Happy Star of the West Day

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by CitadelN88, Jan 9, 2019 at 9:24 AM.

  1. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

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  2. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 3:15 PM
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  3. Tbpxece

    Tbpxece Member

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    Hey now, I never said liberal. :)

    Thanks for providing the additional links.

    Again, not interested in a fight. Just looking for a real source for those hard numbers as I hadn't heard that before. I would ask the same from someone that posts a link to Fox News, Breitbart, or whatever other right-leaning sites are out there. There is a ton of disinformation on blogs that get confused with truth, and then folks start citing blogs instead of the original source, and then it all falls apart under scrutiny-- not good.

    Those two claims were very specific claims, and if one is going to toss something out there like that, it should be easy to back it up within 5 minutes of looking-- something I couldn't do, and was hoping @Nemo567 had it on-hand.

    Thanks again-- back to work for me.
     
  4. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

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    And that's about all the time it took. While it takes less then 5 minutes to find these books and reference material, it takes much longer to actually read them. While I have read quite a few I admit I have not read them all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 3:18 PM
  5. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

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    Exactly who's asking for a fight? Sources were asked for, sources were given. All that was asked was if you had other sources, not sure how that constitutes a fight, sound more like an invitation to a conversation, but it's ok not to be interested.
     
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  6. Pickering2019

    Pickering2019 ArmyBrat2000

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    Why do the Yankees insist on attacking are southern culture? The Civil War was fought by poor white men from both sides of the mason dixon line. Poor southern men couldn't afford slaves so why would they fight to keep them? It was all about state rights and people like Abraham Lincoln who used the slaves as a political tool to undermine southern diplomacy in Europe. This crap about southern men staying on the yankees side is bologna. Because not many men will go over to the enemies side to kill their family members.
     
  7. Pickering2019

    Pickering2019 ArmyBrat2000

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    I also want to point out that most of the former slaves stayed in the south or they moved to the north. Just to find the northerners were more bigoted then the southerners so they moved back to the south. The North won so they are allowed to write their lying history! But don't come down here with that because most of us southerners will remember the true history when we enter a graveyard and see are family name on a grave with a little Confederate battle flag planted next to it.
     
  8. Nemo567

    Nemo567 Member

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    This pretty much all false. The war was about protecting the institution of slavery. If you don't believe me, go back and read the Declaration of Immediate Causes and the other documents where the Southern states stated the reasons for succession. For example, South Carolina wrote the reason for succession was "increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of Slavery."

    There are also plenty of reasons Southerners who didn't individually own slave would fight for the Confederacy.

    Well I have provided a source in this thread that shows otherwise. If you disagree go ahead and provide a source that shows I'm wrong.
     
  9. Hurricane12

    Hurricane12 USNA 2012 5-Year Member

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    Poor white men were tricked into fighting a rich white man's war because they'd spent a century being told that race mattered more than economic class. Saying the Civil War was about "states rights" is a falsehood. Without slavery there is no Civil War. To me the Civil War is partially so sad because the cause was so dumb. The fetishization of their minuscule participation in that war by the southern military academies has consequently always seemed bizarre to me. Similarly why so many military bases are named after confederate generals. Whatever their competence, they fought a losing war for a terrible cause. It's not like we named a base in Germany after Rommel.

    There's ugliness in the north for sure...many northerners feared that the abolition of slavery would have negative economic effects (competition for labor, higher prices for southern raw goods), the military leadership was often hampered by incompetence, and the Elmira prison camp.
    There's a lot I'm sure you did not learn from your history as well: the Richmond breadriots, how confederate desertion rates skyrocketed as the war went on, and the Fort Pillow massacre to name a few.
    Try opening your eyes beyond "Southern Culture" and recognizing that its possible that a generation suffered and died for no good reason at all.
     
  10. Nemo567

    Nemo567 Member

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    And this is just blatantly false.

    While racism existed across the country, you cannot deny that blacks in the south faced more institutional racism and more racially motivated violence than blacks in the north.
     
  11. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt 5-Year Member

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    Folks, I have lived north and south of the Mason Dixon line and been an Officer responsible for leading men who came from either side. I also led people of different race, creed and who knows what. While this is an interesting debate, the Officers of tomorrow must be capable of putting aside these differences to treat all those under their charge with respect (and refuse to tolerate any disrespect based on race, religion or geographical background.

    While interesting to watch the "debate", is there any value to continuing this thread??
     
  12. Tbpxece

    Tbpxece Member

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    Nope.
     
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  13. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe 5-Year Member

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    You're right this thread has probably run it's course. I do have to say though, high school history classes need to do a better job, hopefully college will provide a more in depth perspective to young Mr. Pickering.

    As far as attacking the South, I lived in the South for a while, loved it, loved the people....and the food is to die for.
     
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  14. cb7893

    cb7893 5-Year Member

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    The first oath under the Constitution was approved by Act of Congress 29 September 1789 (Sec. 3, Ch. 25, 1st Congress). It applied to all commissioned officers, noncommissioned officers and privates in the service of the United States. It came in two parts, the first of which read:

    ', A.B., do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) that I will support the constitution of the United States.'

    The second part read:

    'I, A.B., do solemnly swear or affirm (as the case may be) to bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and to serve them honestly and faithfully, against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and to observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States of America, and the orders of the officers appointed over me.'

    The next section of that chapter specified that


    'the said troops shall be governed by the rules and articles of war, which have been established by the United States in Congress assembled, or by such rules and articles of war as may hereafter by law be established.'


    Source: US Army Center of Military History, https://history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html

    I would call that an oath to a federal state. Nothing about Virginia. No qualifiers.

    I agree that Gen. Lee was a Gentleman, but was conflicted. I believe that he acted honorably in victory and in defeat, understanding that conflict. I have seen no evidence that he encouraged irredentism nor was there any attempt on his part to keep the "cause" alive. On the contrary, he gave unqualified support to the Union. He deserves respect and study, much as Mikhail Gorbachev or F.W. De Klerk.

    No Confederate did more, then or since, to help "bind up the nation's wounds." But, there is no question that he was a traitor.
     
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  15. EDelahanty

    EDelahanty 5-Year Member

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    I wonder if any of those Military College of South Carolina cadets who were awarded a battle streamer for firing on the Star of the West were on duty in Charleston Harbor in May 1862 when slave Robert Smalls heroically commandeered the Planter and sailed it under the noses of the Confederate batteries to the safety of the Union blockade. He, the other slave crewmen and their families were freed by his actions. You don't hear about Smalls these days, but he was an inspiring figure who transformed himself from an illiterate slave to Republican Congressman.
     
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  16. CitadelN88

    CitadelN88 Banned

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    The Star of the West is one of the symbols on a Cadet Ring, the Best Drilled Cadet is awarded the Star of the West Medal and their is one scholar in each class awarded the Star of the West Scholarship
     
  17. Day-Tripper

    Day-Tripper Member

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    No one doubts that the Confederate Army fought with distinction and were more than capably led.

    So did the Wehrmacht from 1939-1945. But I'm glad they lost, too.

    The world is better off that both the Confederacy & the Third Reich were militarily defeated.
     
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  18. CitadelN88

    CitadelN88 Banned

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    you're not really that ignorant are you?
     
  19. Nemo567

    Nemo567 Member

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    You really think the world would be a better place if the South won?
     
  20. Day-Tripper

    Day-Tripper Member

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    States rights' to do what? Expand slavery (and profits) of course. The Southern states knew that if the USA continued to expand with the territories of the West entering the Union as non-slave (or "free") states that it would limit their political power.

    No slavery issue? No Civil War.

    The Confederate Constitution pretty much laid it all out:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution

    "Article IV Section 3(3):
    The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states."
     
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