Honest Opinion.....

usna1985 said:
That was our class motto -- I wonder if they recycle them.:confused:

Pardon my ignorance, but is band really a course? I thought it was an ECA.

Let me be brutally honest here . . . you may not like what I'm telling you, but I'm going to say it anyway. If your son is really, really interested in USNA, skip band and take the math/science courses on your list. I'm sure he loves band. I'm sure it provides leadership. But, USNA doesn't care all that much about band and band leadership is . . . [shrug] not a huge deal.

I don't mean to insult all of you band-types out there. As someone who is not the least bit musically inclined, I have great respect for those who can read music, play an instrument, and march at the same time. However, it's not really going to help you in the USNA admissions process. In the military, music is largely performed by the enlisted ranks, who are really good at it. Thus, having officers who are musically gifted isn't that important.

I know the above goes against my typical advice, which is to do the ECAs that interest you rather than what will help get you into an SA. But that doesn't mean you should substitute what USNA considers a "fluff" course/ECA in place of a "real" math/science course. Also, the OP already has some issues with standardized tests. One way to help offset those is doing well in hardcore math and science classes. While a "band" course won't hurt if it's your 6th or 7th course, I wouldn't want it to be one of my 5 unless I already was super-strong academically.

The above said, if the young man is iffy about USNA and thinks he might want to attend a civilian college and be active in the band [and there is nothing wrong with this as a Plan B], then he might want to stick with the course and take his chances on doing well on the 3 math/science courses he's taking and working hard to improve his SAT/ACT scores.
Click to expand...

I can understand where you are coming from, I really didn't understand it until my son was involved!! But I have learned and I totally get it now and will try to explain.

Band is not just playing music and marching around, especially being a Field Commander/Drum Major....I would have to say it is one of the best Leadership positions in High School.

Field Commander/Drum Major
My son attended George Parks Drum Major academy to learn the skills he needed to perform/teach.

1) Leadership - This is HUGE part of the position....
-My son leads 80 High Schoolers (Seniors to Incoming Freshman), The students look up to him on field and off. He earns their respect and they really look up to him.

-He teaches them to march, from the basics of technique, toe lift, posture to reading drill and moving around the field in sync, all 80 kids. He corrects them, praises them. This is not straight marching but marching and performing a show. They do straight marching also,but as practice, listening to commands from the field commander and having march off's to keep them attentive and used to moving with commands.

-When they are performing, ALL eyes are on the Field Commander, he runs the show. He makes decisions that affect all 80 students, striving to be the best and winning! They compete against other high schools, and also to acheive Distinguished Rating in thier ability.

2)Responsibility -
-He has to know how to march, how to direct, how to observe the band and how to LEAD!
-He must know the music, all the instruments, as he has to direct EVERYONE during performances.
-The Field Commander reports directly to the Band Director - he takes orders and performs them.

3)Dedication/Physical Exertion
-Didn't think band has Physical Exertion....during Summer Band Camp, they practice from 8-5 daily for 2 weeks. Learning to march, music, work as a team. They run, do push ups....thier conditioning has to be good...consider they are on the field moving while playing an instrument.

-After band camp, they practice and practice, redoing, doing, until perfect. You can't miss practice, as everyone is counting on each other. Practicing as much if not more than the sports teams.

4) Discipline
-This definitely teaches discipline, I have seen kids so tired they want to quit, but when the Field Commander calls ATTENTION....they stand tall!

-Discipline being a Field Commander/Drum Major....Showing you can do it, and continuing to teach others and move as a team until they get the confidence. It is not easy!! Band members definitely have to have determination and a strong will to succeed and the Field Commander has to keep this focus.

Here is a You tube video of a band, (not my son's band) so you can get an idea what all this work leads up to....the person on the podium in front of the band is the Field Commander. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyvZKG4i6Ro&feature=related

I am so glad that you brought this up, it just shows when my son completes his application he should definitely "explain" band to USNA.....it really is not just "Fluff" and may be labeled extra curricular.....but this leadership position could go up against sports leadership position and WIN hands down!!!

This leadership position is also earned by trying out and having judges not affiliated with the program. You have to be good at what you do or you are not chosen to be the Field Commander.

I hope this has helped you understand Band, especially the Field Commander position.
If you have any questions just let me know!
Suzie
p.s. My son is definitely not iffy about USNA, he just loves to be in charge and the challenges of being a Field Commander!
 
Luigi59 said:
1. AP Calculus
2. Honors Calculus
3. Calculus
4. Pre-Calculus

Having no exposure to calculus in high school can be a big red flag.
Click to expand...

He has Pre Calculus now (A) (forgot to put on the original post) and will have AP Calculus his senior year. He's good at math.....didn't test too well in it...but will be remedied soon at next ACT test.

The big question was more Physics or AP Chemistry and from another post AP Chemistry definitely was the most suggested....It makes sense to us now!!
Thanks,
Suzie
 
I have to say I agree with the OP here. I participated both in sports and in band in school. Band taught me far more about teamwork, leadership and responsibility than any sport. The difference is, sports do not take up a class period. I think USNA1985 is concerned about the limited number of class periods with really important classes on the line. Also, he knows more about what the academy looks for than I could ever know. However, as a mom, there is no way I would ever ask my kid to step down from being field commander to take another course! I looked up to the two drum majors our band had during my school years more than the football players, baseball players, basketball players and even more than our valedictorian. I know they gained my admiration because of the leadership qualities required in that position. Congratulations to your son!

I realized recently that your son is a junior and will be applying to USNA later this year. If he has time, I would really look into taking one of those sciences at the college level, maybe even during the summer. That way he'll have both the course and the college experience and will not have to sacrifice any classes next year. Oh, and keep repeating those SAT and ACT tests until he gets the score he wants!
 
Suzie, I sent you a PM.

For the others reading this thread, please understand that what matters is what USNA thinks, not what you think -- or what I think.

I happen to think statistics is a very valuable course and one, I might add, that USNA not only offers but requires for certain majors. Nonetheless, USNA has stated they are not impressed with h.s. statistics and you should not take it in place of math, science, language or English.

What I post is my best effort to relay USNA's approach as they have relayed it over time to alums and BGOs; it's rarely my personal opinion unless I caveat it as such.

With that in mind, USNA considers band an ECA, NOT a sport, I don't care how much physical exertion it requires. Leading the band will count for something, but probably not as much as a sports team captain (whether it should or not is a different question). Civilian colleges may well view things differently; USNA is not a civilian college.

One other thing . . . the time commitment for band seems to make it impossible for those kids to do "real" sports. This presents a double whammy in that you are doing something about which USNA is somewhat ambivalent (band) and not doing something USNA prizes (sports). That is not a good combination. If band is a major part of your h.s. life AND you want to have a good shot at USNA, be sure to participate in at least one "real" sport -- preferably one involving running -- and at leat one other ECA in which you have signficant activity. Failing to do so could jeopardize your chances for an appointment -- I have seen it happen, sad to say.
 
Last edited:
usna1985 said:
For the others reading this thread, please understand that what matters is what USNA thinks, not what you think -- or what I think.
Click to expand...

That is one of the most profound things mentioned on this thread. I would suggest that your son do his best to describe all of the things mentioned with regard to the drum major experience in the narrative portion of his application. It can't hurt to highlight it; however, in the end, as USNA1985 said, it is USNA's opinion that matters on the value of that experience.

All that said, if your son loves being in band, I hope he continues to perform...I wouldn't quit doing something you love purely due to the potential for SA admissions. In high school I quit doing drama, which I thoroughly enjoy, in order to pursue track and field (which I did not enjoy as much, and am nowhere near as gifted in) because I thought it would help me get into USMA. I played football as well, but thought I needed to be a year-round athlete to get accepted into one of the SAs. Well, not only didn't it matter, I missed out on doing something I really liked to do. Just my .02
 
usna1985 said:
One other thing . . . the time commitment for band seems to make it impossible for those kids to do "real" sports. This presents a double whammy in that you are doing something about which USNA is somewhat ambivalent (band) and not doing something USNA prizes (sports). That is not a good combination. If band is a major part of your h.s. life AND you want to have a good shot at USNA, be sure to participate in at least one "real" sport -- preferably one involving running -- and at leat one other ECA in which you have signficant activity. Failing to do so could jeopardize your chances for an appointment -- I have seen it happen, sad to say.
Click to expand...

My son does sports also, he was on Soccer middle school to Jr year, made Varsity his freshman year. Started full time swimming this past fall. Always has been a swimmer since age 6, was team captain for his club, Yes he was the top swimmer, leading scorer, but Team Captain added up to leading stretching.... yes he was a role model etc.....but the leadership is nothing like the band.

He is very physically fit.....showed me this weekend he has his pullups up to 18....

I was only trying to explain about Band, not that many people really understand....... thats all!! Not trying to prove a point but making people aware!!

Suzie
 
PositiveThinking, do you mean phys ed and band are at the same time, or does your school have all the sports teams practice during the same period as band? Or perhaps you are talking about after-school band practice? In my experience, both when I was in school and with my kids, sports participation was an after-school activity, but phys ed was during a class period. Just curious as that's the first time I've heard of that.

Suzie, does your son still play soccer? I think that would be really helpful to him. All the running in soccer really does make a difference. My older son is an amazing swimmer (fastest in his spec ops training group) and both of my boys are very good at sit ups and push ups, but my younger son (a soccer player) has much more endurance during a run. From what I've read on here, running is very important, so I think your soccer player probably would have an advantage there (unless he is the goalie, of course ;-).
 
usna1985 said:
That was our class motto -- I wonder if they recycle them.:confused:

Pardon my ignorance, but is band really a course? I thought it was an ECA.

The above said, if the young man is iffy about USNA and thinks he might want to attend a civilian college and be active in the band [and there is nothing wrong with this as a Plan B], then he might want to stick with the course and take his chances on doing well on the 3 math/science courses he's taking and working hard to improve his SAT/ACT scores.
Click to expand...

At West Point, each class selects its own class motto, and they usually rhyme (hard to do now in the "teens"). After much deliberation, ours was selected to be "No Task Too Great - '88" and class crest was made, etc. Later in the year WP was contacted by some members of the class of '68 complaining that we'd recycled their motto. Oops! :redface: Can't believe no one looked into previous ones to make sure that didn't happen! What could we tell them? Great minds think alike!

Back on topic, at my sons' schools, band is a class. And you can't participate in it without taking the class. I have heard of many schools like PositiveThinking's though where if you were on a varsity team, you also had to have it during a designated class period, a lot of times in lieu of PE. Navy may these as EC's, but in order to get them you HAVE to give up a class period.

I also agree with the point of leadership in a band, and know from what I've heard from many others, AF at least considers Drum Major to be at or above the level of a team captain. You'd certainly have to have other athletics, but it would show a high level of leadership.

My oldest son was 100 percent sure he's wanted an academy since he was young, and when it came time to make a decision junior year, he opted to give up band (despite loving it) to be able to take Calc 2 & 3, and Organic Chem 1 & 2 at a local college. Just no way to juggle the schedules junior or senior year.

On the flip side, my next son is a junior now and a bit unsure what he wants to do with his life. He is determined to stick with band next year, and will (most likely) be drum major. As a result, he may not get to take those college classes. We'll hope the schedules are compatible. On the plus side, he's at least had AP Calc and AP Chemistry this year so would at least have the minimum of what the academies are looking for. We also have an 8 period day, which helps in scheduling.

But as you said, neither of them are wrong in their decision. Younger son would like to stay in band and would probably do D&B at an academy or marching band at a civilian school. Even my oldest is determined he wants to do D&B next year at AF. Older son placed more emphasis on getting into an academy, younger son is more determined to stick with his interests and let the chips fall where they may.
 
MomoftheMagik, the kids at our school who are on JV or Varsity teams are required to take Athletics as a class period. Everyone else takes P.E. as a class period. Interestingly, the students in marching band can count that as their required P.E. credit! Athletes (and marching band, too, for that matter) are also required to attend before and/or after school practices in addition to their class period. Athletics and band are both big "time hogs", but well worth it! :thumb:
 
This is all very interesting to me because Suzie could be describing my son.

My son practically grew up in Annapolis. Although we live up the coast a bit, our boat was kept in Annapolis and from the time my son could walk on his own, he wanted to attend the Naval Academy.

He got older, learned to play an instrument, entered high school and joined an extremely competetive and successful marching band. His high school is one of those where if you are involved in music, you go from marching season to wind ensemble season, to jazz season to Spring musical season to ..... well, you get the idea. There is, literally, no athletic team on which you can play without conflicting your music schedule. And the music schedule is unbelievably demanding. Although our high school graduated more members of the current Navy varsity baseball team than any other high school, there isn't much call for national champion marching band members at the Naval Academy. Although my son sails, so do an awful lot of other USNA applicants.

All things being more or less equal (grades, SAT scores, class rank, etc.) the deciding nod for acceptance at USNA is probably going to the star athlete - not the star musician. In my son's case, he wisely decided to broaden his search and found another path. He knew he wanted to attend a service academy and commission into the Navy. He has just accepted an appointment to the Merchant Marine Academy. After visiting overnight, he discovered that it really felt more "right" for him than the Naval Academy.

It's a different path that will lead my son to the same eventual goal. He was absolutely fixated on the Naval Academy and we made him visit every service academy before he was allowed to apply to any. Although I truly love the Naval Academy - it's not the only choice and if it doesn't work out, there are many many other options. I think it is important that students understand that the college part is just a piece of the bigger picture. It's not like those students are graduating after four years and returning to their home towns and families. If a Navy career is the goal - it's worth investigating the alternate routes, as well. The state maritime colleges are some of the best kept secrets around.

But again - every applicant is different. Only the Naval Academy knows what they want and no one on this forum can speak for them. Every student who feels they belong at the Naval Academy should absolutely apply and do their very best to show the school why they should be there. To paraphrase something my grandmother used to say - "if you never ask, the answer is always no". You will never know if they want you, if you don't ask.
 
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that your son does have a chance to attend USNA. My son is a plebe at USNA, in the drum and bugle corps, protestant choir, and particpates in many musical productions at the Academy. The fact that your son was the drum major is very positive. You listed "Church" in his list of accomplishments. If he is more than an attender, he should note his level of service.

I would suggest that your son kick it into high gear, and retake the ACT. His score isn't dismal, by any means, but he could likely improve with some study. My son took the ACT 5 times. He's not the best standardized test taker. His weak spot was English, and he raised his score several points. Service academies take the highest score for each section. Otherwise, his academic record looks good.

May I suggest that he also start spinning the ROTC plates, as part of his plan B or C. The Service Academies can be very competitive to gain admission, depending on your locale. However, it is apparent that he has a great deal of ambition and follow through. Go for it! The prize is definitely worth the grueling admissions process.

Best blessings,

Deb
 
A note to you band members.........a great score on the CFA will show the SA's that you are physically fit, despite lack of a traditional sport. Leadership must be demonstrated somehow though.
 
Jenny, I totally agree with you re: CFA. My lad had limited high school sports involvement, but maxed out in many areas of the CFA. He was actually surprised that Plebe summer wasn't more difficult. Probably due to the preparation done before arrival.
 
jennyp said:
A note to you band members.........a great score on the CFA will show the SA's that you are physically fit, despite lack of a traditional sport. Leadership must be demonstrated somehow though.
Click to expand...

For anyone who is not active in sports during h.s. years, the CFA takes on added importance -- this is what USNA says, not what I say. Thus, band or not, if you don't do sports, you better have better than average CFA scores across the board or there will be concerns re your physical fitness.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top