Honor Code--Cheating on Test
- Thread starter Liberty
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We are not in good times for a plebe (or any class) to decide to get caught cheating on a test. If one can't handle it...someone will show you the gate.
It's situationally dependent. The offending Mid should expect to be brought before an Honor Board. The outcome of the board could be Honor Remediation or worse, but there's no hard and fast rule. However, a plebe is typically given more leeway than an upperclassman.
As a "graduate" of the Honor Remediation system, I would strongly recommend that the Mid take advantage of the program and learn as much as he/she can from it.
Bottom line: An Honor offense is not the end of the road. A lot depends on the situation, and the current leadership structure, but unless things have significantly changed since I graduated, I would expect the Mid to be given every chance to redeem themselves. I certainly was.
I hope this helps!
I have seen them go both ways (at USNA). Best advice, learn not to cheat. Eventually it catches up to you (maybe years). The longer you go the more it hurts (kicked-out, rank, pay, slammer)
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But it should be. If there are people who need to be cut, cut the ones who can't grasp the basic, even fundamental, concept of honor.
But... maybe that's different at the Naval Academy.
I'll allow that people make mistakes, and I'll even say there are a number of conduct offenses which arise from stupidity.
But as far as honor violations are concerned, I have no respect for them, i didn't as a cadet, and I don't now. Maybe that's harsh to some. There are far too many good cadets and midshipmen to be weighed down by the actions of a few bad ones.
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The people that need to be cut at times do get cut at the 1st offense.
But yeah, you're right, those that can't cut should get thrown out. Reason why so many 4.0 wonder mama boys and girls don't make the cut for an appointment. The board looks at everything.
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People learn how to cheat "better" but the action itself shows a deeper lacking.
My opinion, his "lumps" should be disenrollment. For many, that's what happens (and should happen).
That said, some here have said that USNA is a little looser than other academies. I don't know if that's true because I didn't go there.
My opinion, his "lumps" should be disenrollment. For many, that's what happens (and should happen).
That said, some here have said that USNA is a little looser than other academies. I don't know if that's true because I didn't go there.
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These aren't kids, independent of when Obama thinks they should come off of their parent's insurance. They're adults.
Their opportunity for a better life can come when they're civilians.
There are very few people that would think to reference the ethics of elected officials as the measuring stick for honor. I certainly wouldn't start now.
AbigailPR2017
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Honor Concept
First I'd like to point out that rather than an honor code, USNA has an honor concept. The way my B&G officer put it to me was that USNA expects you to follow the honor concept, but if you catch another Mid violating it, you do not have to report it. I think that's why some people think that USNA is more lenient than others.
Secondly I'd like to say that if you're asking what the punishment is for breaking an honor code, maybe you should reconsider the Academy. You will be training to live a life of honor and service, so if you can't be honorable from the start, maybe USNA isn't for you.
First I'd like to point out that rather than an honor code, USNA has an honor concept. The way my B&G officer put it to me was that USNA expects you to follow the honor concept, but if you catch another Mid violating it, you do not have to report it. I think that's why some people think that USNA is more lenient than others.
Secondly I'd like to say that if you're asking what the punishment is for breaking an honor code, maybe you should reconsider the Academy. You will be training to live a life of honor and service, so if you can't be honorable from the start, maybe USNA isn't for you.
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I guess I'm "old school" but I have ZERO tolerance for someone that has agreed to uphold a certain "honor position" and then choosed willfully to violate that.
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
I have NO problem dismissing a cadet/midshipman for their FIRST honor code violation...why should they get a "second chance?" They knew the code, knew the standard that not were not only expected but required, and they STILL chose to violate it.
Toss them out...
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
I have NO problem dismissing a cadet/midshipman for their FIRST honor code violation...why should they get a "second chance?" They knew the code, knew the standard that not were not only expected but required, and they STILL chose to violate it.
Toss them out...
Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
burnerafter16
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Got wind of an Honor hit due to a copied homework where it wasn't cited. Apparently, the board would have been lenient if cadet admitted guilt on his own much, much earlier. Cadet was found guilty by the Honor board and was recommended for dismissal. Process took over six months and the cadet was levied restrictions on weekends and had to write a log. Even to the point of requesting fresh letters of recomendation from those that gave him the original to vouch for his character. Just before spring break learned that the superintendent did not agree with the board and basically granted the cadet a second chance. Not the best way to spend the first year in any SA.
I cannot believe we are even having this discussion. Not sure of why the question was asked, but substitute any other offense for this. "What would happen to a Mid who got caught [stealing], [vandalizing], [making a false official statement], [assaulting], . . . ?"
For the military to remain an honorary profession which overall is held in high esteem, one must conduct him/herself honorably. I know officers who were in the class in which many of their classmates engaged in widespread cheating on an exam. Even though they did not cheat, their class has been the subject of remarks for the last 20 years.
For the military to remain an honorary profession which overall is held in high esteem, one must conduct him/herself honorably. I know officers who were in the class in which many of their classmates engaged in widespread cheating on an exam. Even though they did not cheat, their class has been the subject of remarks for the last 20 years.
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And to be clear, I don't see an Honor Concept as any less motivating than an Honor Code. In fact, I agree more with the concept than the code. Because I hear someone murdered someone else, doesn't mean I'm also a murderer. What we forget to mention with the Honor Concept (which is what the CGA has too) is if you witness someone commit an honor offense, while you are not also guilty of an honor offense for not reporting, you are guilty of a Class I Conduct Offense (which is pretty nasty).
What I can't figure out in the OP's first post... is this someone who already committed an offense and was caught or was this someone who either wasn't caught or is only considering cheating at this point?
What I can't figure out in the OP's first post... is this someone who already committed an offense and was caught or was this someone who either wasn't caught or is only considering cheating at this point?
the honor system (lying,cheating,stealing) at USNA is independent of the conduct system, which encompasses everything else. Just because it's an honor "concept" doesn't mean you don't have to report an offense, though. You can still get into big trouble for failing to act.
I know of a plebe who was caught cheating on a test last semester. He went through the process and was "remediated" , only to cheat again on a final exam. He was disenrolled after that.
So, from what I've seen, it's typically two strikes and you're out.
I know of a plebe who was caught cheating on a test last semester. He went through the process and was "remediated" , only to cheat again on a final exam. He was disenrolled after that.
So, from what I've seen, it's typically two strikes and you're out.
From talking to those who went to USAFA and USMA, they also have had honor remediation programs. (And not everyone thought that was a good idea.) Has the Coast Guard Academy stuck with the more traditional "if you're found guilty of an honor offense you're gone" approach, LITS, or is this more your general view that honor remediation programs aren't warranted?
On the original question -- over the past few years at USNA, if the offender was a plebe, was honest in "owning" the mistake and was contrite, there would be a good chance of honor remediation. In the current climate (not as much pressure to graduate big classes), I don't know if that will still hold. But the advice -- try own the mistake, don't make excuses, walk a straight line going forward -- still holds.
On the original question -- over the past few years at USNA, if the offender was a plebe, was honest in "owning" the mistake and was contrite, there would be a good chance of honor remediation. In the current climate (not as much pressure to graduate big classes), I don't know if that will still hold. But the advice -- try own the mistake, don't make excuses, walk a straight line going forward -- still holds.
usna1985
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It's my understanding that the "big 3" SAs all have honor remediation programs. Some (grads, current mids, profs, etc.) think they are a good thing; others do not. I think most people are ok with them IF they are offered/administered "fairly."
As with Admissions, "fairness" is a difficult concept to implement. However, most of us would say that remediation should not only or primarily be offered to members of certain "groups," such as big-sport athletes, minorities, women, etc. There was a major investigation at USNA a few years ago around this very subject and thus I would think USNA is particularly sensitive to how and when it is an option.
The reason for honor remediation BTW is that some mids don't come from an environment where honor was emphasized and it may be difficult to make the "switch" overnight no matter how many lectures one gets. Thus, as stated above, remediation is more likely to be offered to an 4/C or 3/C, in situations where the mid admitted guilt, where there may have been some extenuating circumstances, etc.
As also noted above, the Supe must approve the decision and, in today's environment, the mid is probably less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.
As with Admissions, "fairness" is a difficult concept to implement. However, most of us would say that remediation should not only or primarily be offered to members of certain "groups," such as big-sport athletes, minorities, women, etc. There was a major investigation at USNA a few years ago around this very subject and thus I would think USNA is particularly sensitive to how and when it is an option.
The reason for honor remediation BTW is that some mids don't come from an environment where honor was emphasized and it may be difficult to make the "switch" overnight no matter how many lectures one gets. Thus, as stated above, remediation is more likely to be offered to an 4/C or 3/C, in situations where the mid admitted guilt, where there may have been some extenuating circumstances, etc.
As also noted above, the Supe must approve the decision and, in today's environment, the mid is probably less likely to get the benefit of the doubt.