hello and thanks

I think this is one of those discussions that can best be answered only by those who have been there. All others provide nothing but second hand speculation. What we are seeing on these forums are a group of justifiably proud parents who are putting their kids on taller pedestals than perhaps is warranted.

The admissions process ensures that they have the wherewithal to succeed. Once there, the atmosphere is such that a positive attitude is inevitable unless the cadet/midshipman truly wants to fight the system. The atmosphere again provides success in academics. Again, only those who fight the system and do not utilize the many available resources, will fail. In many ways, a SA, with fewer distractions, a more structured environment, and a much better support system and atmosphere, is actually easier to graduate from than a civilian college.

All hyperbole aside, how many eighteen years old go to a SA to defend their country? Each has a more personal reason. And how many service people in Iraq are there today because they want to defend their country? Very few. They will, almost to a person, tell you they are there to help their buddy, to help both of them to come home alive. The more esoteric might tell you that they want to see their unit succeed. This is why the building of teamwork is so important in all military training programs. None will tell you that it is so John Doe, 1 Main St, Any Town, USA can sleep at night.

I have always said and will continue to do so, that getting in is the hard part. To stay there is a piece of cake.

There are mids/candidates who do not belong in the military and the admissions process cannot detect. Most will leave, either by their own choosing or at the insistence of their peers and/or upper class. I would think that a higher than 80% retention would contain some of these individuals. As a taxpayer, I would rather they leave while at a SA rather than when they are in the position to lose someone's life.
 
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USNA 69, thank you for your comments. As someone who has been there I appreciate your input. You ask " how many eighteen year olds go to a SA to defend their country?" I personally know one eighteen year old very well who was profoundly affected by the attack on America and the murder of 3000 of her citizens on sept 11, 2001. Maybe it is an erroneous assumption on my part
to think that the majority of mids/cadets who are in SA's are there at least partly because they have a desire to serve and defend this great country.
My son, like most SA applicants has the grades and test scores to attend just about any civilian college he would want to. So why do they go to a service academy? The " free " education? Wrong reason. If that is your primary reason to attend, then I suspect that you are likely to fail.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of the military is to protect and defend this country.
I would hope that the majority of our military leaders are there for reasons that are consistent with that purpose. If you are there just to collect a paycheck, there are easier paychecks to be had.
By you, I don't mean you personally. I am referring to military officers in general.
Thank you for your service to our country.
 
I challenge you to tell the 18 year old that both the Army and the Marines are currently having trouble filling their ranks with highly qualified personnel and that the best way he can presently serve his country is to go down to the local recruiting office tomorrow and be in Iraq within the next 9 months. When you start hearing his reasoning that this is not such a good idea for him, you will understand some of the reasons to which I am referring. Personal desires, some which could be considered selfish, will outweigh service to country. If not, I would question whether the candidate had done his homework. And hopefully, while a “free education” might be one of them, I certainly hope that it is superseded by such things as personal desires and suitability, with probably the benefits of an outstanding education and a prestigious career being somewhere in the mix. You are correct that they are partly there in their desire to serve country, but there will be more personal, and probably somewhat self-serving reasons.

I had this revelation several years ago at an Academy Day where a future Special Ops USNA midshipman two days after selection night told the audience exactly what I have stated. He additionally threw in the statement that he couldn’t care less about the collected audience, he was doing it for his family and his team mates. One could have heard a pin drop for at least five minutes. He is now a Naval Officer defending his country. I will admit that initially I wanted to leap to the podium and strangle him but, after further reflection, what he said is true. The way one serves their country is by doing their job and covering their wingman’s six o’clock. Incidentally, he is a hero to every candidate who was there that I have subsequently interviewed
 
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So an 18 year old that has the desire, motivation and ability to become an officer is somehow serving his country in a lesser way than an 18 year old that goes down to the local recruiting office to enlist.
The Army and Marines are also having trouble retaining highly qualified officers
 
So an 18 year old that has the desire, motivation and ability to become an officer is somehow serving his country in a lesser way than an 18 year old that goes down to the local recruiting office to enlist.

Not at all. But if ALL an 18 year old wants to do is serve his country, why not immediately enlist? Just pointing out that there is more to the story than Maverick's "I just want to serve my country, sir". Remember, he also wanted to fly fighters.



The Army and Marines are also having trouble retaining highly qualified officers

My point exactly. The current situation is ideal for those who simply want to serve their country. The fact that they are leaving is that other personal, and more important to them, goals are remaining unfulfilled.

To take Maverick one step further:

BGO-What are your career aspirations?

Candidate-I just want to serve my country, sir.

BGO- How do you envision this?

Candidate: It doesn’t matter sir. I just want to repay those bastards who bombed the World Trade Center.

BGO – So, I will assume that you see yourself leading troops into battle?

Candidate – Yes sir, I guess so. (long enough pause to indicate that there is no further conversation)

Or:

BGO-What are your career aspirations?

Candidate – I just want to be the best fighter pilot in the Navy sir.

BGO: I guess you know that the Navy no longer has fighters.

Candidate – Yes sir, but F/A-18s are almost as good.

BGO – You do know that USNA is rejecting some pilot selectees due to needs of the Navy.

Candidate: Yes sir, but I will study hard and get my first choice.

BGO: I am sure you also know that flight school is extremely difficult and many do not get their first choice.

Candidate: Yes sir.

BGO; Well, what will you do if you don’t get jets out of basic training?

Candidate: Sir, I will shoot my foot off so I do not have to incur further obligation.

Which would you choose?
 
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I apologize if I gave you the impression that by " service to country" I mean a generic, non-specific, let's go kill the enemy concept. Quite the contrary, my candidate is very focused, has done his research and knows exactly how he wants to "serve his country". Granted, he may change his mind when exposed to other options at the academy, but driving ships is what floats his boat.
Maybe I have had the good fortune to meet some exceptional SA candidates, but of the 14 or so that I know or have met, not one of them has responded with Maverick's generic " I just want to serve my country sir", when asked why they want to attend a service academy.
I think maybe we disagree on the semantics of what " serving and defending your country" means. My assumption is that if you are a motivated SA candidate, you all ready have a pretty good idea of how you want to serve.
If all you can offer as a candidate is Maverick's response, then it is time for a serious head-check, heart-check and gut-check.
So, I actually find myself in agreement with you and appreciate your clarification.
 
I think a lot of kids start the process of the military or rotc or service academy out of patriotism - but not all of them.

There are many reasons kids give: they wanna get outta town, they want a good education that is paid for, they want to play with really big toys or they want a personal challenge some even go because it was the only D-I school that recruited them.
This is nothing new - heck even in WWII many were drafted and many joined up because their buddy or brother or best friend joined.

I love hearing each kids story about how they came to find out about and apply to a service academy - I don't think there are any "wrong" reasons" really - the worst is because their parents wanted them too.
In Ed Ruggero's book "Duty First" - he talks briefly about this and says those kids who are the most unhappy are those that are there for their parents.

As far as the free education goes - I personally don't have a problem with that - given the price of higher education and the amount of loans most students graduate with. Not all cadets could have gotten a "free ride " without help from the military. Many are first generation college students who come from homes where the parent is either unwilling or unable to support one in college.

Those that want to play with big toys - these are probably the most dedicated to and most proficient in operating their machines - whether it is a jet, helicopter, tank, ship or machine gun. The military needs those kinds of folks. This kind of attitude keeps them from getting killed.

For some kids the military is a way to get outta town. If you live in a depressed economy - with little or no jobs available - the military is a great opportunity. It is a great equalizer - everyone is judged and promoted on their own merits. No one cares if you folks were dairy farmers, coal miners or stock brokers.

While many kids go because they are patriotic - I don't think going on patriotism alone will get you far past R-Day. The whole experience transcends patriotism. When a cadet gets up everyday and decides to stay - it is because of the personal challenge or they don't want to bail out and leave their buddies. This kind of attitude will keep them and their troops from getting killed when they "get out there".....

I would love to sit on a park bench in Annapolis or Highland Falls and randomly ask mids and cadets why they chose a service academy - I bet I would get many different answers.
 
Yes, I agree that there many reasons and motives for wanting to attend a service academy. By virtue of being in the military, I feel that each person is serving and defending this country regardless of their reasons and motives for being there.

Consider this rare interview.
BGO- Son, why do you want to attend the Academy?
Candidate- Sir, I don't give a damn about defending you or this country. I just want to fly airplanes.

Now let's assume this individual is in the military flying airplanes. Is he serving and defending his country? Yes. Would I be proud of him? No. Am I thankfull that he is there? If he is doing his job correctly, you bet I am.

While patriotism is not a requirement for success, I sure like it when I see it.
Am I proud of my son? You bet I am.
 
Now let's assume this individual is in the military flying airplanes. Is he serving and defending his country? Yes. Would I be proud of him? No. Am I thankfull that he is there? If he is doing his job correctly, you bet I am.

Maybe you should think about turning your idealism down a notch or two. I think you have just declared yourself unproud of 80% of the troops in the military. What JAM says applies even more to our enlisted than to our officer corps.
 
applies even more to our enlisted than to our officer corps

Oh without a doubt - and remember our children will be leading these enlisted.

All of our kids know the "correct" answer to the question - and that is to become an officer in the Army/Navy/Air Force and serve my country.... they say this so often - admissions, nomination interviews etc.... we start to believe them.
There are many ways of being patriotic - serving in the military is just one way.
If I was on a Congressional Nomination committee (and this is probably why I never will be!) I would love to have this conversation:

Me: Why do you want to attend USMA/USNA/USAFA??
Candidate: To serve my country and be the best officer I can be.

Long pause...................................................
Me: I sit up - look the candidate in the eye, smile and say -
Very good. Now tell my why you REALLY want to go to USxx......

I would honestly love to hear all the answers - a way to get through college without being a burden to my folks, I want to leave this god-forsaken town and see the world, I always wanted to drive a tank, I want to be a part of something bigger than myself.....etc........this is where the deep down motivation comes from.

Many recruited athletes never had any intention of attending a service academy until they were recruited - some will say they are there for the wrong reasons - but many of these kids turn into real fine officers and patriots. They have grown up as athletes and understand being a part of a team - how to be a part of and even sacrifice for the greater good.

gator guy - be proud of all of our military personnel regardless of their own personal motivation. Pure patriotism isn't gonna win a war - the ability to do one's job really well (like the kids who just wants to fly planes) and sacrifice for your buddy is gonna win the war.
Medal of Honor winners weren't concerned about "their country" during their moment of valor - they were only concerned for their fellow soldier.

The reason why our military offers so many benefits is because they know pure patriotism isn't gonna cut it.
 
Consider this rare interview.
BGO- Son, why do you want to attend the Academy?
Candidate- Sir, I don't give a damn about defending you or this country. I just want to fly airplanes.

Now let's assume this individual is in the military flying airplanes. Is he serving and defending his country? Yes. Would I be proud of him? No. Am I thankfull that he is there? If he is doing his job correctly, you bet I am.

[/Rant On] Using this argument, I shouldn't have spent 20 years in the military. When I enlisted it wasn't to "serve my country". I needed a job and with no job skills, no education higher than HS (low scores to boot!), no money for a higher education and a desire to do something in medicine, I joined the Navy. 20 years, two declared wars, and a couple of conflicts later I retired. Did I continue to do it "to defend my country"? I never fired a weapon in anger, I never had formal training on how to kill someone. I learned how to keep a human being alive despite intense injuries, and I learned how to keep myself alive. It was a job, one that I enjoyed doing, and one that I could never have done if it wasn't for the military.

Does that make me unworthy of your pride?

If you go out and ask the majority of the young enlisted soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines the answer you will most often hear is the same one I had when I came in. Having spent time in the boiler rooms and engine rooms of ships, in foxholes and tents in the desert with young Marines, and on the flight line on shore and on ships, I can tell you that most just want to get the job done.

So do I run around waving my little flag every day? Nope. Am I proud of the uniform I wore, and that every other service member wears, regardless of the branch? Absolutely! Do I live in the greatest country on this little orb we call the earth? Yes!

I've lost many friends, shipmates and Marines during training accidents and in combat. None of them, as far as I knew ran around waving their little flags, but each one believed in what he/she was doing. They all entered the military for a job and a little adventure. Protecting their country was a part of that job, but not the primary motivation.

So I'm hoping that what others before me have done, what I have done, what those who are doing the job now, and those that will take the jobs in the future, regardless of their motivation for doing the job, are deserving of your pride. [/Rant off]
 
The example I gave was an individual who stated " I don't give a damn about defending this country". I find it hard to believe that 80% of our troops fall into that category.

That being said, I do realize that I tend to be overly idealistic at times, If any one was offended by my idealism, I apologize. My point is , ideals and beliefs are often too quickly cast aside and labeled as being irrelevant. JAM did not say that, she gave a very thoughtful and comprehesive posting of different reasons why people go into the military. For any one individual there probably multiple reasons. I am not saying that any one reason is better than another.

But if your job is to defend this country, and your viewpoint is " I don't give a damn about defending this country" then I am concerned. Also, I would not have any respect for this person. Ideals matter. But that doesn't mean you are not capable of performing your duties.

As per your request, I will tone down my idealism. This recent tangent has probably not been very helpful to parents and students.

Back to the pragmatic.
 
Oh gosh - don't tone down your idealism - neither should your daughter, nor should my daughter......my daughter was profoundly affected by 2001 as well - even as an 8th grader. She has a good friend who is a Marine on his second tour in Iraq right now. I think the fact that she has a good friend in Iraq is motivating her more right now rather than the big picture of defending her country.

In the big picture ideals matter. That is why our kids aren't off joining the Chinese Navy.

Sometimes, here and there, kids are nailed pretty hard for admitting they want the "free education" or they "want to travel" or they "want to get out of Podunk, USA" -- if they didn't have other motives I don't think most of them would stay.
When we visited West Point for the day my daughter never once said - "Gee, it would be great to surround myself with all these patriotic people". I heard things like - "No one is out of shape here", "The brigade formed up for lunch really fast" - "It would be cool to go to school with kids from all over the country" and "Go Army, Beat Navy is the answer to everything!"

If/when your daughter talks of those "other" benefits of attending a service academy - don't be too hard on her!
 
JAM, I appreciate your advice. I have stated that there are many reasons and motives for joining the military. I have also said that I didn't think that any one reason was any better than the other. That in fact there are probably multiple reasons for any one individual to serve.

In fact, Ret Navy HM, serving country, patriotism and flag waving doesn't even have to be in the mix. I respect that. I respect that individual.

You need to re-read my post. I am referring to someone who is in the military who stands up and says" I don't give a damn about defending this country".

That person, I do not respect. In fact, my response would be ,find another job.
 
Oh, by the way, because I am a certified computer moron, I don't know how to do those cool high-lighted quotes that you guys do. But go back and read my posts and you will find them.
 
You need to re-read my post. I am referring to someone who is in the military who stands up and says" I don't give a damn about defending this country".

That person, I do not respect. In fact, my response would be ,find another job.

I reread your posts. You were, in fact, mentioning a BGO interview, not someone who was already in the military.

gator guy said:
Consider this rare interview.
BGO- Son, why do you want to attend the Academy?
Candidate- Sir, I don't give a damn about defending you or this country. I just want to fly airplanes.

gator guy said:
This recent tangent has probably not been very helpful to parents and students.

To the contrary, I think this is a very helpful discussion and I am not picking on you. It was probably a good thing that I was banned on CC at the time last year when several parents tried to equate a SA appointment to a "divine calling", something akin to a call to the ministry or I would have been rebanned. It is attitudes such as these which causes these young men and women to feel that they belong on the pedestal which their parents have unfortunately placed them.

Yes, as JAM says, these kids want to play with the big toys. They want a challenge. They want a good, and free, education. They want a rewarding career. They want job security. They want the prestiege of being an officer. They want to associate with the best and the brightest. And yes, that includes the E-1 who joined to get away from a dead-end life. They want adventure. The list goes on. How far down the list does patriotism have to be before it equates to your hypothetical BGO interview?

I have been around Naval Aviation my entire adult life. Most of us, me included, would have resigned the day after we found out we were unable to fly. When I went into North Vietnam to pick up a downed pilot, patriotism was the last thing on my mind. I was just doing my job to help another Naval Aviator who was doing his job. I saw the aviators coming back from both Iraqi wars being embarrisngly thanked for their contributions. To a person they stated that they were only doing their jobs. The thanks, they avowed, should go to the grunts on the ground whom they were trying to protect.

JAM got it 100% correct in her first post when she said that the more real , the more concrete, a candidate's goals, the better his chance of meeting those goals. About July 15 of Plebe Summer at 3 AM, in a cold sweat, patriotism ain't gonna hack it. Just my 2 cents. And yes, with every single one of my interviews that the "just want to serve my country" statement is made, I dig until I find some substance. If it isn't there, the candidate is not prepared.

And lastly, throughout my Naval career, every single one of the 100 or so sailors I personally tried to get to reenlist, had I based my discussion solely on patriotism, I would have lost them all.
 
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Ok, we are going to beat this dead horse untill it's dog food.

Dog gone it. I still can't do those cool high-lighted quotes.

USNA 69, you state that I was only referring to a BGO interview. however, my very next sentence was"Now lets assume that this individual is in the military flying airplanes" Frankly, I don't think it matters.

"sir, I don't give a damn about defending you or this country. I just want to fly air planes". I don't respect the SA candidate that would feel that way and I don't respect the military officer that would feel that way.

Patriotism is not the issue. It is the antithesis of patriotism that I am referring to. The military officer, whose job it is to defend this country who states that he doesn't give a ****(sorry, I'm getting mad) about defending this country.

When you flew into North Vietnam to pick up a downed pilot, sure your primary concern was to save your buddy's butt. But in my mind you are a patriot whether you want that label or not. In the bigger picture, by saving a downed pilot, you have furthered the cause of defense of our country. Not to mention possibly saving someone's life.
 
You have just made a statement that does a huge disservice to those who have served and given their lives for our country by stating that you do not respect them. You, sir, are out of line.

Of course no one is going to come right out and state that they could give a crap about our country but many, if not most, when they list the reasons they are in the military, will not list patriotism, thesis or antithesis. At first, I simply thought we were arguing over semantics, but, alas, I now think you are totally misinformed. You should somehow find a way to apologize to our fine men and women who are defending our country, for whatever reason, so that you may make comments such as these.
 
Oh, by the way, because I am a certified computer moron, I don't know how to do those cool high-lighted quotes that you guys do. But go back and read my posts and you will find them.

Look down to the right hand bottom side of each post for the "Quote" button. Go back to the post you'd like to quote and click on the quote button. If you'd not like the entire quote & just use a sentence of it, just hightlight what you don't want & hit delete or use the back space to delete what you don't want. I hold the higher degree of computer moron so no need to beat yourself up. I once called my older son to come over and fix my speakers. Wasn't getting sound you see. He came over, rolled his eyes, then turned up the volume. True story.There. Now don't ya feel better! :biggrin:
 
I once called my older son to come over and fix my speakers. Wasn't getting sound you see. He came over, rolled his eyes, then turned up the volume. True story.There. Now don't ya feel better! :biggrin:

I lost sound. Rebooted. Reinstalled. Bought and installed a new sound card. Nothing. Was cleaning house last week. Plugged in my speakers. They now work great. Of course I also once bought a new TV and when I went to unplug the broken one, discovered that it was already unplugged.
 
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