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She going to give it a try?
History Being Made.....
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She going to give it a try?
Agree it is an expectation, not grooming. Believe me,
some of those women in the first class were not groomed. Some were not hand picked and fought hard to get there.
Also an interesting point your bring up... many of the women in the integrated class received the news RS opening up late September of last year....many did not have time to train and prepare fully for the task. As you mentioned, guys prepare well in advance because they know RS is in their future. Would have to think IBOLC is also a bit beneficial leading into RS. And yes, my grad would love the opportunity. She gave up her RTAC slot. She got the slot with NO grooming but turned it down because her recently tabbed friends told her she was not ready...telling her while physically capable she needed more field training opportunities etc. Physically, she was more than prepared and did it all on her own, no trainers etc. She was not the only one doing it on her own. Hopefully, she will get another chance but not with the next round as deployments happen. Again, I followed this integration very closely and have gained lots of inside information... not all of the first women in the integration were "groomed." I tire of reading how these woman were all groomed...yes, some were I know that, but definitely not all.
They all were REQUIRED to go to RTAC just like all National Guard are required to go. I also believe active duty males who are not in physically demanding environments have also had the chance to go to RTAC as well. Will be interesting to see if during next round if RTAC is no longer a prerequisite (or special train up) for women.
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Sledge
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You know everything is above-board and legitimate when a gag order is implemented.
Price? You can't put a price on the "feels."
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Hawk, agree with all. It has been a media circus show...and unfortunately the tab is probably tainted for all (both females and guys) in the minds of many. But you have to remember, the females did not ask for this either and also just want to do their jobs. And yes, it was a very tough call for her, a decision made with great thought. She had friends that were being given excellent train up as they were at larger posts offering support and training. She wanted the best candidates to go and she was not confident at the time she was the best. I believe you need more than being a PT stud with a huge heart to get thru RS, I believe you need confidence as well and she lacked the confidence in the field/tactical arena. Honestly, as a parent I was thankful she made that tough call..as I read the often cruel and nasty comments on some of the media out there I cringe. Though I will say, her tabbed mentor friends' attitudes, some of which were in this class with females, have been absolutely refreshing to hear about. As a parent, personally I did not want this for my daughter but it is her life not mine. I also did not want this because I feared she would also be negatively impacted by the politics. And I agree, not passing RS could be a career killer for an IN male, but I do not believe the women should bear responsibility for that. My daughter, like many, sought the training because she wants to be the BEST leader she can be, it is a leadership school. She seeks to get to know her subordinates and peers and the shared experience of RS allows her to that as well. The insight gained as well as the training is valuable. As a parent, who has a daughter who talks about the possibility of attaching to infantry units, or who has considered CST's recently I only want my daughter to have the best training available...training that will possibly give her the confidence to keep her and those around her more safe. Many of the comments on the media circus often talk about how the women want this for selfish reasons...I know many women that truly want this for selfless reasons. Personally, as a mother I would have to say I would want this for my daughter for selfish reasons...I want her to have the best training available to her..just as her brothers at arm often have. I also believe, if you had a daughter planning her career in the Army you would also want her to have the best training as well especially now with combat arms possibly opening up more. Lines get blurry, things are not always black and white, and politics are rapidly changing the military environment unfortunately, ....I do not want a gray area to put my daughter and those around her at risk. If your son had females attached to his unit in the future, wouldn't you want her to have equal training as well. I want my daughter surrounded by the best trained...yep, I am selfish.
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Agreed on all, MomWPgirl. And to be clear, I know the current male crop of 2LT's headed that way are not spending time agonizing on this. Nor should anything I post be viewed as making them or their female counterparts victims.
It's just a sea change that I wish they all did not have to deal with, and I'll admit that selfish for me to think that.
BTW, apologies for the munged up quoting. Here's my response as it was intended to post:
Perhaps groomed is the wrong word to use, though some clearly were.
Here's the difference... the current batch of new 2LT's in IBOLC hoping to get a RS slot are not there because of opportunity... it's in their orders. RS is not a goal or end in itself, it's something they have to do to be able to go to their units and get a platoon.
They are one of dozens, literally over a hundred in a given phase. Any prestige or even OML from their past is gone. They might as well be cub scouts: ROTC, USMA, and OCS all treated the same. Some have minimal field experience, others are 10 year prior enlisted Ranger Batt Boys fresh out of OCS. Most are in between. They all picked up trash and cleaned buildings while snowbirding waiting for IBOLC to start along with PT. No coaching, no one rooting for them except their family and maybe some buddies. But even that is competitive, they all want a shot at an earlier RS slot, etc. Peer review effect is already taking place.
While there is an aspect of "prep" for RS, it's like CBT/Beast is "Prep" for USMA... it's a filter, a standard, and training. And as much focused on job skills they will need as IN 2LT's. As far as RS prep, it's apparently the same content as RTAC, but is more spread out.
This would have been a tough call. Before the spotlight hit most of the attrition was physical and in RAP week. If she was truly ready physically and had an RTAC slot, I don't know how else she could have prepared. (But that's just conjecture from an outsider on my part)
Then again, if the early ranger experience is any indication, even serious PT capable individuals with USMA pre-ranger prep + RTAC are having a harder time relative to those who did IBOLC then RS. But there are mixed views, early ranger is being heavily promoted by some. But I know of USMA 2014 grads who were well prepped and did the early-ranger and just now finished RTAC+RS+IBOLC. (14 mths??).
RTAC is not the only pre-ranger. And again, for many there's a different perspective: Pre-ranger is not done as an opportunity... it's to make sure candidates are prepared. But it's also a filter to make sure that RS slots go to candidates who know what to expect, have learned the basic skills, and have a reasonable chance of making it through RAP. So I don't consider RTAC/Pre-ranger special treatment.
I'm not opposed to qualified candidates of either sex being allowed to go if there were no changes to the process and standards. But that's not what is happening... just the press presence alone has changed the process. Gag orders on cadre. Generals walking the lanes and making go-no go decisions instead of RI's. The worst pass rates for males in a decade. And now, by all reports, the president will be at graduation. With even supporters realizing this means it is very likely the 2 female candidates getting a go is a foregone conclusion at this point. At least one will. And she deserves to be able to wear that tab free of political taint, which will never happen now.
This is a classic example of "observer effect". Would the washout rate on males have been as high with no females in the class? Or were they being even stricter on males so there could be no claim of bias? As a parent, I feel for the males in the classes, as they did not ask for this and just want to get on with their jobs. Their tabs may be tainted a bit, perhaps unfairly.
All of this is not intended to be a slight to the two women who have done amazing things. Things the majority of the male army does not and cannot do. And at a personal level, if your DD is ready, I hope she gets her chance and does well.
But as a policy or social experiment, what price for probably 1 out of several thousand of females to tab? I don't know the answer to that question. But my gut sense is this is not going to help mainstream females much and may compromise the RS gold standard. But I could be wrong. And it's clear this will proceed anyway.
As a parent, I can understand why you would want your DD to have this opportunity. And I hope you also understand as a fellow parent why those of us with DS's in the process would be concerned that they will be negatively impacted by the politics. If your DD does not graduate, she will be respected for trying and getting as far as she got. If one of our IN DS's do not graduate independent of reason, it's a career killer. Big difference.
It's just a sea change that I wish they all did not have to deal with, and I'll admit that selfish for me to think that.
BTW, apologies for the munged up quoting. Here's my response as it was intended to post:
Perhaps groomed is the wrong word to use, though some clearly were.
Here's the difference... the current batch of new 2LT's in IBOLC hoping to get a RS slot are not there because of opportunity... it's in their orders. RS is not a goal or end in itself, it's something they have to do to be able to go to their units and get a platoon.
They are one of dozens, literally over a hundred in a given phase. Any prestige or even OML from their past is gone. They might as well be cub scouts: ROTC, USMA, and OCS all treated the same. Some have minimal field experience, others are 10 year prior enlisted Ranger Batt Boys fresh out of OCS. Most are in between. They all picked up trash and cleaned buildings while snowbirding waiting for IBOLC to start along with PT. No coaching, no one rooting for them except their family and maybe some buddies. But even that is competitive, they all want a shot at an earlier RS slot, etc. Peer review effect is already taking place.
While there is an aspect of "prep" for RS, it's like CBT/Beast is "Prep" for USMA... it's a filter, a standard, and training. And as much focused on job skills they will need as IN 2LT's. As far as RS prep, it's apparently the same content as RTAC, but is more spread out.
This would have been a tough call. Before the spotlight hit most of the attrition was physical and in RAP week. If she was truly ready physically and had an RTAC slot, I don't know how else she could have prepared. (But that's just conjecture from an outsider on my part)
Then again, if the early ranger experience is any indication, even serious PT capable individuals with USMA pre-ranger prep + RTAC are having a harder time relative to those who did IBOLC then RS. But there are mixed views, early ranger is being heavily promoted by some. But I know of USMA 2014 grads who were well prepped and did the early-ranger and just now finished RTAC+RS+IBOLC. (14 mths??).
RTAC is not the only pre-ranger. And again, for many there's a different perspective: Pre-ranger is not done as an opportunity... it's to make sure candidates are prepared. But it's also a filter to make sure that RS slots go to candidates who know what to expect, have learned the basic skills, and have a reasonable chance of making it through RAP. So I don't consider RTAC/Pre-ranger special treatment.
I'm not opposed to qualified candidates of either sex being allowed to go if there were no changes to the process and standards. But that's not what is happening... just the press presence alone has changed the process. Gag orders on cadre. Generals walking the lanes and making go-no go decisions instead of RI's. The worst pass rates for males in a decade. And now, by all reports, the president will be at graduation. With even supporters realizing this means it is very likely the 2 female candidates getting a go is a foregone conclusion at this point. At least one will. And she deserves to be able to wear that tab free of political taint, which will never happen now.
This is a classic example of "observer effect". Would the washout rate on males have been as high with no females in the class? Or were they being even stricter on males so there could be no claim of bias? As a parent, I feel for the males in the classes, as they did not ask for this and just want to get on with their jobs. Their tabs may be tainted a bit, perhaps unfairly.
All of this is not intended to be a slight to the two women who have done amazing things. Things the majority of the male army does not and cannot do. And at a personal level, if your DD is ready, I hope she gets her chance and does well.
But as a policy or social experiment, what price for probably 1 out of several thousand of females to tab? I don't know the answer to that question. But my gut sense is this is not going to help mainstream females much and may compromise the RS gold standard. But I could be wrong. And it's clear this will proceed anyway.
As a parent, I can understand why you would want your DD to have this opportunity. And I hope you also understand as a fellow parent why those of us with DS's in the process would be concerned that they will be negatively impacted by the politics. If your DD does not graduate, she will be respected for trying and getting as far as she got. If one of our IN DS's do not graduate independent of reason, it's a career killer. Big difference.
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Fair points, all. I think there were some who did ask, and are out to prove a point. But that's just based on appearances and interviews.
Probably made the right call then, by all accounts. DS was coached that ultimately, the ones who make it through RS are the ones who decided they would before they showed up. Tremendous oversimplification, but the point being, outside of prep and training, you have to never quit.
I understand. And would agree on the point about training. I don't agree with the political forcing, as we are at risk of compromising the whole, and all our kids lose.
I found this comment from a cadet who is now in the IN pipeline illuminating: "I know female cadets who are probably capable of tabbing and could be great IN officers. But they are not the ones pushing this. They did well in Sandhurst & Sapper, but learned this is not what they want to do for a living. The irony is that many of the ones making the most noise about this issue are the same ones with mediocre APFT, struggle with the IOCT, and have never attempted the competitive routes offered to them like Sapper, Sandhurst, etc".
He was not equating Sapper and Sandhurst with RS. Just that if you don't try (and succeed) in those, why even bring up RS?
But also that if the standard was maintained, and free of politics, most of the males are accepting and even supportive.
I did not view your post as implying victimhood on anyone attempting RS. They are all rock stars in my book...those that earn the tab and those that do not. I support them all and write many letters to my DD's peers who attend, both male and female. I also agree most of the current crop of RS students are accepting and supportive. I apologize if I also came off as defensive. I have followed this so very closely since the beginning with lots of inside info into the selection process and as the months have gone on and I continue to read disparaging comments on media outlets and social media...well I just get fed up. If I had a nickel for every time these women were called the C word or the the B word by past and present military members I would be rich. I just don't understand that mentality. Lots of generalizations being made and it is unfair to all. This is all new and very controversial but there is bound to be some missteps and hiccups along the way. When I read generalizations about how the RTAC slots were given to women I cringe. My grad had to jump through more hoops than most males to get the chance...the stories I could tell. I have kept my opinions pretty quiet on this forum as I know they will not be received well by many but after months and months of following this I guess I needed to unload and to that I apologize if I came across as defensive. The media attention of this and especially the comments do not paint a favorable picture for a Mom with a daughter in the military. Reading them can be fear inducing at times. I also agree with you that some of the most vocal might not be the most competitive or qualified....there are those with an agenda. I can assure you my grad and her friends have no agenda...they just want to be the best leaders they can be. On a side note..she tabbed the IOCT, did Sandhurst, Airborne and sought opportunities during her time at WP.
Also, of note the qualified females seeking this are often the quiet ones because they do not want to be attached to many of the generalizations. They often abhor those loud less qualified with agendas.
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Well, not every Infantry 2LTs wanted to branch Infantry. Not every Infantry 2LTs wants to attend Ranger school. Not every Infantry 2LTs are 6 feet tall, 200 lbs, physical studs. I find it interesting that there is a perception that any females that want to try out Ranger school have overcome mountain of obstacles, but males don't. Intestinal fortitude doesn't belong to any gender.
p On a side note..she tabbed the IOCT, did Sandhurst, Airborne and sought opportunities during her time at WP.
On a side note, the above is what's expected of ALL cadets.
Love this!!! And wholeheartedly agree. I hope I didn't invoke that all females had to overcome obstacles while males did not. Typically the perception I perceive in forums, comments and the non-propaganda media etc is the women were given the opportunities and numerous concessions have been made for them. To me the comment sections on articles often speak more volumes than the articles themselves...especially when active duty military are commenting.
Expected of all, but not necessarily done by all. i.e. I know many cadets that branched IN and did not do Sandhurst etc. Why must a female be expected to do this to earn respect?
Sledge
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Maybe, being active duty, they know something, like what it's actually like to be in an infantry unit.
Probably so..but their comments often do nothing to solve anything. Often, their comments lower the reputation of all in the military. I have enlightened my civilian friends to read the comments posted on social media and in articles and honestly they are appalled with some of the attitudes expressed. Calling these women C's and B's does nothing to promote professionalism in the military. Sledge, I ask you if your IN son had a female attached to his unit wouldn't you also want her trained to the best of her ability? Whether you agree with females in combat arms or not....these changes, right or wrong, are being considered. It is one team...many forget that.
USMCGrunt
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I am behind... is the current course over and did two women end up passing?
Can anyone here comment with authority on the situation? Were the women afforded any additional chances for make ups? Were standards lowered? Were they treated exactly the same as the men or were there differences? (This is not a veiled political statement - I see things in the press and hear things but as MomWPgirl says they are often written with an agenda)
Can anyone here comment with authority on the situation? Were the women afforded any additional chances for make ups? Were standards lowered? Were they treated exactly the same as the men or were there differences? (This is not a veiled political statement - I see things in the press and hear things but as MomWPgirl says they are often written with an agenda)
NorwichDad
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I also enjoy reading the comments to the stories. Very funny sometimes. Though you can hardly confirm the authors are active duty(See TPG thread). Honestly those in Infantry Units are a really busy with their own lives to really worry about women passing or failing ranger school. I know most of them would be supportive of anyone, man or woman with the Tab. I do think they(active duty) are really much more concerned with their next apartment, duty station, car or paying for their kids braces.
JMHO
Sledge
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Not in authority, but my understanding is that the class ended yesterday. Word should be anytime now.
Sledge
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You're worried about "professionalism," i.e. the feels. I'm worried about capability.
It's going to hurt your feelings, but I advised him to seek out Infantry if for no other purpose than to stay away from the females as long as possible. He may listen to his grouchy old man or he may not. The kids these days are different.