I Left AFROTC and they told me this...

bossman9696

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Joined
Mar 6, 2018
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So to make this as short as possible. I am (or was) a 4th-year non-scholarship cadet. After the first semester of my senior year, Fall 2017 (with 2 semesters left to graduate Fall 2018).
I decided that I no longer wanted to pursue a commission. Without getting too personal, over my time spent in college, I have grown a big social media following around my passion and I've built a multi 6 figure business around it. So basically, I left because after I graduate I want the freedom to pursue my dreams and do what I love. As I'm already successful at it.

I told my commander a few months ago and we did the disenrollment investigation. Today I just got word back from HQ that I am required to serve a 2-year active duty enlistment instead of paying back my stipend debts ($6k).

Not only was I shocked but a bit angry too as prior cadets who have left 1-2 years ago while being in POC where granted free will. Paying NOTHING back nor enlisting.

With that being said, I have one chance to appeal this decision. I read my disenrollment report and it didn't state any reason as to why I wanted to leave. Just that I wanted to leave.

If anybody has any advice or tips for writing my appeal please let me know..
 
Due to the very specific nature of your request (and the fact that money doesn't seem to be an issue) I would contact an attorney who specializes in ROTC disenrollment. Since you only have one opportunity to appeal this would be money well spent.
 
So to make this as short as possible. I am (or was) a 4th-year non-scholarship cadet. After the first semester of my senior year, Fall 2017 (with 2 semesters left to graduate Fall 2018).
I decided that I no longer wanted to pursue a commission. Without getting too personal, over my time spent in college, I have grown a big social media following around my passion and I've built a multi 6 figure business around it. So basically, I left because after I graduate I want the freedom to pursue my dreams and do what I love. As I'm already successful at it.

I told my commander a few months ago and we did the disenrollment investigation. Today I just got word back from HQ that I am required to serve a 2-year active duty enlistment instead of paying back my stipend debts ($6k).

Not only was I shocked but a bit angry too as prior cadets who have left 1-2 years ago while being in POC where granted free will. Paying NOTHING back nor enlisting.

With that being said, I have one chance to appeal this decision. I read my disenrollment report and it didn't state any reason as to why I wanted to leave. Just that I wanted to leave.

If anybody has any advice or tips for writing my appeal please let me know..

Google a search string such as “ROTC cadet disenrollment military lawyer.” Most of these are prior JAGs who deal with SA and ROTC voluntary and involuntary separations and disenrollments, and other military legal proceedings. They know the policies, have the contacts, know what’s negotiable, what past precedent is, what the current climate is. Some give a free consultation upfront. Sounds like you can pay a decent fee, so it might be worth it to you.

You hedged your bets, taking Uncle Sam’s money while building your business. You’ve been around long enough to know that “needs of the Air Force” trump all. One year they might want cash back, another year your labor and nothing in another year. They have their business (service provider, defense of the nation), and they invested in you and set out the terms in a contract. They have assessed their business needs in a utilitarian fashion, and decided your payback is a period of enlisted service, based on their current manpower needs. As a budding entrepreneur, you will want people to honor their contractual obligations with you; you too will make business decisions based on the needs of your business.

In the meantime, consider the “shadow of a leader” you are casting. Be impeccable. Set the scene for the best possible opinions of you. Your cadre leadership will surely, if not already, have offered their official assessment and recommendation. No doubt there have been informal personal conversations along the lines of “What’s the story with this guy/gal? Deserve a break?”
 
I would contact an attorney who specializes in ROTC disenrollment.

This is likely the best advice, especially seeing as how you can probably more than afford the lawyer. It also sounds like whoever wrote up your disenrollment report didn’t include your reasons, so make sure they are in your appeal. I understand your anger with being made to enlist, they’re essentially holding you hostage over the 6K. Sometimes they let people go completely scot-free, often times it’s with repayment of funds owed, and rarer it’s with enlistment. Seeing as how the money you owe is merely just stipends and not scholarship funds, I’m also surprised they’re forcing you to enlist. I knew a guy who also disenrolled about a year ago, was also non-scholarship, and he didn’t owe the AF anything. Honestly, sometimes I think it just depends on who is doing the paperwork at the other end. If they’re out to punish you for breaking the contract, they’ll do their best to see that it happens. It sounds like that may have happened in your case. Either that, or whoever conducted your disenrollment investigation did a poor job of summarizing the whole situation. Be sure in your appeal to be crystal clear that you are willing to pay the full amount of the stipends back.
 
I would contact an attorney who specializes in ROTC disenrollment.

This is likely the best advice, especially seeing as how you can probably more than afford the lawyer. It also sounds like whoever wrote up your disenrollment report didn’t include your reasons, so make sure they are in your appeal. I understand your anger with being made to enlist, they’re essentially holding you hostage over the 6K. Sometimes they let people go completely scot-free, often times it’s with repayment of funds owed, and rarer it’s with enlistment. Seeing as how the money you owe is merely just stipends and not scholarship funds, I’m also surprised they’re forcing you to enlist. I knew a guy who also disenrolled about a year ago, was also non-scholarship, and he didn’t owe the AF anything. Honestly, sometimes I think it just depends on who is doing the paperwork at the other end. If they’re out to punish you for breaking the contract, they’ll do their best to see that it happens. It sounds like that may have happened in your case. Either that, or whoever conducted your disenrollment investigation did a poor job of summarizing the whole situation. Be sure in your appeal to be crystal clear that you are willing to pay the full amount of the stipends back.
I got a better one. Guy either fails or quits UPT (cant remember), wants to be reassigned, but the board decides to boot him out Air Force. He later gets a bill for the Scholaships he received duirng Rotc. He initally pays them back some money but after some complaining, they decide to forgive it. Being that he didnt quit and that they threw him out, I never understood why he would be reponsible for either scholarships or AFA
 
Being that he didnt quit and that they threw him out, I never understood why he would be reponsible for either scholarships or AFA

The Army tends to simply reclass someone that does not make it through Flight School where with the AF, it sometimes results in being let go. That being said, it's not a guarantee with the Army either. They were pretty clear when both my sons went to Army Flight School, if you fail the course and have been given every opportunity to pass, there is a chance you could be discharged from the Army. If that happens and you have a scholarship or USMA obligation you could be required to make restitution. Both sons said they never saw anyone discharged while they were there but it sounds like a grey area that would need the attention of an attorney skilled in this type of situation.
 
Being that he didnt quit and that they threw him out, I never understood why he would be reponsible for either scholarships or AFA

The Army tends to simply reclass someone that does not make it through Flight School where with the AF, it sometimes results in being let go. That being said, it's not a guarantee with the Army either. They were pretty clear when both my sons went to Army Flight School, if you fail the course and have been given every opportunity to pass, there is a chance you could be discharged from the Army. If that happens and you have a scholarship or USMA obligation you could be required to make restitution. Both sons said they never saw anyone discharged while they were there but it sounds like a grey area that would need the attention of an attorney skilled in this type of situation.
To me the crazy part is that he fulfilled his obligation by being an officer in the AF. Not everyone is going to be sucessful in every job and if you fail, you should be moved to somewhere were you will suceed. If at some point they no longer want you, then that is on the AF and not the officer. I think the part that probably did him in was that I think he quit UPT. He realized that he didnt want to be a pilot and instead of wasting everyones time by taking up space and probably failing midway, he decided he was going to do everyone invovled a favor and quit early in the program. I think the AF doesnt appreciate that. If he had honestly failed, they probably would have been more forgiving.
 
I would contact an attorney who specializes in ROTC disenrollment.

This is likely the best advice, especially seeing as how you can probably more than afford the lawyer. It also sounds like whoever wrote up your disenrollment report didn’t include your reasons, so make sure they are in your appeal. I understand your anger with being made to enlist, they’re essentially holding you hostage over the 6K. Sometimes they let people go completely scot-free, often times it’s with repayment of funds owed, and rarer it’s with enlistment. Seeing as how the money you owe is merely just stipends and not scholarship funds, I’m also surprised they’re forcing you to enlist. I knew a guy who also disenrolled about a year ago, was also non-scholarship, and he didn’t owe the AF anything. Honestly, sometimes I think it just depends on who is doing the paperwork at the other end. If they’re out to punish you for breaking the contract, they’ll do their best to see that it happens. It sounds like that may have happened in your case. Either that, or whoever conducted your disenrollment investigation did a poor job of summarizing the whole situation. Be sure in your appeal to be crystal clear that you are willing to pay the full amount of the stipends back.
I got a better one. Guy either fails or quits UPT (cant remember), wants to be reassigned, but the board decides to boot him out Air Force. He later gets a bill for the Scholaships he received duirng Rotc. He initally pays them back some money but after some complaining, they decide to forgive it. Being that he didnt quit and that they threw him out, I never understood why he would be reponsible for either scholarships or AFA

On the other hand I’ve heard of people washing out of flight school and then getting reclassed into other rated positions, as unlikely as that sounds. Again, I think a lot of it goes back to who really handles the paperwork. If whoever’s handling it is a vindictive SOB, then the guy/gal will probably feel it on the way out.
 
[/QUOTE] Again, I think a lot of it goes back to who really handles the paperwork. If whoever’s handling it is a vindictive SOB, then the guy/gal will probably feel it on the way out.[/QUOTE]

That would be me. I'd be the vindictive guy. You know what you signed up for....though I'd definitely see that the guy/girl gets re-assigned rather than processed out. I have tremendous respect for those that serve but little for those that work/game the system.
 
They have their business (service provider, defense of the nation), and they invested in you and set out the terms in a contract.

I agree with your post on the whole but the only problem I have with this statement is that comparing the government to just another “business” is a little misleading, in my opinion. For example, during the drawdown in 2014, many contracted cadets in the ROTC program were let go through no fault of their own, even though they had already signed on the dotted line. Those “contracts” were effectively torn up and the cadets were asked to leave. I wouldn’t say that was fair to those kids, who had goals and plans that revolved around earning a commission. However, I also realize there can be extenuating circumstances. In that case it was the sudden need to reduce manpower. But again, that kind of thing works both ways.
 
Bossman- Did you leave on a good note from your unit? Did you do your best in ROTC up until the last day? Were you bragging to other cadets that you are going to be leaving because you are making a bunch of money? Before you put your resignation paperwork in, did you do your due diligence about what the Air Force might do? There is always a story behind the story and I'm guessing you might not have handled the situation well, left your commander with a bad taste and s/he might have asked for the stiffest penalty available to you. No need to answer the questions here. Uncle sam doesn't care about your "social media"; you are on the hook and they are going to get their due.
 
Bossman- Did you leave on a good note from your unit? Did you do your best in ROTC up until the last day? Were you bragging to other cadets that you are going to be leaving because you are making a bunch of money? Before you put your resignation paperwork in, did you do your due diligence about what the Air Force might do? There is always a story behind the story and I'm guessing you might not have handled the situation well, left your commander with a bad taste and s/he might have asked for the stiffest penalty available to you. No need to answer the questions here, but uncle sam doesn't care about your "social media." You are on the hook and they are going to get their due.

You just jumped to huge conclusions, and all of them are wrong.
 
So to make this as short as possible. I am (or was) a 4th-year non-scholarship cadet. After the first semester of my senior year, Fall 2017 (with 2 semesters left to graduate Fall 2018).
I decided that I no longer wanted to pursue a commission. Without getting too personal, over my time spent in college, I have grown a big social media following around my passion and I've built a multi 6 figure business around it. So basically, I left because after I graduate I want the freedom to pursue my dreams and do what I love. As I'm already successful at it.

I told my commander a few months ago and we did the disenrollment investigation. Today I just got word back from HQ that I am required to serve a 2-year active duty enlistment instead of paying back my stipend debts ($6k).

Not only was I shocked but a bit angry too as prior cadets who have left 1-2 years ago while being in POC where granted free will. Paying NOTHING back nor enlisting.

With that being said, I have one chance to appeal this decision. I read my disenrollment report and it didn't state any reason as to why I wanted to leave. Just that I wanted to leave.

If anybody has any advice or tips for writing my appeal please let me know..

Google a search string such as “ROTC cadet disenrollment military lawyer.” Most of these are prior JAGs who deal with SA and ROTC voluntary and involuntary separations and disenrollments, and other military legal proceedings. They know the policies, have the contacts, know what’s negotiable, what past precedent is, what the current climate is. Some give a free consultation upfront. Sounds like you can pay a decent fee, so it might be worth it to you.

You hedged your bets, taking Uncle Sam’s money while building your business. You’ve been around long enough to know that “needs of the Air Force” trump all. One year they might want cash back, another year your labor and nothing in another year. They have their business (service provider, defense of the nation), and they invested in you and set out the terms in a contract. They have assessed their business needs in a utilitarian fashion, and decided your payback is a period of enlisted service, based on their current manpower needs. As a budding entrepreneur, you will want people to honor their contractual obligations with you; you too will make business decisions based on the needs of your business.

In the meantime, consider the “shadow of a leader” you are casting. Be impeccable. Set the scene for the best possible opinions of you. Your cadre leadership will surely, if not already, have offered their official assessment and recommendation. No doubt there have been informal personal conversations along the lines of “What’s the story with this guy/gal? Deserve a break?”

Best advice so far, thank you.
 
@bossman9696

You might have unwittingly invited some of this speculation. If you truly wanted to keep your post as short as possible, you might have said “I’m in my 4th year AFROTC, non-scholarship, due to graduate in Fall 2018. For personal reasons, I want to pursue a career outside the military. After initiating the disenrollment process, I have been told I have to serve a 2-year enlistment. I owe only $6k. What options do I have for appeal? Thank you for any advice.”

The mention of your big social media following and the multi six-figure business you have built around it is not germane to the issue, and in the flattened medium of an anonymous Internet forum, perhaps conveyed hubris you did not intend.
 
You need to hire an attorney.

I am not trying to be rude, but the fact is after 3+ yrs in AFROTC you should have known this saying....NEEDS OF THE AF. You signed on that dotted line after SFT aka LEAD. It is a legal contract. That contract somewhere in the fine print that they had the right to make you serve enlisted if you did not fulfill the requirements set forth in the contract.

Legally you were the one that broke the contract, and not the AF.

It use to be that they would hand you the bill and let you go on your way, but in the last yr I have seen on this site alone that they are requiring them to serve enlisted. ---Personally, I disagree with this idea because it creates poor morale from the get go, but I am not a General or an SES.

Humey regarding the guy that quit UPT and got handed a bill, it does not surprise me. The AF has done that for years, if not decades. I understand your pov, but the fact is they don't call fliers the million dollar guys/gals for no reason. The cost of a sim ride or a flight is not cheap. If he washed out they would have re-classified or separated him, but he asked to leave on his own after they spent money on him, because for whatever reason to him this was not the life he wanted, but to the AF it was the we own you and the NEEDS OF THE AF says pilot or nothing else.

boss I hope you find an attorney that can help you. I believe you will be able to, but expect that this can take months before it is settled. It will have to go all the way up the chain. Good luck
 
@bossman9696

You might have unwittingly invited some of this speculation. If you truly wanted to keep your post as short as possible, you might have said “I’m in my 4th year AFROTC, non-scholarship, due to graduate in Fall 2018. For personal reasons, I want to pursue a career outside the military. After initiating the disenrollment process, I have been told I have to serve a 2-year enlistment. I owe only $6k. What options do I have for appeal? Thank you for any advice.”

The mention of your big social media following and the multi six-figure business you have built around it is not germane to the issue, and in the flattened medium of an anonymous Internet forum, perhaps conveyed hubris you did not intend.
I disagree with your comment on how he should have stated his case. Sure if he was making a his case in a courtroom or in front of a board, I would agree keeping it short and direct would bet he best course. However, here on the forum, the more detail the better. Even if it makes him look him look bad. I can guarantee you, the next post after asking his original question would have been , what are the personal reasons. There is a difference between saying I have to stay home, support my sick mother as my father died and and their is no one else to take care of her and I figured out how to make tons of money on the internet. I have no idea if either story is good or bad in terms on how the AF would react, but if you are going to ask advice or better yet give advice, you may as know as much of the story as possible. I guess if the only advise is to get a lawyer, I guess we dont need any details.
 
@bossman9696

You might have unwittingly invited some of this speculation. If you truly wanted to keep your post as short as possible, you might have said “I’m in my 4th year AFROTC, non-scholarship, due to graduate in Fall 2018. For personal reasons, I want to pursue a career outside the military. After initiating the disenrollment process, I have been told I have to serve a 2-year enlistment. I owe only $6k. What options do I have for appeal? Thank you for any advice.”

The mention of your big social media following and the multi six-figure business you have built around it is not germane to the issue, and in the flattened medium of an anonymous Internet forum, perhaps conveyed hubris you did not intend.
How often do you get to use the word 'hubris' in a post? Well done. [emoji16]
 
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