Harvard to Allow Army ROTC on Campus

Just_A_Mom said:
Wow - this is quite snobbish coming from one who is a West Point grad. Doesn't your Alma Mater pride itself on their strict qualifications and their brainy student body? Do they not pride themselves in delivering a world class, well rounded education?
I hope the Army is never too good for a Havahd graduate. When that day comes that we actually desire to dumb down the officer corps - that would be a sad day for America.
So what do we have here - we tell kids they need super SAT's and grades to earn a scholarship but you don't want them to go to a school that is 'too smart'. Yep, take bright kids and keep 'em dumb. wow.

But you are entitled to your superior opinion.
The 'smarties' at Harvard always had the opportunity to join AROTC, and they did. Do you seriously want to keep people out of the Army because they are too intelligent? Your attitude is sad and pathetic and out of step with Army leadership.
Fortunately being a badass chopper pilot doesn't appear to be a qualification for deciding the make up of the officer corps.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your objection to his post? He wasn't knocking their focus on academic success. He was knocking the "holier than..." attitude of Harvard and those that worship it.
 
scoutpilot said:
Give me a break. We have never gone wanting for extremely intelligent officers. Believe it or not, Harvard is NOT the only school with outstanding talent. As even you pointed out, MIT is right down the road and I've yet to see them admit many slouches.
Click to expand...

I should have waited 5 more minutes...
 
Here's the bottom line.... we loath the attitudes and positions that banned ROTC from these Universities, and we loath the continued protests against ROTC returning to these Universities.
BUT... We must certainly feel proud of the first incoming freshman to these Ivy campuses who will choose to wear their Cadet uniforms every week and represent our military culture that has been so lacking for the past 40 years! YEAH:thumb:
 
We had a Yale professor come speak at our ethics forum a couple days ago as the opening speaker and he thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. So many of those Ivy League types are arrogant and think they know everything. It's that unfounded arrogance that annoys me. A little thing called humility goes a long way...

Just because someone excels at academics does not mean they'll be a great officer. It's not where you come from. It's who you are as a person that counts.
 
scoutpilot said:
I don't need the lauded "elites" of Harvard to tell me I'm a public servant, nor do I crave the approval of such an institution. The fact that we care what they think cheapens us.

Mercenaries of big business? Harvard should know. They are the high temple of business.
Click to expand...
Right, I don't either. But you're preaching to the choir. As I wrote, the significance lies in its impact in the world of public opinion (not your or my or any ROTC cadet's opinion) and in informing public policy. And if you don't think public opinion matters in a world in which our policy makers live and die by their public support every four or six years ...

P.S. JustaMom -- I did not interpret Scout's post the same way you did.
 
scoutpilot said:
The fact that you think my point was "let's dumb down the officer corps" then your literacy is seriously in question. If you HONESTLY think I stated anything close to wanting to keep people out of the Army because they're too intelligent, you may need anti-psychotics, because you literally had to fabricate that notion out of thin air.

What I did say, and stand by, is that I find the notion that we should all rejoice because Harvard let us lowly military types back into their hallowed fold is what's pathetic. Harvard will allow us back! Oh joy! Swing low, sweet chariot! Now we have worth! Our mighty struggle for righteousness has come to an end!

Give me a break. We have never gone wanting for extremely intelligent officers. Believe it or not, Harvard is NOT the only school with outstanding talent. As even you pointed out, MIT is right down the road and I've yet to see them admit many slouches. In fact, my best friend is assigned to the ROTC unit there and I'll put any of his cadets against any product from Hahvahd. Then there's this school called Stanford. They've been producing officers for about 150 years. I hear they're pretty bright kids. But they're not Harvard, so pointing that out must be further evidence of my scheme to keep the Army dumb. I suppose the fact that Princeton has outstanding ROTC opportunities is also evidence of our nefarious desire to "take smart kids and keep them dumb." We couldn't get anyone from there who could compare to the super humans that Harvard could offer to our lowly mercenary--I mean military--venture.

But no, no, we're getting off topic. We must rejoice, for Harvard has decided in the year 2012 that Army officers are public servants.

What do you know about Army leadership anyway?
Click to expand...

Follow the bouncing ball - Harvard allows ROTC. SP says - we don't need Harvard - we have plenty of schools. Smart kid wants to go to Harvard. SP says to Smart kid - if you want to be in the Army go to another school - like State. Smart kid says I want to study Classics and Chinese - they don't offer it at State. SP says well study something easier and go to an easier school? Or don't be in the Army?
Not hard to draw the dumbing down conclusion from your 'elitist' remarks.

Probably you should get your facts straight - STANFORD just recently invited ROTC back to campus. And you say I may need anti-psychotics? I am seriously doubting you even read my post. You are the one who obviously feels the need to denigrate the Harvard and their 'elitism'. The fact is - Harvard is a leader in higher education. Like it or not - the moves they make have an impact.

Whatever. This is not about you. I know it's probably a shocker that the Army made a decision that is not about you. Not about you the individual officer and what 'validation' you need or do not need. You are looking at this from the wrong end.

Perhaps it's about redemption. Harvard - and other schools, Columbia, STANFORD and a few others - kicked out ROTC during Vietnam. You are far too young to remember or relate to this but the military had it rubbed in their faces that they were too good for a military career. Of course, you were never spit going to class in your ROTC uniform.
MIT was stuck between a rock and a hard place since they are a land-grant university and would have lost their land grant status.
As the Army welcome back other colleges including STANFORD - they should also welcome back Harvard.
Officership is an honorable career - I am pleased that the best in academia recognize this. You should be too.
A lot of Officers - current, former and retired put a lot of effort into this move - frankly, I am glad their efforts were not wasted and they came out on the winning end.
I honestly don't think there is anything negative about this move. I fail to see your point of view on this. Do you have something against someone serving in the military just because they go to Harvard? Honestly though this decision probably won't impact you or the work you do or what you think about during the long nights of your lonely deployment - nor should it.

In a nutshell - this move is good for the Army, good for Harvard and mostly good for the Army Cadets who attend Harvard. You don't have to ring the church bells or have a parade. But you should not be trashing it either.

What do you know about Army leadership anyway?
Click to expand...
Wow. What does this even mean? Just another way to 'prove' that you are the only one entitled to an opinion?
You are probably one of those soldiers who complain that the civilian population is 'out of touch' with the military - yet when we make an attempt you claim that we 'can't possibly know'. Can't have it both ways, buddy.
 
I think it's a solid development. Good to have more officers from a wider variety of ROTC sources. There were some great folks in my Basic class from some of the Ivies and if this brings more like them, excellent. (There were a few jackasses from the Ivies too but just as many or more from my USNA class, if I'm being honest.) From what I read, Harvard's President has been up front that she thinks the kicking out of ROTC was a mistake for many reasons, and she's just trying to fix it. She put herself out there (there are still some antiwar whackjob nuts on the faculty there) and I respect it.
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Follow the bouncing ball - Harvard allows ROTC. SP says - we don't need Harvard - we have plenty of schools. Smart kid wants to go to Harvard. SP says to Smart kid - if you want to be in the Army go to another school - like State. Smart kid says I want to study Classics and Chinese - they don't offer it at State. SP says well study something easier and go to an easier school? Or don't be in the Army?
Not hard to draw the dumbing down conclusion from your 'elitist' remarks.
Click to expand...

I think that you are interpreting in a way that fits you. I THINK what he is saying is that we don't need Harvard to tell the Army what they are doing is honorable. He is not knocking the fact that they got ROTC I don't think but the fact that we are happy because now we almost feel a sense of belonging and acceptance from Harvard. He is not saying don't go to Harvard at all, and we need to ignore everything that they say, he is knocking the need for acceptance from Harvard. I don't know if I explained clearly or if I was even right but just my take
 
Just_A_Mom said:
Follow the bouncing ball - Harvard allows ROTC. SP says - we don't need Harvard - we have plenty of schools. Smart kid wants to go to Harvard. SP says to Smart kid - if you want to be in the Army go to another school - like State. Smart kid says I want to study Classics and Chinese - they don't offer it at State. SP says well study something easier and go to an easier school? Or don't be in the Army?
Not hard to draw the dumbing down conclusion from your 'elitist' remarks.

Probably you should get your facts straight - STANFORD just recently invited ROTC back to campus. And you say I may need anti-psychotics? I am seriously doubting you even read my post. You are the one who obviously feels the need to denigrate the Harvard and their 'elitism'. The fact is - Harvard is a leader in higher education. Like it or not - the moves they make have an impact.

Whatever. This is not about you. I know it's probably a shocker that the Army made a decision that is not about you. Not about you the individual officer and what 'validation' you need or do not need. You are looking at this from the wrong end.

Perhaps it's about redemption. Harvard - and other schools, Columbia, STANFORD and a few others - kicked out ROTC during Vietnam. You are far too young to remember or relate to this but the military had it rubbed in their faces that they were too good for a military career. Of course, you were never spit going to class in your ROTC uniform.
MIT was stuck between a rock and a hard place since they are a land-grant university and would have lost their land grant status.
As the Army welcome back other colleges including STANFORD - they should also welcome back Harvard.
Officership is an honorable career - I am pleased that the best in academia recognize this. You should be too.
A lot of Officers - current, former and retired put a lot of effort into this move - frankly, I am glad their efforts were not wasted and they came out on the winning end.
I honestly don't think there is anything negative about this move. I fail to see your point of view on this. Do you have something against someone serving in the military just because they go to Harvard? Honestly though this decision probably won't impact you or the work you do or what you think about during the long nights of your lonely deployment - nor should it.

In a nutshell - this move is good for the Army, good for Harvard and mostly good for the Army Cadets who attend Harvard. You don't have to ring the church bells or have a parade. But you should not be trashing it either.

Wow. What does this even mean? Just another way to 'prove' that you are the only one entitled to an opinion?
You are probably one of those soldiers who complain that the civilian population is 'out of touch' with the military - yet when we make an attempt you claim that we 'can't possibly know'. Can't have it both ways, buddy.
Click to expand...

Are we buddies?

First and foremost, if you think I don't know how things worked because I'm "too young" and wasn't there, then I submit that you know nothing about the officership process since you've never served a day. Fair trade?

Secondly, it means that when you say "your views are pathetic" and try to tell me they don't jive with Army leadership, you can bet I'll ask you just what it is you think qualifies you to speak on the subject of Army leadership. Based on your answer, my guess was correct: nothing.

You're right, Standord invited ROTC back. What you don't know is that even though the battalion wasn't on campus, Stanford enjoyed robust participation through Santa Clara. We have a nice cohort of Cardinal in our ranks.

I'd go on and tell you how ludicrous your 2+2=5 explanation of your delusional interpretation of my viewpoint is, but the preceding posts are a litany of intelligent folks telling you you're off your rocker. I'll save the trouble.

If only those pesky dumb schools like Berkely and MIT and Princeton and Georgetown offered Chinese and the classics. It's a shame smart kids can only go to Harvard. We non-Harvard grads will just have to make do with our underwater basketweaving curricula. If only we could go back to school now that the popular boy has decided the ugly girl can be his date (because his mom told him she's nice).

You heard it here first, smart kids: go to state. Scoutpilot wants you dumb.
 
Last edited:
As an officer in the military, there is only one group of people you should seek validation and respect from, the men and women under your command.

Just by humble viewpoint, it served me well.

Scout, Underwater Basket Weaving is hard, of course it was easy for us Coasties, we had to hold our breath while we waded out to our ships, gave us an advantage.
 
Jcleppe said:
As an officer in the military, there is only one group of people you should seek validation and respect from, the men and women under your command.

Just by humble viewpoint, it served me well.

Scout, Underwater Basket Weaving is hard, of course it was easy for us Coasties, we had to hold our breath while we waded out to our ships, gave us an advantage.
Click to expand...

Army guys can't swim. We just hold our breath and march on the bottom. :wink:
 
Are we buddies? Heck yeah, I thought so. You seem to enjoy stalking my every post and making a point to disagree with me. Doesn't that make us buddies?

What you don't know is that even though the battalion wasn't on campus, Stanford enjoyed robust participation through Santa Clara. We have a nice cohort of Cardinal in our ranks.
Click to expand...
Heck yeah, I do know this. What you apparently do not know is that this is exactly the same situation as Harvard. Harvard students were NEVER prevented from participating in ROTC. There are Harvard students in the Paul Revere battalion now.
So what's your point?

My position is the same as the Army. The Army courted Harvard and did so for many years. Harvard did not come begging to the Army. Harvard has agreed to allow ROTC back and I support this. Same position as (then) General Petraeus who was active in encouraging Dr Faust to support the Army.
Since you don't agree with me then can I conclude that you are opposed to Harvard allowing the Army back on campus and you disagree with your bosses?

As an aside - here is an article from 2009 when General Petraeus addressed cadets at the commissioning ceremony:
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/2/17/petraeus-to-address-rotc-commissioning-ceremonies/
 
For Gods sake people, Nobody is talking about Harvard students or cadets, most of the comments were directed at the institution itself.

I feel like I'm back in 1st grade again.

Please, someone put this thread out of it's misery.
 
Harvard to allow ROTC back on campus?

Yawn. Hope DOD isn't paying full freight on scholarships.

Scout, once again your keyboard is doing my gut's talking.
 
Jcleppe said:
As an officer in the military, there is only one group of people you should seek validation and respect from, the men and women under your command.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. Not sure where you thought the importance of this un-banishment had to do with cadets. I am going to say a third time, more slowly this time

Harvard influences public opinion (which indirectly influences Public Policy), and Harvard directly influences Public Policy. The Secretary of Defense, Congress, and the POTUS define military policy, funding and the formal declaration of war. DoD depends upon public policy supporting its objectives. That Harvard would formally place value on military service as public service influences public policy.

You've got to appreciate the critical relation between Public Policy and our defense readiness, and when an influential thought leader such as the President of Harvard University lends support to military service, that is important.
 
dunninla said:
That Harvard would formally place value on military service as public service influences public policy.

You've got to appreciate the critical relation between Public Policy and our defense readiness, and when an influential thought leader such as the President of Harvard University lends support to military service, that is important.
Click to expand...

Dunn,

With all due respect, Who cares? Harvard and a few others have done a marvelous job of inflating the value of anything with their imprimatur; all to the end of maintaining their brand value. How appropriate that Mad Men returns today.

Let's understand this for what it is. A critical mass of Harvard constituencies would never have allowed ROTC back, if not for the repeal of DADT and the election of a President whom they like. I'm agnostic on those issues, but the Harvard faculty senate is not. They are the same folks who dumped Faust's predecessor for simply "asking out loud" why females underpopulate STEM faculties and jobs. He wanted more, but used the wrong words.

Let's not forget, there is $ in it for Harvard. Granted not much, but it is there and it extends beyond tuition/fee reimbursment. Also, they see the benefits afforded cadets like our beloved DS's and DD's.

Since the end of the Vietman War, the military has gone through a thorough transformation, most notably becoming an all volutnteer professional force. It successfully adapted from the bipolar geopolitical structure of the cold war (which we won) to a multipolar structure which is in complete flux. It has integrated females throughout the command structure. It is wrestling with implementation of DADT. It has abided the folly of politicians over the past 10 with the full throated support of most Americans, unlike the the 10 years culminating in the fall of Saigon.

We have a Chairman of the JCS who quotes Thucydides to explain the nuances of his statements about the (ir)rationality of Iran, to a bunch of clowns who would ask him to send the bombers to hit another hornet's net tomorrow. He have a CIA Director who literally wrote the book on counter-insurgency while in uniform.

All this was accomplished without ROTC on Harvard's campus. Thank you very much. If they want to get out of the wagon and help push, fine.
 
I think the bush has been officially beaten dead. People will have their opinions and I suspect that the opposing views will not move off their stance regardless of what the other poster states.

Diverting the thread a little, but for me, I wonder how this is going to play out now since the DOD will be shutting down ROTC units as a cost saving aspect. Does it make sense to open one at Harvard, when as everyone admits, Harvard students always had the option, but it was a x-town situation?

How is this cost effective, unless they are going to say the rent that ROTC pays to Harvard will be less or that the bulk of the cadets are coming from Harvard and not other schools?

People forget ROTC leases the buildings from the college. The college does not give them rooms for free. ROTC is a tenant at the college which costs money. Moving a unit will require money from a physical standpoint along with a man hour standpoint...takes hours to re-do those web sites, man hours to change phone numbers and those pretty glossy papers. If they are saying this addition to the already existing unit, than is that not Fraud, Waste and Abuse?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top