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Kpwoman12

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Don't mean to complain, but sometimes the cadre do questionable things regarding plebe life. Would sometimes like to discuss things with the PC's CX's and CC's (going up the chain of command respectively) except that they are often unapproachable, can appear "two-faced" playing "favorites" when they feel like it, and will scrutinize those who ask questions when help or clarification is genuinely needed. Jumping the chain further can result in "why didn't you utilize the chain of command properly?" It feels like there is no where to turn to for legitimate complaints. HR can only offer generalizations, and say "use your chain of command." Does anyone know what the plebe rights are, if any? Is it in the reef points? Not just me, a lot of us are really struggling, with no where to turn, and it's affecting our academics severely. Sure, we can "figure it out" but it would be terrible to lose good classmates before we are able to. No one is safe. Any help/advice is appreciated.
 
Can you give an example? Not specific...but I think every plebe feels a little lost...especially this time of year. Are you talking academic help? Barracks life? Extracurricular?

My advice...although I went to a different academy...is start with some trusted classmates...then move to your team leader...and on up. If you play on a team ask your upperclass teammates or coach...if not on a team join one/even as a manager...those connections are priceless.

If your concern is health, sexual, or mental health related...if your direct chain of command is not working...then i say you can jump it. Maybe not to the superintendent, but jump from squad to company level officer.
 
I agree with @airbornedaddy - examples would help. The SA system is designed to overwhelm. It is designed to give you more than you can handle to teach you how to prioritize and make tough choices.

Most SA students did not struggle in High School. The load was manageable and your sights were set on loftier goals. Academics were not typically difficult. Now, things are different. The academic firehose is on full blast with more than one challenging subject. Layered on top of that, you now have this military regimental life thing that is new and you find questionable value in. Additionally, intercollegiate practice is starting up and that could be another time commitment. In the end, you have more to do in 24 hours than you can fit in. In an attempt to "do more" you steal from your sleep time to get more time to study or shine shoes or iron a shirt or learn regimental knowledge. This creates a vicious cycle in which you have even less cognitive capacity because you are running on fumes. Academics suffer. Regimental life suffers. Sports suffer. And all the while you thought you were "doing more" and were sacrificing to fit it all in.

The end game here is where the lesson is. You tried everything and were overwhelmed. You reached out for help and learned about new resources. You will choose sleep and find things start to turn around. You will prioritize things not on comfort but what will get you kicked out. Regimental extras will likely be found to be less important than academics. You need to try, but it takes a lot to get kicked out for it. Academics on the other hand will be swift in most cases and that should be the priority.

For rule follwers, achievers, and competitive people - the typical SA student profile - this entire metamorphosis feels REALLY WEIRD and unnatural. In the end, you will be standing watch on a billion dollar ship with bells and alarms going off and people freaking out --- but you will be calm, you will see through the chaos and have a keen ability to isolate the critical needs of the moment and you will execute on your training.

It is a funny thing, but it is actually by design.
 
Chaplains can be effective observers that live outside the CoC with experience in your environment and the ability to skip rank if called for. Don't necessarily count on them to fix things for you, but if you really see no alternative they might provide a comforting sounding board and offer good advice.

EDIT: Also, this might be the time you and your teammates should be turning to one another for support and assistance. The system might just be working slowly, but even if it isn't you all need to get through this and together is usually easiest.
 
I agree with the above advice. When you get five messages and have been a member of this forum for a week, you will be allowed to send private messages. Please PM me and I can offer some confidential help through my DD class of '21. Hang in there. It will get better.
 
Great advice already, will 2nd the Chaplains. They are confidential, have seen it all, and can help tremendously with perspective.

‘Freshman’ year anywhere is challenging...I believe it’s the most personal growth a young adult will see. Add being at a SA? And it’s like being thrown to the wolves. Sink or swim!! Hang in there though. We are in tough times, via COVID, which probably adds something to the pressures/stressors either directly or indirectly. IE at USNA, they aren’t allowed off the yard to decompress. But those ‘normal’ times are on the horizon. Find someone to talk to that can help you sort stuff out. I would tell my own to find a trusted upperclass, who knows how things roll, or a Chaplain.
 
Thanks guys.

I understand plebe year is not supposed to be easy and that there are a lot of stressors. It can take a lot to make it through. I understand that there is a difference between big issues that need to be dealt with regardless of coc such as sexual harassment, assault, etc. There are also little things such as the cadre yelling at plebe schmuckatelli for not shining shoes or things like this.

What Im trying to do is navigate the in-between. There are some things I think that probably aren't allowed that they do to us, and should probably be addressed. But I am not entirely sure, and don't want to look like a pansy and stick out in a bad way towards the cadre for inquiring (this has happened many times, and it seems like cadre in some cadre "gaslight" us consistently and show no mercy).

I hate to give examples for the sake of anonymity, but I guess I need to. We're starting to get hour-and-a-half long cleaning parties (on top of cleaning stations), and we're not allowed to leave for studying, even if we have tests the next day unless leadership feels "generous." Regarding what we clean, we had to clean a room that had recently become biohazardous and was clearly closed off and not meant for plebes to clean with little to no protection (pt gear). Speaking of cleaning stations, they make us take longer to do cleaning stations than they have been; which combined with extra musters, delays plebes to the point that often we don't get to eat, and have to save it for later (if we are lucky that Delano opens in time for the small gap that we can get food). 2nd classmen PT-ing us when they're not allowed (not complaining about PT itself, rather that it seems very hypocritical to punish us for so many little things, yet when upperclassmen break more serious rules unknowingly, they can cover it up more easily and not be held accountable; this seems more serious when they drink alcohol, and try to get plebes to do things. Upperclassmen are then able to place blame on the plebes).
There have been slightly more serious issues, but for anonymity sake, will not disclose at this time.


No-one else really knows what to do, so relying on other plebes is kind of out. Finding upperclassmen to trust is difficult as well. They can seem safer to vent to and relate in one moment, and then fly off the handle/side with cadre the next second as needed. It's a tricky situation. We don't know the rules for what upperclassmen can and can't do to us, and what we can/can't do formally in "retaliation/defense."

Besides the chaplain; are there any other recommendations ?
 
I do not know the answer to your question about whether this stuff is allowed.

I would say that if, indeed, you were cleaning up a room of known biohazardous materials, you would be more than justified in raising this as a safety concern with cadre; looking for a solution that protects you. If addressed this way, and it's not allowed, I would expect someone to jump all over it. If it is allowed you've given constructive criticism on a potential problem. Just one man's two cents.
 
If you can tell me what company you are in, I can point you to an upperclassman you can trust in your company. You are not alone. I know there are many upperclassmen who are on your side and who are offering support and taking complaints up the chain of command. Your day off last week was a result of my DD and others taking action about how plebes are being treated during lockdown. In the opinion of these Midshipmen, Plebes are getting hit harder this year because that is how some upperclassmen are taking out their frustrations with not being able to leave campus.
 
I just talked to my DD. No one in 2nd Co. she would trust with these issues. Have other ideas, but nothing I can post on a public forum. Please PM me when this forum gives you that permission.
 
It is easy for us Alumni, particularly ones who graduated during the previous millennium, to offer advice similar to "suck it up buttercup" but I personally find this very instructive as a learning opportunity both in leadership and some of the challenges you will face post-graduation.

I personally have had success bringing issues to the attention of poor leaders by being passive aggressive and phrasing things in the form of a question. "Sir/Ma'am, I was trying to find this in the manual so I wouldn't have to ask you so many questions but I can't find it. Can you show me where it is?". "I was looking for the ISM procedure so I could help with training the staff but I couldn't find it. Can you provide me a copy so I can assist you". "The regulations I read say we are suppossed to have study hours right now, I couldn't find the section that says cleaning stations supersede that. Can you show me that section."

I saw a thread on gCaptain that referenced an email with "plebe rules". I personally found the listed rules very similar, borderline exactly the same, as those I lived through during the said previous millennium. However, there can be a huge difference between the letter of the rule and the application of the rule.

For an example, an hour and a half long cleaning party does not strike me as excessive but an hour and half long cleaning party every day is. Missing meals is definitely no bueno and anything without proper PPE should definitely be all stop. In the industry there is a thing called "stop work authority" which means someone can stop the work to address any safety issues. Industry says that everyone has stop work authority but it is frequently questioned if that is true or just lip service. What will they do at KP if you tried to exercise stop work authority? I would certainly be curious how they would respond if you took the opportunity to stand up and speak up for you and your peers even if not popular with your superiors, especially using industry terms. I know that choice is difficult and it seems impossible sitting where you are but it can be effective.

In my sailing days I had several times tried to order a safety harness for going aloft only to be refused. One night the Master told me to go up the mast in the dark and rain to change a Navigation light. I told him no, that in no circumstance would I do that without a safety harness. He questioned my manhood but I stood firm. He ended up doing it and grumbled the whole time but we got that safety harness in our next delivery.

Also keep in mind that MIDN officers should not to be considered as experts in leadership. MIDN officer billets are leadership laboratories where they have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. There will be plenty of mistakes at KP and from what I have seen in my career, plenty of mistakes AFTER KP too.

Remember ... ACTA NON VERBA
 
Make sure you ask around for help. 2co has had some screw-ups since the last pkt but hopefully all this will get better soon. Ask around with teachers/mentors/coaches if you feel more comfortable doing that. PM me if you want and maybe my company can help you guys out if it's that unbearable.

- fellow plebe candidate
 
OP, if you need help immediately, talk to the CHRO or RHRO. If you want stuff changed, talk to PC or CC... If it doesn't chnge and it needs to, talk to CO. Cleaning parties (including "biohazardous" heads), writing SOC's, and PT sessions are not reasons to post on a forum publicly like this. Please address the problems in-house. You are going through the same stuff that every other plebe is going through. - 21'er
 
KPEngineer said:
It is easy for us Alumni, particularly ones who graduated during the previous millennium, to offer advice similar to "suck it up buttercup" but I personally find this very instructive as a learning opportunity both in leadership and some of the challenges you will face post-graduation.

I personally have had success bringing issues to the attention of poor leaders by being passive aggressive and phrasing things in the form of a question. "Sir/Ma'am, I was trying to find this in the manual so I wouldn't have to ask you so many questions but I can't find it. Can you show me where it is?". "I was looking for the ISM procedure so I could help with training the staff but I couldn't find it. Can you provide me a copy so I can assist you". "The regulations I read say we are suppossed to have study hours right now, I couldn't find the section that says cleaning stations supersede that. Can you show me that section."

I saw a thread on gCaptain that referenced an email with "plebe rules". I personally found the listed rules very similar, borderline exactly the same, as those I lived through during the said previous millennium. However, there can be a huge difference between the letter of the rule and the application of the rule.

For an example, an hour and a half long cleaning party does not strike me as excessive but an hour and half long cleaning party every day is. Missing meals is definitely no bueno and anything without proper PPE should definitely be all stop. In the industry there is a thing called "stop work authority" which means someone can stop the work to address any safety issues. Industry says that everyone has stop work authority but it is frequently questioned if that is true or just lip service. What will they do at KP if you tried to exercise stop work authority? I would certainly be curious how they would respond if you took the opportunity to stand up and speak up for you and your peers even if not popular with your superiors, especially using industry terms. I know that choice is difficult and it seems impossible sitting where you are but it can be effective.

In my sailing days I had several times tried to order a safety harness for going aloft only to be refused. One night the Master told me to go up the mast in the dark and rain to change a Navigation light. I told him no, that in no circumstance would I do that without a safety harness. He questioned my manhood but I stood firm. He ended up doing it and grumbled the whole time but we got that safety harness in our next delivery.

Also keep in mind that MIDN officers should not to be considered as experts in leadership. MIDN officer billets are leadership laboratories where they have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes. There will be plenty of mistakes at KP and from what I have seen in my career, plenty of mistakes AFTER KP too.

Remember ... ACTA NON VERBA
Click to expand...

I could not have said this any better. I know that in my time (and probably yours, too) we had no way to communicate our grievances to our parents or anyone outside of the Academy. And those were the days of no AC, Plebe Beats and Plebe Outs. I did see that same "Plebe Rules" post and kind of chuckled. I didn't feel it was worthy of a comment. I certainly recall from my Indoc experience, not having enough time to do what was thrown at me, especially when it came to Plebe Knowledge, cleaning stations. . . on, and those two minute showers. . . but missing meals, even with the Delano food? Nope, that should not happen.
 
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