He might drop out of ROTC

Peridot,

Good Luck with whatever decision was made tonight, if any. It's apparent that you have the issues in sight and based on this you can guide your son effectively.
 
I suppose I got a little worked up on this one. I truly did not mean to insult or degrade anyone. There are two things that always work me up, talking about serving our country and Alzheimer's Disease. And if you put them together, I am just an emotional wreck. :0)

I just wish more did not take this wonderful opportunity for granted, when there are so many that would not. In the end if they work through the mental toll it can take, because it is most definitley hard to balance. It will pay off in the end because they will essentially set themselves up for life. Not just a life, but a life to be proud of and honor to back it.
 
NYEAGLE1 said:
Being stack ranked is a problem? Does not everyone assume this takes place in college in general and in the workplace? If you attend places like Boston University Business program, you have a peer review that counts for 20% of your grade each semester!
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I hear peer reviews daily in ROTC. I get racked and stacked every time I wake up. It does not affect 20% of my grade, it affects 100% of my life and my future career. I feel like that is sort of different than Boston University's Business program.....

It seems as though this thread has turned from a "My son is thinking about leaving ROTC, because he is pressured and not sure if he wants to be an Army Officer" into a "Your son is a quitter and sub-par." I think maybe we should re-read the first few posts stating the real reason for this discussion.

Additionally, in the contract Army ROTC cadets sign, it allows them to leave the program after 1 year. I would love to see statistics showing enlisted personnel who would leave the service after a 1 year "test drive" if it was allowed in their contract. It's in our contracts, enough said. If a cadet chooses to leave after one year, good for them. I'm glad they realized it wasn't the right life choice for them.
 
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The skype last night was just about what I expected. He seems to be closer to leaving the program than staying in. He will complete the semester and faithfully meet all the ROTC requirements and expectations. But it remains to be seen if he can put his heart and soul into it enough for it be a wise long-term decision.

He said his change of heart comes from feeling he can't see himself in the Army. As an outsider, it really appealed to him. From the inside, not so much. In addition, he's having second thoughts on the career he was planning for after AD. This then questions his choice of major.

So, he's a kid full of questions, obligations, and internal turmoil.

We explained the financial sacrifices he'd face if he dropped out and he said he had already thought of that. He even went so far to say he'd transfer out if he had to. We'd all like to avoid that, and I am pretty sure we can.

His dad took the news pretty hard. But, I think he'll be OK after some DABDA. (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance)

So that's all we know at this point. I'll take early steps on the back-up plan (FAFSA for possible Staffords), then we wait.

Pflyer17 - I'm sorry to read that your parents didn't help you. But just because I will help my kid doesn't make me a bad parent or him a bad young man. Thank you for your service.
 
Peridot,

I'm glad your DS confined more details sooner rather than later. I know when something is bothering one of my kids I'm on edge until I know the details. Whatever choice he ultimately makes he will be a sucessful young adult - with support from his family and obviously a bright, questioning mind - he will find what really does work for him. :smile:
 
Peridot said:
The skype last night was just about what I expected. . . .
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Peridot, thank you for sharing your experience here on SAF. While we are trying to provide advice (because we care), just know that patentesq and others have learned a LOT from this thread in the "parenting skills" department.
 
Peridot thank you for your candid and honest posting. It gives me much to think about. I truly hope that whatever your sons decision, it works out well. He is very fortunate to have such supportive and caring parents. Sorry if about my earlier rant, a bad week on my part was really np excuse for hijacking your thread.
 
Peridot,

As hard as that Skype must have been last night, but if I were in your shoes, I would look at the bigger picture.

1. Be thankful he is open and honest with you. That is a true compliment to your relationship if he feels at this young age he can talk to you.

2. Before he addressed it, he already thought about everything...transferring, careers, majors, etc.

3. If he is willing to transfer colleges, than there is the writing on the wall of how much he does not want to serve.

4. He has his cranium on straight. How many of us parents entered college, graduated and remained in a career for decades with regrets? How many of us changed career fields? Better now to enter a field he wants to be in than one he feels he must be in.

You raised an intelligent young man.

5. Your DH is like many parents when their kids take a 180 degree turn. He envisioned in his mind 4 yrs from now on graduation day pinning on those butter bars. He made a Norman Rockwell picture in his mind, and now someone stole that picture.

When he sees that he is happier out of ROTC even if he transfers colleges, he will feel differently.

You are right for your husband this a dream that died. He needs to go through the 5 stages. This is not uncommon, actually it is quite common...especially at the SA's because only 75% of any incoming class will graduate.

P-flying
But some sort of recourse should be applied if you drop.
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In the AFROTC world there is a recourse if you are contracted...they demand financial payback of the scholarship. A cadet at our DS's det went to SFT, came back and told the AF he is out. They said fine, but now you owe us 2 yrs of scholarship money. Luckily for him he is an IS student so it is @ 30K and not private.

He had a financial hold put on him and could not register with the school until he paid that back to the AF.

For peridot, there is another silver lining...can you imagine if that child was yours until contract and you now had to find the $$$ for school without the scholarship and owe tens of thousands back?

Not only is your school being paid for, but all the staff that has a vested interest in you, as well as the training that you are going through, it all costs money. Money paid for by tax payers and I am a tax payer.
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I understand what you are trying to state, but the fact is ROTC was created to groom/educate officers. This is why when they contract they are required to pay back time for yrs. It is meant to re-coup the costs of the education. An engineer in the corporate world does not start out at 45K marker like an officer in the military. Their starting salaries are much higher, probably closer to 75K (at least in the VA area)...30K more a yr than the military member, multiply that by 4 yrs and the difference is 120K...scholarship tier 7 is up to 18K for 4 yrs or 72K, @50K difference. How many AD work in a det or BN? 5/6/7? That would avg out to be 12.5K per yr going to the staff from that 50K differential. 50 cadets on scholarship and the costs are covered. It works out in the long run from a fiscal standpoint as far as DOD is concerned.

Additionally, if they are not scholarship, it is more like JROTC in HS, they do not get a penny. Do you feel we should not have JROTC in HS?

We are all taxpayers, even the AD military members, we all have a vested interest in our military. There is always a price to pay from that POV.
I am also believer in that they should reimplement the draft and that everyone should serve their country in some way, whether it is as a civilian support or in the military. That also has no bearing on my job.
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As a spouse who lived that life for 20 yrs, only out of it 2 yrs ago, I saw way too many people who were there for the wrong reasons(payback time is one of them). Our military is as strong as it is because they volunteer to be there. They want to serve. The ones that are forced to serve usually bring down the morale of the unit because they are unhappy. Unhappy that they didn't get that job. Unhappy that they were forced to move somewhere they didn't want to go to. Unhappy because they can't get into base housing or paying out of pocket for rent. In essence, they are the ones they are unhappy in everything in life because they never wanted to be in the service in the 1st place. Do you want to serve next to them everyday for their 4 yr tour?

I do concur that we should have every person over 18 serve in some fashion the country, be it Peace Corps, government internships (even at the town level) or the military. I just don't believe it has to be military related. This would be the equivalent to the Gap yr that is very common in Europe. It lets them see the world from a different perspective, while understanding how every aspect of our country touches multiple other aspects of the world.
 
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Peridot, I think the most important thing is that your son is going to stick it out through the first year. In getting my daughter ready to go to school I read a book and a separate magazine article that indicated most students who go off to college become disillusioned at some point in the first year. That is typically in the fall or winter. They think they went to the wrong school, picked the wrong major, etc.

The advice from these articles was pretty consistent: hang in there until the end of the year. Most kids will bounce back from a bad spell and decide all is well. If they don't after a year, then a change may be in order.

I think the same concepts hold for ROTC as they do for selection of school and major. If you son hangs in there until the end of the year he will probably be able to make a good decision on his direction. The important thing is that he did not quit right now in the midst of a freshman "funk".
 
mariner116 said:
Peridot, I think the most important thing is that your son is going to stick it out through the first year. In getting my daughter ready to go to school I read a book and a separate magazine article that indicated most students who go off to college become disillusioned at some point in the first year. That is typically in the fall or winter. They think they went to the wrong school, picked the wrong major, etc.

The advice from these articles was pretty consistent: hang in there until the end of the year. Most kids will bounce back from a bad spell and decide all is well. If they don't after a year, then a change may be in order.

I think the same concepts hold for ROTC as they do for selection of school and major. If you son hangs in there until the end of the year he will probably be able to make a good decision on his direction. The important thing is that he did not quit right now in the midst of a freshman "funk".
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Great advice, along with much of the other above.

One other piece to add in... He should talk to the the cadre about his thinking in the next month or so. They have a vested interest in making sure he makes the correct decision regardless of what that is. The military does not want people who don't want to be there. However, if he is not liking what he is seeing in his limited exposure to military life, perhaps this is something the cadre can address with him. If his problem is more that he doesn't see how the military can help him with his post-military career because his major/field of study is changing (or about to change), perhaps the cadre can give him clarification on if/how the military fits into his longer term goals. And ultimately, if the cadre senses that his heart isn't in the military lifestyle, they will want him to leave ROTC for the right reason as they do value their reputation on campus and want a good reference even if the military is not for him. They want to fight the notion that ROTC is all about recruiting and not about the individual's interest.

As a parent, I would also PM Clarksonarmy for advice as I'm sure he has experienced kids just like your son in his unit to see how these things pan out. While you can talk to your son's school's cadre, generally they prefer to deal with the student as ultimately it is his/her decision. However, Clarkson doesn't have a vested interest and can council you as to how these things go to help you understand what your son will be going through with his cadre.
 
Pima said:
I do concur that we should have every person over 18 serve in some fashion the country, be it Peace Corps, government internships (even at the town level) or the military. I just don't believe it has to be military related.
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This is excellent, Pima. There are many ways to be a productive member of our society beyond the military. Many believe that the military is the be-all, end-all. Great Americans like George Washington, Ulysses Grant, Teddy Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, and many others understood that there are other ways to serve your country.
 
Sargent Shriver died a few days ago, he and Eunice got that. The two of them created 2 of the greatest organizations in the world...Peace Corp and Special Olympics.

I have 2 kids right now in college, 1 is going ROTC, the other is in sociology hoping to spend a semester in Africa volunteering her time (gap).

Nobody is forcing them. It was and is their decision. Trust me, as a Mom, Africa scares me, but I cut one of the apron strings, and accept this is her life, her desire.

Sorry, but IMHO forcing mandatory service is passing the buck for parents. I am proud of my kids for wanting to give instead of receiving. As parents we should impart to our children that they are the future. We raise them and we should be the ones to teach them that there is honor in helping...not the govt mandating it. If they only give their time because it was mandated by law, we as parents failed.
 
Pima said:
. . . the other is in sociology hoping to spend a semester in Africa volunteering her time . . .
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Cripes! My son wants to spend a semester in Africa as well, specifically at a health clinic in Madagascar for the purpose of treating patients suffering from Bubonic plague! (there is a little-reported outbreak of plague in Madagascar right now). I almost fell out of my chair when I heard that. He's a tough kid, though.
 
Son in same boat (NPI)

My son started his freshman year as a college programmer (after receiving a nomination for the Naval Academy but ultimately wasn't accepted, and not receiving a Tier 3 Navy scholarship). Prior to fall quarter he was offered and accepted a scholarship (one of a handful of Tier 3 Navy given) for the remainder of his college education. He started the school year very upbeat--one of the most gung ho kids his B&G had ever seen), but as the school year progressed things went downhill. He had virtually no friends other than the ROTC kids, and when they were busy with their other new friends he had virtually no one to do things with (most were in another dorm clear across campus). Difficult for a kid who had always been outgoing and had no problems making friends. Always a creative kid with a vast array of interests (music, martial arts, reading, scifi), he found this group of kids limited (no insult, just not the kind of kids he was used to). With tough classes (18 credits both quarters), early mornings for PT (he also joined bulldog PT but is Navy option), two NROTC teams, a bad triple dorm room/roommate situation, bad break up with girlfriend from home, and the hours lying awake thinking "is this all there is, and is this what I want to be doing, everyone I know is absolutely loving college life and I hate mine," we've received too many unhappy phone calls to count, as well as some very scary emails. He's tried joining clubs to meet people, but actually doesn't have a lot of time between studying and NROTC activities to do much. One of his classes requires him to do 20 hours volunteer work for children for this quarter--in addition to the volun-told work he's got with NROTC.

After looking at all the posts here I've found some good information/advice to perhaps share with him. Obviously we don't want him to waste the opportunity the scholarship brings, but his sanity is more important. Don't know if this is freshman funk, but with spring break approaching--and some time home regrouping, we're hoping he can hold out through this school year and see if he looks at it differently once he's completed a year. With Cortramid this summer he might find he really, really wants to do this and accordingly deal with all the bad looking toward the good down the line. Right now, however, all he sees is the bad. :frown:

If anyone else has some words of wisdom to pass on, I'l love them.
Thanks for listening.
 
You should call and talk with his unit's commander or freshman counselor. They are there to counsel as well as lead.
 
I disagree with P-17, do not call the cadre. I say this for a multitude of reasons.

1. No faster way to tick off your 18/19 yo than for him to be called in for a sit down, and hear "your parents are concerned about you"

It is down right embarrassing for them, and although you may have done this out of love, you just hurt them more. You broke a confidence and a trust...you went behind their back and talked about things they said in private to their parents.


2. Many CoCs may see this as here comes Mommy or Daddy to save the day for their baby.

Their job is to raise/groom leaders, and they see college as the 1st test of entering the adult world.

No enlisted parent would call the squadron commander to "talk" about their kid. It wouldn't be tolerated in the AD world, unless we are talking fear of life (depression).


3. You just highlighted your child in a negative image. You just said he is having issues.

Once in ROTC, there will be more boards, more frustration, the CoC will be wondering if we have a "helo" parent who will now be a pain in their arse whenever their child phones home and doesn't sound happy.

CoC's are looking to hand fall semester 11 jobs right now for leadership positions. In essence, you maybe now hurting him by creating fear in the leadership of his ability. How can he mentor mids if they need to "counsel" him because of his folks? Counseling always occurs in the cadre. That is why they have POCs mentor GMCs. They look to be there for them.

I think any and all ROTC mids/cadets would say "folks, stay out of it let me take care of it".

Freshman yr is difficult, and every kid at one time will get into a funk. For our DS it came at this time, for our DD it came in October. Within a few weeks it went away.

IMPO, as a parent I would be leaning to the fact that the loss of his gf and the dorm issue is where the problem really lies. His ROTC friends went off and started life, he may have been too busy with the gf to truly bond with them, thus they moved on with life without him.

He needs to be proactive and call the friends, make the effort to get out of that bad dorm sit. Once he does, he will also find more friends through them to start a new life.

Colleges, especially very big or the very small come be extremely cliquey. The big gives kids issues because the class sizes they are numbers, so they need that clique socially. The small because it is so small kids make decisions about someone before they ever met them...old joke, you sneeze and the whole school says bless you.

Be prepared spring break might also be hard depending on how long he dated his gf...it will be a haunting for him if they dated for yrs because everywhere he goes there will be memories, or fear of running into her. His friends were probably her friends too, thus it can be awkward seeing them.

Have him wait through the summer. Make a deal and tell him, wait until August, if you still feel this way next yr than go for it (leave), but you just want to ask him to let his emotions settle down. 18 credits, finals approaching ROTC, 20 hrs volunteering, etc. is a lot for any kid. Put on top being away from home, bad dorm mates and a bad break up, even us as parents would feel the exact same way as him at our age.

If he was showing signs of cracking with everything he is going through, that is when I wold be concerned. Time is a great asset to make people view life differently once they are looking at it from a historical perception.

I would ask him do you have an NROTC mentor? A POC that you are assigned to for guidance? Discuss with him how to navigate the school more efficiently, maybe it is just the 18 credits and volunteering that he needs to cut back on. The POC can tell him that. Much better than getting the command involved.
 
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ParentofMen wrote: "He had virtually no friends other than the ROTC kids"

there's something wrong in that ... but it is a symptom, not the problem. Find the problem. It's probably not ROTC.
 
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Pima,

I have to disagree with you. If you tell him to talk to his freshman advisor, they can normally relate. They are normally lt's that are not that much older, who have been through the same thing he is going through. They can relate and guide or he can go to a counselor at the school. Sometimes it is just nice to talk to an outside source or someone who has been there before.
 
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