME of that pay into a 401(k) that, with varying degrees of risk, increases over the years. If I retire (well after my 40s) I have money in that 401(k). That money is based on what I put in, not on a federal government promise.

At the same time, to get returns, there's risk. If the markets absolutely tank, I could lose that money.

I 100% agree service members earn their pay. They provide dedicated service which is rewarded. I don't agree a flat percentage of a past salary for retirement is "earned". It's certainly a perk. And it was certainly promised. But like folks who invest with 401(k)s, there is risk, maybe not from the markets, but from a fickle, every-changing and fairly dysfunctional federal government.

Are there other things that need to be cut? Yep. Are members of the military untouchable? I think we're seeing the answer to that.

It will be VERY interesting in the future, for all my buddies on Facebook who laughed off the general reservations of the private sector regarding the Affordable Care Act, to see how long service members DON'T need to deal with their own health insurance. I'm not entirely convinced Tricare is off the table in the future. It might be a slow process, but I'd be interested to see if they start taking little bites out of it.
 
earn 1 (ûrn)
tr.v. earned, earn·ing, earns
1. To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.

2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.

3. To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.


Lits, by your definition, you don't "earn" your paycheck either then. You are simply promised it, right?

You've agreed to perform a job in exchange for compensation package paid mostly in the future (next pay period, next year bonus, next decade stock option, etc). So if your employer decides this month not to provide part of that agreed upon compensation (oh say... your paycheck?), then I'm sure you will take your own medicine and say "Oh well, it's just a broken promise". Right?

Gotta agree with MedB here.
 
Like it or not, this is a taste of things to come. We have already seen in pension and retiree health benefits at the municipal level. This nation simply cannot support a scheme of "defined" pensions with health benefits starting after only 20-25 years of earning. Look at Greece!

I appreciate the sacrifice made by members of the military, the same as I appreciate the sacrifices of Detroit Policemen and Firefighters whose cuts will be much more draconian than those of Veterans.

There are much worse schemes that have come into the news recently, at the state and muni level in California, NJ, Illinois. More will come to light as insolvencies grow.

At some point, the entire nation will come to grips with the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare. There will be adjustments i.e. taxing more earned income, taxing more of the benefits, means testing, or my personal favorite--raise the eligibility age by one month per year for the next 24 years. I'm 57 and would volunteer to have mine raised by 2 months per year. In fact we should have done this years ago.

Pick your poison. It's on the way.
 
It rolls uphill, in this case. First small towns and municipalities have issues with obligations, and unfunded liabilities. These communities can't print their own money. And as states try to bail out these smaller communities, they begin to feel the pressure to. In addition to trying to minimize the damage at the local level, states have their own problems that mirror issues in their communities. States start to slip.

This is a tremor of a larger issue. I don't think it's going away. I just worry about how bad the actual quake is.
 
At some point, the entire nation will come to grips with the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare. There will be adjustments i.e. taxing more earned income, taxing more of the benefits, means testing, or my personal favorite--raise the eligibility age by one month per year for the next 24 years. I'm 57 and would volunteer to have mine raised by 2 months per year. In fact we should have done this years ago.

Pick your poison. It's on the way.
I am not crazy about this idea. As a professional it works for me as it apparently does for you.

How about the manual laborer, the guy that puts the roof on your house, hangs drywall, agricultural worker, etc. Those jobs become tough or impossible as one ages. I would prefer to see the amount gradually reduced for those of us that still have some years to go before we become eligible.
 
I agree that there is a general problem with unfunded liabilities and the macro issue of the ever increasing disparity between those paying in vs those taking payouts. That simply needs to be addressed, period. The issue is how to do so fairly...

Let's take a non-military example that is slightly less emotional... My wife is a teacher. Her school uses the traditional pay model of massively underpaying teachers early in their careers (try being a new teacher sometime if you don't believe it). However, they are overpayed late in their careers and probably into retirement; and enjoy automatic raises regardless of performance. It's a ridiculously broken system.

So how do you fix it fairly?

Tell those teachers that are already at top-step or retired that they are getting a paycut? What about those who are just now getting to the place where the increased pay balances out the years of below average pay?

Tell those teachers who are early in their careers they are getting a pay RAISE now, but will be certainly have much smaller raises and retirement later. And leave senior teachers/retirees alone?

This is the same issue with military retirement benefits... The reality is that given the risks/hardships, our AD military (and families) will NOT be paid fairly if you take away key parts of the package such as retirement et al. So do you raise the base pay to compensate them earlier in their careers? Or do you "balance" things on the back of those that kept their end of the bargain and served faithfully for mediocre pay but a promise of a later payoff, by breaking faith with them and not honoring our contract/bargain?
 
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This is the same issue with military retirement benefits... The reality is that given the risks/hardships, our AD military (and families) will NOT be paid fairly if you take away key parts of the package such as retirement et al. So do you raise the base pay to compensate them earlier in their careers? Or do you "balance" things on the back of those that kept their end of the bargain and served faithfully for mediocre pay but a promise of a later payoff, by breaking faith with them and not honoring our contract/bargain?

I think, ultimately, the answer is yes. Raise the earlier base pay and put them on defined contribution plans. The older folks will need to take some form of haircut. A system where the older you are the less of a haircut you take seems reasonable. Everyone will have to sacrifice, unfortunately. If this had been done years ago, when it should have been done, it would be far easier. The longer we wait the more difficult it will be for everyone.

And it's a shame it's come to this. But the system of 20 and out dates back over 2000 years. I think its time we update it, don't you?
 
All thoughtful comments. It's a pity that CNN, MSNBC, Fox, et. al. can't set up a discussion like this.

Everyone of us on this thread has said we are willing to give up something, maybe more than our "fair share". I believe that most folks believe the same, but are concerned about the overall equity of the solution.

I am a glass half-full guy. I always assume there's a pony somewhere in that pile of horse manure. In that vein, I hope that the budget agreement is a step in the right direction. Maybe the increase in user TSA fees (anathema to the anti-tax crowd) can develop into an elimination of carried interest and other tax loopholes. Maybe a reduction in retirement benefits for Federal Employees and Veterans (anathema to Labor Unions) will lead to a better understanding of the real cost of employment and a rationalization of pay and benefits.

Although the hits are small and limited in a macro sense, each side is being dinged. There is so much low hanging fruit and so little courage to pick it.

On a side note, for all Obamacare's faults, at the end of the day, everyone will know how much each of our visits to the Doc, each MRI, each $5 Tylenol in the hospital actually cost. From that point, we can have an informed
discussion about how to reduce and apportion those costs.
 
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A defined contribution plan is something like a 75% cut in retirement benefits over the pension package offered. Setting aside the arguments of fairness, worthiness, etc., the affect on mid level retention is not something to be ignored. You can't just hire a senior captain or major from outside to be a line officer. There hasn't been a good study, that I've seen, that outlines a plan that can make such a massive retirement benefit cut and expect to retain personnel that are needed. If someone knows of one, I'm all ears.
 
A defined contribution plan is something like a 75% cut in retirement benefits over the pension package offered. Setting aside the arguments of fairness, worthiness, etc., the affect on mid level retention is not something to be ignored. You can't just hire a senior captain or major from outside to be a line officer. There hasn't been a good study, that I've seen, that outlines a plan that can make such a massive retirement benefit cut and expect to retain personnel that are needed. If someone knows of one, I'm all ears.

Not sure how you can make that statement without a plan defined. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and state that if they structure it like a typical 401K, you may be right. But if that were the case then I would expect them to structure it differently, perhaps by changing how they match, or even match 2 for 1 or something. You are definitely correct that if it's not sturctured properly we can kiss our military goodbye because no one will sign up or stay.
 
If designed like a 401K, it is a massive cut. Modifying the contribution to make it less of a cut still results in high costs and may not even solve the problem.

We should really be asking better questions. Is retirement supposed to be equitable for service? Is the purpose to retain who we want longer? Why do what we do. A good review was done by RAND: http://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR376.html

From this report, I got the general feeling: retirement, while a reward for service to the nation, is also meant to retain and shape the force how we need it. Over and over, "reform" fails, not just because of resistance to cutting benefit, but it was deemed necessary to maintain the force structure. If the AF is having difficulty retaining fighter pilots with a $225K bonus AND "cushy" retirement, what will happen without a DB retirement plan?

Are there options that are potentially effective in shaping the force as well or better? Are they also potentially more equitable as well without imposing large cuts on any one group or siphoning money to one group. I see a DC plan, as modeled like a 401K, largely siphoning money from retirees to junior officers O1-O4 who won't stay to retirement. Junior enlisted are largely unable to contribute or not provided effective information to contribute to a 401K style plan that would largely benefit them in the long run whereas CGOs and O4s will have the resources to really be the winners.

The RAND review had some good proposals. One example is begin vesting at 10 years with pension deferred to retirement age (~62). Don't provide immediate pension benefits until 25 or 30 years. They suggested this might force shape better than a 20-year defined vesting as far as retaining the groups they want (8-12 year cohort), remove the perverse incentive/system that makes undesirable O4s hard to separate involuntarily at the 15+ mark, and provide more equity to those who put in hard time (10+ years) without appreciably ratcheting up future costs.

Personally, I think the priority should be force shaping and then equity. The military isn't a jobs program so retirement benefits should be based on national security need and what force shaping that requires.
 
A defined contribution plan is something like a 75% cut in retirement benefits over the pension package offered. Setting aside the arguments of fairness, worthiness, etc., the affect on mid level retention is not something to be ignored. You can't just hire a senior captain or major from outside to be a line officer. There hasn't been a good study, that I've seen, that outlines a plan that can make such a massive retirement benefit cut and expect to retain personnel that are needed. If someone knows of one, I'm all ears.

Not sure how you can make that statement without a plan defined. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and state that if they structure it like a typical 401K, you may be right. But if that were the case then I would expect them to structure it differently, perhaps by changing how they match, or even match 2 for 1 or something. You are definitely correct that if it's not sturctured properly we can kiss our military goodbye because no one will sign up or stay.

If designed like a 401K, it is a massive cut. Modifying the contribution to make it less of a cut still results in high costs and may not even solve the problem.

We should really be asking better questions. Is retirement supposed to be equitable for service? Is the purpose to retain who we want longer? Why do what we do. A good review was done by RAND: http://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR376.html

From this report, I got the general feeling: retirement, while a reward for service to the nation, is also meant to retain and shape the force how we need it. Over and over, "reform" fails, not just because of resistance to cutting benefit, but it was deemed necessary to maintain the force structure. If the AF is having difficulty retaining fighter pilots with a $225K bonus AND "cushy" retirement, what will happen without a DB retirement plan?

Are there options that are potentially effective in shaping the force as well or better? Are they also potentially more equitable as well without imposing large cuts on any one group or siphoning money to one group. I see a DC plan, as modeled like a 401K, largely siphoning money from retirees to junior officers O1-O4 who won't stay to retirement. Junior enlisted are largely unable to contribute or not provided effective information to contribute to a 401K style plan that would largely benefit them in the long run whereas CGOs and O4s will have the resources to really be the winners.

The RAND review had some good proposals. One example is begin vesting at 10 years with pension deferred to retirement age (~62). Don't provide immediate pension benefits until 25 or 30 years. They suggested this might force shape better than a 20-year defined vesting as far as retaining the groups they want (8-12 year cohort), remove the perverse incentive/system that makes undesirable O4s hard to separate involuntarily at the 15+ mark, and provide more equity to those who put in hard time (10+ years) without appreciably ratcheting up future costs.

Personally, I think the priority should be force shaping and then equity. The military isn't a jobs program so retirement benefits should be based on national security need and what force shaping that requires.

A 401k is only a cut if you significantly cut the amount of funding going into the overall plan. And that depends upon the investment options available.

IIRC the accounting for federal government pensions generally consider the funding needed in today's dollars invested in government securities.

Having lived in a generation that started its working career with defined benefit plans that have been ended/modified/etc. to the point where the first half of my "retirement" amounts to chump change as a percentage of my income. The world changed a lot during my life. I've adjusted accordingly, but would love to have had the financial options available to kids today when I was starting out.

The "promise" of a defined benefit pensions that is truly reserved for a percentage of those starting a career is a bad piece of public policy, if having citizens with secure retirements (and we all know that Social Security is NOT a soundly funded retirement "insurance" - it is not a pension if you look at how the benefits are awarded) is a societal goal.

It is the "magical thinking" about the risks that is why we now have ACA (we are requiring participation in the health insurance system). A couple of generations ago the magical thinking about banking and investments and the subsequent depression brought us Social Security as a minimal insurance against poverty in old age (hence my comment above).

We have a certain segment of the American population that has the strong "rugged individual" mentality that wants the government to leave them alone and they will take care of their own medical issues, retirement planning, etc. By an large many of these folks do an excellent job at this, buying appropriate health/life insurance and saving for their old age and investing those funds prudently.

However, we have (and always have had) a larger segment of the population who do not take care of their lives as carefully. They take more risks either out of "magical thinking" or out of sheer ignorance (our schools do a poor job of educating our youth about finances, but for some reason our schools don't want to tell kids their parents are financial morons). They don't buy health insurance until they can't. They don't pay themselves first. They don't understand that capitalism rewards CAPITAL, not labor and the only way to generate income in your old age is to acquire capital (not useless stuff to amuse ourselves with).

The Federal Government is one of the few institutions that CAN afford a defined benefit plan, but because of the way politics plays, it cannot seem to adequately fund them because of "other priorities". So perhaps it is best that the Federal Government change its pensions to 401k type plan. At least those who don't server 20 years in the military or 30 in another agency get something decent out the back end.

And the idiots out there who think 10% of salary is an adequate retirement savings, need to have their heads examined. The actual number given todays longer lifespans and increasing number of years where one is not physically/cognitively able to work is closer to 20%. And given the hard physical toll a military life takes on one's career, the government should engineer compensation to that there is more than that set aside for a service member's retirement.

And that retirement money should not be available for use by "able-bodied" people until they are of "retirement age". So many folks sack their 401k accounts for transitory reasons - "didn't have emergency fund when they got laid off" etc. that we as a society have to manage the behavior of the "grasshoppers" so that they have something to eat when winter comes.

I understand the resentment by those "rugged individuals", but the reality on the ground is that a stable society will not stay stable when large number of grasshoppers ultimately end up raiding the ants' stockpile, which will eventually happen if grasshoppers are left to their own devices.

And perhaps with a little education and some actual funding that they see with their names on it, they may learn to be ants in a few generations. And capitalism with have more capitalists.

My $.02...
 
And the idiots out there who think 10% of salary is an adequate retirement savings, need to have their heads examined. The actual number given todays longer lifespans and increasing number of years where one is not physically/cognitively able to work is closer to 20%. And given the hard physical toll a military life takes on one's career, the government should engineer compensation to that there is more than that set aside for a service member's retirement.

Let service members contribute to their 401(k) and have their employer match to a certain amount. Once they leave, at whatever age that is, they can combine it with a future 401(k). They have "skin" in their retirement game too. Instead of "riding it to 20 years" they're investing in whatever their 401(k) is in. If they get out at 10, it's there, 30.... still there. The private sector does it.... the federal government does it..... why is the military different?
 
Interesting thoughts from all. Makes me believe that these problems we face can be solved. If only we could throw the idiots out and get some citizen legislators in there. I'd vote for all you folks. You obviously have the ability to think at least somewhat dispassionately about it, and that's what's needed.

Ahhh... and Santa is bringing me a unicorn for Christmas! :rolleyes:
 
I say no 401K type program - at least not how they're governed now. The last thing we need to do is route more money to the gamblers on Wall Street. (I think that 401k's have hurt more than they've helped in that the risk has been transferred from the company to the employee. So companies have short term goals (write a check for this month's 401K match and make a quarterly profit) rather than a long term obligation - which leads to reinvestment and innovation.)

Public service is doing what the people want done and we need to pay fairly AND pay for retirement. It's the cost of keeping us safe (and the roads paved, and our kids educated, etc.)
 
I say no 401K type program - at least not how they're governed now. The last thing we need to do is route more money to the gamblers on Wall Street. (I think that 401k's have hurt more than they've helped in that the risk has been transferred from the company to the employee. So companies have short term goals (write a check for this month's 401K match and make a quarterly profit) rather than a long term obligation - which leads to reinvestment and innovation.)

Public service is doing what the people want done and we need to pay fairly AND pay for retirement. It's the cost of keeping us safe (and the roads paved, and our kids educated, etc.)

Yeah, I don't know about that. First, the traders aren't on Wall Street, generally, working on your 401(k). Second historically, those investments have performed FAR better than savings.

Where it hurts is being 60 and coming across a 2008 situation, and then dumping it all (because if you didn't panic you still have more now than you did then.)

On the other side of that, I trust the combined intelligence of the market and an invisible hand FAR more than I do Nanny Sam. I trust the trend of a global market, even with its ups and downs more than a federal government that can't pass a budget and refuses to tackle things like Social Security. This bill is a prime example of why you don't want your eggs in a federal basket.
 
So companies have short term goals (write a check for this month's 401K match and make a quarterly profit) rather than a long term obligation - which leads to reinvestment and innovation.)

This confuses me. A long term obligation is a liability. Paying out pensions for retired members of a company, all of whom are no longer productive, is a liability.

And liabilities, especially growing, long-term ones don't promote reinvestment or innovation. They SUCK resources. Social Security is hard leading to reinvestment or innovation. It contributes to a $60 trillion liability that makes the United States weaker.
 
I say no 401K type program - at least not how they're governed now. The last thing we need to do is route more money to the gamblers on Wall Street. (I think that 401k's have hurt more than they've helped in that the risk has been transferred from the company to the employee. So companies have short term goals (write a check for this month's 401K match and make a quarterly profit) rather than a long term obligation - which leads to reinvestment and innovation.)

Public service is doing what the people want done and we need to pay fairly AND pay for retirement. It's the cost of keeping us safe (and the roads paved, and our kids educated, etc.)

Perhaps the military should just adopt the current federal retirement system - vested after five years, different minimum retirement age than civilian employees (for most federal employees, they have to serve 30 years and have minimum retirement age of 56 to 57), matching contribution to TSP (401K).
The current military retirement system doesn't care take of everyone. It ignores anyone that doesn't serve 20 years. The retirement pay is not enough to "retire" and doesn't focus military members to save separately.

We can have a separate discussion on about the gamblers of Wall Street, but some basic information and research, we can minimize our exposure to the gamblers of Wall Street. Not sure if I agree that most companies are focused on "short term goals," as many companies have been in existence and profitable for a long time.
 
...doesn't focus military members to save separately.

This is the inherent and insidious effect of defined benefit pension plans, paid for health insurance, Social Security. The benefit is expected without understanding the actual cost.

The same could be said of those who demand services (good roads, good schools, strong national defense) which are paid for by the taxes they balk at paying or expect others to pay.
 
This is the inherent and insidious effect of defined benefit pension plans, paid for health insurance, Social Security. The benefit is expected without understanding the actual cost.

Is the expectation of the benefit reasonable? I think it is ironic as to after in 20 + years in the military serving the country to just turn around say don't touch my benefits until the you (Congress/government) cut other programs first. Our country faces more and more challenges. Things will get worse, not likely better.

Who needs to understand the cost? Military members, no. Congress, yes, but they will just kick the can down the road and ultimately average tax payers will be holding the bag. And average tax payers don't understand the cost.

Folks for all for supporting the troops, but not sure how many folks are for raising taxes to support the troops.
 
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