hazing

[NAS]

Thankfully there have not been any incidents of sexual assault as has occurred at AFA, USNA, USMA and VMI.

Once again, suggest you check your facts, Bob. Feel free to use google, it won't take you long--try summer camp, just for starters...

 

[bob80q]

I agree with clueless parent, as has been stated more recently if parents did today what many of ours did in the way of 'discipline' they would be in jail for child abuse. We are more enlightened now about the evils of physical abuse which of course have no place in any setting and standards of behavior have fortunately changed, what was considered acceptable 40 or 50 years ago no longer is but as pointed out some still don't get it; abuses will happen but fortunately the exception not the rule.

 

[SMC Dad]

Senior Military Colleges are not for everyone. The SMC environment is hard, structured, stressful, mentally and physically challenging with the goal of producing military officers. And while many SMC graduates do not pursue a military career, they are trained as military officers (Senior Military Colleges).
When my son decided to attend an SMC I told him that if HE decides to attend to do his research, make sure it is what HE wants and if HE decides HE wants to attend don’t call me wanting to quit because of the so-called hazing. I told him it is all a game. IGNORE it and drive onto the objective. If you make the decision learn from the experience be a man and see it through.
He spoke to SMC alumni and they told him that “academics comes first and the best thing to do is to blend in and learn how to be a team player. It is a game. When you’re being ripped into cuss them to yourself, laugh at them in your mind, but don’t let them beat you it is a game.” All of the alumni he spoke with would do it all over again and he spoke to many alumni from different SMCs.
On his overnight trip he was told a bunch of stories about what to expect. To many people the stories of what cadets endure have no place in modern society. But the cadets joke about it, they know the upper classman are playing a game that is part of the system and say that working with their classmates to get through has created a strong bond, helped them build team building skills and learn leadership skills. They also told him “academics come first and the best thing to do is to blend in and learn how to be a team player. It is a game. When you’re being ripped into cuss them to yourself, laugh at them in your mind, but don’t let them beat you it is a game.“ See the trend.
Like in every institution not just colleges, there are some bad apples that take things to the extreme. SMCs administrations work hard to provide a safe environment, have checks and balances in place and they work to ensure that isolated incidents are handled in the right manner. I have researched and I have not found SMCs to have larger incidents of HAZING than other institutions. Again SMCs aren’t for everyone and one man’s hazing is another man’s learning experience.
Do your research beforehand and if you or your parents are not comfortable with the so-called SMC hazing then don’t attend an SMC. There are many good not military institutions. My son found SMC to be a challenge that will prepare him to be successful in life and in the military.

 

[te45]

You're going to get hazed. Cadre/Upperclass WILL break the rules. It's all a matter of how you handle it. Personally, I feel as if it severely interferes with the academic integrity of the institution. However it does turn you in to a man. Reporting hazing has fallouts that are 10x worse than the hazing to begin with, so unfortunately, at the SMC I'm at (will remain unnamed), it's best to stay quiet and take it. We're told by the upperclass to be leaders and do what's right, as long as it doesn't hurt them. The SMC system that I have received thus far has been extremely hypocritical and unprofessional.

 

[Jcc123]

By your logic, child abuse turns boys into men. Odd, that doesn't seem to be the consensus.

 

[sheriff3]

I went through Marine boot camp in 1984, trust me when I say you are lucky to be at an SA or SMC. DS is an MSII , no reports of hazing or mistreatment at his unit ( probably wouldn't tell me if there was), all business and very professional.

 

[SMC Dad]

Went through Army BCT in 1980 and some would consider many of those experiences hazing today. I didn't consider it hazing then and looking back I don't consider it hazing now. It did make me a man real quickly. My cadet has not reported any hazing to me.

 

[bruno]

I suppose that it really depends on what you call hazing. By the definitions of some folks, what they mean is virtually any physical stress or harrassment- within the rules or without. If that is your definition then frankly your entire experience as a Rat at VMI could be seen as one giant hazing incident. I'm not sure why someone with that frame of reference woudl consider going to an SMC, but occassionally they do. However, there is a legal definition of hazing at least in Virgina and the regulations are written to encompass that and more, to ensure the safety of the Cadets. And certainly at VMI, and I would say at the other SMCs as well- the Commandant and his TacOfficers and the cadet chain of Command and Cadet govenemnt organizations control daily life in those barracks far more stringently than in the dorms of traditional colleges. Do things get out of hand? As with all endeavors- yes occasionally- but a cadet has a lot of regulations, supervision and enforcers on his side if things step put of bounds, and the penalty for a Cadet who knowingly and deliberately engages in activities outside the regualtions is far more draconian than at other places. I was far more secure about what my son was engaged in at VMI than I would be if my kid was at UMASS.

 

[MedB]

I was far more secure about what my son was engaged in at VMI than I would be if my kid was at UMASS.

This is the exact sentiment we share with friends and family that have asked about our children attending a military-type school.

It's normal to worry as parents... some might say you are odd if you don't! But the caliber of young person, quality of program, and level of supervision at our SMCs and SA's are all far above the typical university today.

 

[NAS]

I believe true "hazing" is far less prevalent than most think. Often, "hazing" is cited by someone who leaves due to the stress and rigors of a tough system. I have seen that term stretched to (and beyond) it's limits. I would also add that "hazing" in the true sense of the word occurs most often behind the closed doors of many fraternities than at SMCs. JMHO...

 

[LineInTheSand]

What's considered hazing is a moving target. When I hear stories about the Coast Guard Academy in the 1970s or 1980s, what we didn't wasn't close to that "hazing." However, since returning to the Coast Guard Academy as a visitor, I was told by a company officer who was one of my cadre that the stuff they did to me during my Swab Summer would, today, be considered hazing.

The question is, what tough stuff is considered hazing and what tough stuff has training value. Either way, your mom won't like to hear about the tough stuff (mine almost cried when I told her the stories).

 

[NavyHoops]

Hazing has nothing to do with training! I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I was hazed as a young Soldier (mid-80s) and I was in a leadership position when the Army took a stand against hazing and harrasment (mid-90s). Stress innoculation can take place without the use of humiliation or abuse.

Very well said BAMA.

 

[NAS]

What's considered hazing is a moving target. The question is, what tough stuff is considered hazing and what tough stuff has training value. Either way, your mom won't like to hear about the tough stuff (mine almost cried when I told her the stories).

Very well said--had very similar experience.
Moving target indeed...

 

[NorwichDad]

Hazing - Some things not to do!

 

[USMCGrunt]

Hazing? That's just motivational instruction!

USMC definition of hazing found in MCO 1700.28B dated 20 May 2013: "Hazing, as defined by reference (h), is any conduct whereby a military member or members, regardless of Service or rank, without proper authority causes another military member or members, regardless of Service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to any activity which is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning/ or harmful."

Another excerpt: "Hazing does not include command-authorized or operational activities; the requisite training to prepare for such missions or operations; verbal counseling addressing performance or conduct deficiencies; administrative corrective measures; properly administered Extra Military Instruction (EMI) (see subparagraph 2e and 2f below); athletic events; command authorized physical training; authorized incentive training permitted exclusively at the Marine Corps Recruit Depots; and other similar activities authorized by the chain of command."

http://www.2ndmlg.marines.mil/Portals/67/Docs/EOA/MCO170028B.pdf

 

[Jcleppe]

I would also add that "hazing" in the true sense of the word occurs most often behind the closed doors of many fraternities than at SMCs. JMHO...

If Fraternities did even 1/10th of what occurs during the first year at a SMC, their doors would be closed in a heartbeat.

That being said it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Cadets attending a SMC know (at least they should) what they are getting into, they understand they are entering a military environment and have some expectations of what will happen. I agree with Bama, the use of humiliation or abuse has no place in either institution. While Fraternities don't do near what goes on at a SMC, they are sometimes guilty of a more subtle hazing which can be just as bad.

 

[glen]

Folks - whatever "hazing" at SMCs exists today is a pale comparison to what is going on in some of the most well respected - Ivy League and public Ivys. like Dartmouth College, U Va, Yale and other schools where hazing takes the form of out of control binge drinking, humiliating abuse, and forced sexual encounters that in some cases leads to rape. At Clemson University there is an investigation of a student death during a "fraternity run." Alcohol is suspected. Here is a recent excerpt from a Dartmouth College article in Cosmopolitan. Dartmouth College graduate Andrew Lohse shared his experience in a fraternity, claiming "all the hazing warps guys' concept of consent." Lohse said his fraternity brothers would call girls "sluts" and "slampieces," working tirelessly to get them drunk and have sex with them. He also described the fraternity's basement, where brothers were hazed and girls sometimes entered, as a "predatory conspiracy." He wrote:
"The frat basement was a place we as pledges came to associate with forced drinking, nudity, humiliation, and submission to those higher on the social hierarchy. Most of our hazing events took place when we'd been ordered to drink such extreme amounts of alcohol that we couldn't have possibly consented to them. But we were indoctrinated that this type of exploitation was totally normal. This brainwashing was subconsciously projected onto any non-brothers, i.e., women, who entered the space, and I think it rewired some guys."
The author of Confessions of an Ivy League Frat Boy: A Memoir, coming out Aug. 26, Lohse has shared his stories about being a member of Dartmouth's Greek system before.
In 2012, Lohse told the Rolling Stone that in order to be a "true bro," you have to be able to drink "inhuman amounts of beer," "vomit profusely" and "perform a number of other hard-partying feats."
He also revealed in the school's paper, The Dartmouth, that the fraternity hazed pledges by making them swim in a kiddie pool full of vomit and urine, chug vinegar and drink beer poured down fellow pledges' behinds. Lohse also accused the Ivy League school's Greek system of "pervasive hazing, substance abuse and sexual assault."
- See more at: http://www.campuscircle.com/review.cfm?r=20225#sthash.j168u7XC.dpuf

 

[Full Metal Bulldog]

Folks - whatever "hazing" at SMCs exists today is a pale comparison to what is going on in some of the most well respected - Ivy League and public Ivys. like Dartmouth College, U Va, Yale and other schools where hazing takes the form of out of control binge drinking, humiliating abuse, and forced sexual encounters that in some cases leads to rape. At Clemson University there is an investigation of a student death during a "fraternity run." Alcohol is suspected. Here is a recent excerpt from a Dartmouth College article in Cosmopolitan. Dartmouth College graduate Andrew Lohse shared his experience in a fraternity, claiming "all the hazing warps guys' concept of consent." Lohse said his fraternity brothers would call girls "sluts" and "slampieces," working tirelessly to get them drunk and have sex with them. He also described the fraternity's basement, where brothers were hazed and girls sometimes entered, as a "predatory conspiracy." He wrote:
"The frat basement was a place we as pledges came to associate with forced drinking, nudity, humiliation, and submission to those higher on the social hierarchy. Most of our hazing events took place when we'd been ordered to drink such extreme amounts of alcohol that we couldn't have possibly consented to them. But we were indoctrinated that this type of exploitation was totally normal. This brainwashing was subconsciously projected onto any non-brothers, i.e., women, who entered the space, and I think it rewired some guys."
The author of Confessions of an Ivy League Frat Boy: A Memoir, coming out Aug. 26, Lohse has shared his stories about being a member of Dartmouth's Greek system before.
In 2012, Lohse told the Rolling Stone that in order to be a "true bro," you have to be able to drink "inhuman amounts of beer," "vomit profusely" and "perform a number of other hard-partying feats."
He also revealed in the school's paper, The Dartmouth, that the fraternity hazed pledges by making them swim in a kiddie pool full of vomit and urine, chug vinegar and drink beer poured down fellow pledges' behinds. Lohse also accused the Ivy League school's Greek system of "pervasive hazing, substance abuse and sexual assault."
- See more at: http://www.campuscircle.com/review.cfm?r=20225#sthash.j168u7XC.dpuf

^ I have close friends at big SEC state schools who have had to deal with worse than this. As an SMC cadet who wasn't particularly liked by his cadre, while I will say that I didn't have a whole lot of fun my freshman year, I never had to deal with anything like this. And the people that did approve of this kind of sadism never lasted long in any kind of leadership capacity.

Also, my grandfather attended Marine Corps Boot Camp in 1957 and later became a Special Forces soldier in the US Army in the early 1960's (no idea how training for that worked at the time). Ask him about hazing, I dare ya.

 

[Cluelessparent]

Also, my grandfather attended Marine Corps Boot Camp in 1957 and later became a Special Forces soldier in the US Army in the early 1960's (no idea how training for that worked at the time). Ask him about hazing, I dare ya.

That was then this is now. Might as well been light years ago. Let's see how is it now....our country graduates more lawyers than the rest of the world has. Get the point? Not that I agree with what the definition of hazing has become but I know folks are well aware of what I mean.

 

[kinnem]

While I think this is a good discussion topic, and it's evident that some non-SMC colleges have some forms of hazing for at least some portion of the student population, I don't think we need to air all the sordid details here. Let's remember this is a family forum. Try to keep your comments in bounds.