I-Day is Approaching Fast

[USNA69]

So everyone is clear, I agree with looking at Reef Points before attending USNA.

no one else will know unless you inform them.

'No one else will know'. Hardly the caveat necessary when giving upstanding forthright proper advice.
Additionally, this has got to be one of the scariest bits of advice I have ever encountered on this forum. It is okay to do anything so long as ‘no one else will know? Look at your roommates take home test when he is at dinner? No one will know. Take short cuts on the ship’s preventive maintenance system because ‘no one else will know’? Maybe you, LineInTheSand should take a good long hard look in the mirror before you face your OS’s at your next quarters. With this mindset, you certainly have no business advisng future Naval Academy midshipmen.

Perhaps you are unaware that there is an entire other world out there, larger than your 10 knot USS Constitution mindset, where your greatest challenge apparently is getting underway from a stationary pier, spending a few days independent steaming, and then returning to that self same pier. Tactical Action Officers are intimately familiar with the capabilities of all the assets of not only all friendly forces but all enemy ones as well. They then fight the battle group in a very pressure cooker atmosphere. Or the ordnance drop late at night to protect fellow Marines pinned down by superior forces, weather causing a very low level pull out, FODing an engine, returning to the boat, a boat below weather minimums, single engine, adrenaline aflow, attempting to pour through multiple checklists to affect the necessary electrical and hydraulic crossovers, attempting to refuel in a lightening storm with faulty refueling platform, fuel low lights continually aglow. Perhaps, LITS, you are out of your element here attempting to give advice to USNA candidates. Stick with the Coast Guard. It is more your speed. Everything done at USNA is done for a reason. Memorizing Reef Points in advance is not one of those reasons.

Are you speaking officially as a USNA representative, stating USNA official policy?

Perhaps you should label your posts as "your opinion" since they carry no official weight from the USNA?

As a BGO, I must be continually aware that I am always a USNA representative and that everything I state has to be factual as in the case here where I am expressing the policy of the Academy.

As LITS has done in this very thread, expressing his ill-found opinions, he uses ‘maybe’ and ‘perhaps’. This has also been my policy in the past when I have been expressing my own personal opinions.

There is a very long thread at CC if you wish to review it....................... There are many others than have added opinions contrary to yours and they are just as relevant.

Please do read it. With the exception of one or two who were trying to rationalize their own improper actions, all the remainder in the know worthy of an opinion, agreed that it should not be done.

 

[Luigi59]

As a BGO, I must be continually aware that I am always a USNA representative and that everything I state has to be factual as in the case here where I am expressing the policy of the Academy.

Then scan and attach the piece of literature that states it or point to a link that states it or provide the name of an official spokesman at the academy who will verify that incoming plebes are not to obtain and read copies of Reef Points.

As a USNA representative, that should be easy to do if such an official policy exists.

You would have avoided 20 pages of opinion, conjecture, speculation and argument if you could have provided it 3 months ago, but since you didn't, most are lead to believe that such an official written policy does not exist.

Prove everyone wrong.

 

[Luigi59]

As LITS has done in this very thread, expressing his ill-found opinions...

"Ill-found?"

I think many people here find the posts of LITS to be well thought, valid, and current.

What makes your opinions any less "ill-found?"

Some here may think that the opinion of someone who entered the USNA over FOUR DECADES ago to be "ill-found" as well.

Perhaps you are unaware that there is an entire other world out there, larger than your 10 knot USS Constitution mindset...

Perhaps you are aware that over the last FOUR DECADES the information age has changed much of what was once valid in 1966, and made it inconsequential or invalid in 2008. Technology has changed the daily lives of every single one of those incoming plebes, perhaps the advances has enabled the incoming plebe to be able to process all of the necessary information AND pre-acquire and learn Reef Points without ANY fall-off in performance, as may have been the case FOUR DECADES ago.

Perhaps, LITS, you are out of your element here attempting to give advice to USNA candidates. Stick with the Coast Guard. It is more your speed.

Unbelievable. You regularly post your ill-found advise in USAFA, USMMA, USCGA, and USMA threads, yet want to insult someone else for giving their current opinions?

 

[Zaphod]

TAG.

 

[USNA2011Dad]

Thank you Zaphod.

 

[Zaphod]

Let's be PERFECTLY clear, shall we?

First, there is NO official guidance that I am aware of that prohibits prospective Midshipmen from reading Reef Points prior to I-Day. They sell the damned book in the gift store, for crying out loud!

Is there a benefit to reading ahead? Of course, but there is also RISK. While you may in fact make your life easier by getting ahead of the pack, being ahead of the pack isn't always viewed as a good thing during Plebe Summer when TEAMWORK is the key point.

So, as with so many things in life, there are benefits and drawbacks. Measure them and choose accordingly.

Two USNA Alumni and one current Mid have recommended that you, at most, glance at Reef Points to have some idea of what's coming, but that memorizing ahead of time will run the risk of negating the very valuable lesson you are SUPPOSED to be learning. The information in Reef Points isn't what's important, it's the PROCESS OF LEARNING IT that's important. As such, the advice NOT to read ahead is perfectly valid, as are the reasons for which it's given.

I should also point out that just because a BGO or an Alumni gives their ADVICE and OPINION, it doesn't mean it's official USN/USNA policy. But then again, studying hard isn't USNA policy either, just their grade standards are. Many ways to reach to standard, each with their own benefits and drawbacks. Again, choose with care.

No more personal attacks. We're not in the mood.

 

[VMINROTChopeful]

...no one else will know unless you inform them.

"Midshipmen are persons of integrity, they stand for that which is right." - USNA honor concept

 

[LineInTheSand]

For all prospective midshipmen, I will be PERFECTLY clear, I am not suggesting you lie, I am not suggesting to attempt to deceive. That comment, which of course USNA69 took out of context was in reference to the "buzzing your hair" comment. It is meant to tell you that while buzzing your hair (also in no way an honor code violation) is "in your face" while understanding Reef Points is internalized. Yes, it's teamwork, and glancing and even memorizing various parts DOES NOT mean you must answer every question and make your classmates look bad, in fact in those few times you have some "quiet" time, or are in need of a leader, you can step up and help. I had classmates who did it, and the platoon was greatful, they did it the right way.

Are we suggesting that because NAPSTERS already know much of this that they have some how been cheated out of the future "fun"?

I've been a Swab, I've been a cadre, and I've completed my four years at an academy, and I can tell you that we have had great swabs who obviously went ahead and reviewed the Running Light before they reported. Did the cadre give up and say "lost cause"? Hell no, they found other ways to pressure, overload and test the Swab. MANY TIMES! Indoc isn't the challenge of the summer...and I would not hesistate to say that the summer is MORE valuable for the 2/c than it could ever be for the Swabs (plebes). As a 2/c they will have the pressure of the added responsibility of the two stripes. The gravity of the decisions of your 2/c summer training period far outweigh those made your plebe summer... Hopefully Kamikazi can attest to that.

So before I have a prospective cadet/midshipman, WMIROTChopeful, lecture me on the ins and outs of the Code of Conduct (and it is a CODE not a Concept at USNA), please read the entire post instead of those selected by USNA69.

"Of course the cadre wouldn't be happy if you shaved your head before you show up, but they'll also love your hippie long hair too, if you don't get a conservative cut the week before you report. I remember some of those people...and other cadre remembered too.
There is no harm in learning some of it, and unlike shaving your head, no one else will know unless you inform them."


I would also caution USNA69 (as has been done too many times already) on the 10 knot mindset, first because USS Consitution is a NAVY vessel, and because while 10 knots is slow, it's far faster than the pace of a bingo game, or bocci ball game retired members go at. This entirely new world doesn't include you, any further than you are an extension of your currently serving family member. You're selective "copy and paste" doesn't change that.



If memorizing is the cornerstone of pressure at USNA, the Navy has truely lost its course. I'm just hoping USNA69

 

[VMINROTChopeful]

and it is a CODE not a Concept at USNA

hmmm. everything i've read says it is a concept at USNA and not a code. it is a code at USAFA, USMA and other military colleges (VMI, Citadel, etc).

http://www.cs.usna.edu/academics/COMDTMIDNINST 1610.3F.PDF

 

[Luigi59]

Let's be PERFECTLY clear, shall we?

First, there is NO official guidance that I am aware of that prohibits prospective Midshipmen from reading Reef Points prior to I-Day. They sell the damned book in the gift store, for crying out loud!

Well that doesn't clear anything up, as your statement above contradicts this post from USNA69:

As a BGO, I must be continually aware that I am always a USNA representative and that everything I state has to be factual as in the case here where I am expressing the policy of the Academy.

Hence the confusion. He is stating that it is official USNA policy not to read Reef Points before I-day.

I should also point out that just because a BGO or an Alumni gives their ADVICE and OPINION, it doesn't mean it's official USN/USNA policy.

Understood, but when a BGO or Alumni says "I am expressing the policy of the Academy", no rational person could conclude anything but that he is speaking officially for the USNA.

No one would even question it if that could be proved. But in absence of that, there are competing opinions that advise different paths, both of which seem to have merit, neither can be said to be right or wrong for each candidate.

 

[KaMiKaZi]

VMINROTChopeful is correct. We do not have a "Honor Code," only the Honor Concept.

The difference is best summarized from this paper written by midshipmen:

"Take for example current honor codes where the witness must report an offense under penalty of committing one himself. This may be successful while students are under the honor code, however upon graduation they are no longer responsible to the code and therefore must make decisions on their own. To its credit, the indoctrination does serve as a guiding force in how many live their lives. However, it is expected that many, free from the honor code, mark their graduation with a sigh of relief and conduct their lives as they had before entering the academy.

The creators of the Honor Concept sought to avoid this by creating a system free of loophole plagued rules and to instead form a concept which was based on a midshipman’s conscience and desire to do the right thing. Over the years as offenders and their lawyers have challenged their separations it has become necessary to codify the Honor Concept into a written text which is similar to an honor code in its established rules and procedures. As unfortunate as this evolution is, the difference behind the Honor Concept and an honor code has remained the same. To this day at the U.S. Naval Academy, it is not an honor offense to not report another’s offense."

http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE99/Navy99.html

 

[Soylent]

Well seeing how this thread is going nowhere fast on the whole Reef Points strategy, I'd like to continue on the whole "taking it easy" idea. I just severely reduced my hours at the restaurant where I've worked for 2.5 years. Although I love the place, it feels great to stop working. My boss is great and wrote an amazing recommendation letter for my nominations, and it's definitely bittter sweet to be leaving. The restaurant industry is a stepping stone for many people, and I'm glad that I'm stepping off after seeing so many people just get caught up in it.

 

[zachogden]

Stick with the Coast Guard. It is more your speed.

Could you expand on this? PM is fine too if you are so inclined.



Take it to PM if you must. We're not going to put up with more useless bickering here. - Zaphod

 

[Zaphod]

I'd like to continue on the whole "taking it easy" idea. I just severely reduced my hours at the restaurant where I've worked for 2.5 years. Although I love the place, it feels great to stop working.

There's nothing wrong with that (assuming you don't need the money). The "taking it easy" idea really only applies to academics. If you suddenly decide to skate and end up blowing your last semester grades, there is a very real chance that your appointment can be revoked.

It has happened in the past. Don't let it.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Could you expand on this? PM is fine too if you are so inclined.



Take it to PM if you must. We're not going to put up with more useless bickering here. - Zaphod

Actually Zaphod, I'd like him to keep it here. I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps USNA69 can enlighten all of the posters. Let's keep it on the board and away from PMs at this point, if he wants to make that statement, he can of course back it up.

 

[LineInTheSand]

VMINROTChopeful is correct. We do not have a "Honor Code," only the Honor Concept.

The difference is best summarized from this paper written by midshipmen:

"Take for example current honor codes where the witness must report an offense under penalty of committing one himself. This may be successful while students are under the honor code, however upon graduation they are no longer responsible to the code and therefore must make decisions on their own. To its credit, the indoctrination does serve as a guiding force in how many live their lives. However, it is expected that many, free from the honor code, mark their graduation with a sigh of relief and conduct their lives as they had before entering the academy.

The creators of the Honor Concept sought to avoid this by creating a system free of loophole plagued rules and to instead form a concept which was based on a midshipman’s conscience and desire to do the right thing. Over the years as offenders and their lawyers have challenged their separations it has become necessary to codify the Honor Concept into a written text which is similar to an honor code in its established rules and procedures. As unfortunate as this evolution is, the difference behind the Honor Concept and an honor code has remained the same. To this day at the U.S. Naval Academy, it is not an honor offense to not report another’s offense."

http://www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE99/Navy99.html

When did USNA change from a code to a concept?

 

[usna1985]

OK, folks. Enough is enough.

No more talk of whether one should or should not buy, read, memorize, or sleep with Reef Points prior to Plebe Summer. That topic has been more than beaten into the ground.

STOP the personal attacks. As alums, BGOs, parents, friends, etc. of USNA, we are not bringing respect to ourselves or USNA by engaging in baiting one another and then replying in kind with personal attacks. What some of you on this thread are doing is very annoying to others who simply want to get advice and engage in friendly discussion. They don't like what's going on and neither do I.

Remember . . . if you don't have anything nice to say, KEEP QUIET.

I really don't want to start warning, banning, etc. It feels like kindergarten. We are all mature adults; start acting like it. Or, unfortunately, further action will be required.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

RE: Honor code/concept. Kamakazi - I have heard other USNA alum explain the difference as you did. I am not sure when that paper was written but at USMA - they have an honor code. That does NOT mean that you go around tattling on your fellow cadets. In "not tolerating" you are to use your good judgment and most time bring it to the cadet first.
AT USMA (and I am probably sure at the other academies) the Honor Code/Concept is taught extensively during the first summer. You as a a new cadet or plebe are given thorough instruction in the meaning of and interpreting of the Honor Code/Concept.


For all you seniors out there - keep up with your studies. Don't take a dive on your AP tests or finals. All of you are excellent students, if you are close to graduating #1 or #2 in your class then go for it. If you are close to graduating with "honors" or what ever distinction your school has then continue.
Lastly - if you have never gotten a B in your life - realize that this will more than likely never happen again. Don't go off the deep end when you get your first grade below an A.

 

[Luigi59]

OK, folks. Enough is enough.

No more talk of whether one should or should not buy, read, memorize, or sleep with Reef Points prior to Plebe Summer. That topic has been more than beaten into the ground.

STOP the personal attacks. As alums, BGOs, parents, friends, etc. of USNA, we are not bringing respect to ourselves or USNA by engaging in baiting one another and then replying in kind with personal attacks. What some of you on this thread are doing is very annoying to others who simply want to get advice and engage in friendly discussion. They don't like what's going on and neither do I.

Remember . . . if you don't have anything nice to say, KEEP QUIET.

I really don't want to start warning, banning, etc. It feels like kindergarten. We are all mature adults; start acting like it. Or, unfortunately, further action will be required.

Where was the personal attack?

Other than a Navy BGO insulting another service (nothing new), I saw no personal attacks. I DID see however, a good discussion about the relative merits of pre-reading Reef Points, with valid reasons coming from both sides.

Where the discussion started to waver was when a BGO stated that he was speaking officially for the Academy in saying the candidates should not pre-acquire and read Reef Points.

Seems to me that if that 'advice" is official policy, then an official BGO should be able to back it up with some proof. If that's the official policy, then EVERYONE will know and the discussion should end.

Until then, it's only one opinion among many, with both sides giving valid reasons for and against learning it.

Fair is fair. Don't close down a thread because a few are challenging a poster to back up his statement.

 

[KaMiKaZi]

LITS, USNA has had the Honor Concept since the early 1950s when MIDN Ross Perot and MIDN William P. Lawrence both established it.

Just_A_Mom, referencing what you said, I had the priveledge of being one of the few detailers that taught the Plebes about Honor/Officer Development over the summer.