IB Diploma Program: Good for academics or waste of time and money?

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Napk1ns

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So me being a sophomore, I have the opportunity to enroll in the International Baccalaureate Diploma Program (IBDP) at my high school next year and Senior year. Essentially, my schedule will be filled with majority IB classes, if not AP or an elective. Along with this I have to attend Theory of Knowledge in the evenings of fall and do quite a few major projects (Both academic and community service) in order to receive an IB diploma. I also have to take all the IB tests for the subjects I enrolled in. This is going to be quite expensive however, I am planning on working a job over summer to pay for this.

I actually planned on doing this program since 8th grade but now I am questioning it. The #2 ranked person in the class of 2020 is not enrolled in this program and I have a feeling if I take rigorous courses, such as this, it will drop my GPA, hence dropping my class ranking. Also, our counselors told us that UCs and CSUs (I live in Southern California) are very interested in candidates that have gone through this program. This is good news if I was primarily going for an ROTC scholarship (Which is my second option if the academies don't workout) but I am not sure if the Naval Academy or the Air force Academy care about this program. They stress a well rounded candidate, but if this interferes with my sports and extracurricular, I am afraid my GPA, athletic abilities, and participation in extracurricular will be hurt.

I know that was probably hard to understand but I am really interested in what you all think about this situation. Will I be wasting my time and money with the IBDP, or should I just enroll in other AP/IB classes and get the same education? I would really appreciate anyone's opinion.
 
I have no connection to any admissions staff, but if you search these very forums you will find most recommendations are to take the MOST RIGOROUS schedule you can, so that either a College or an Academy can see how you perform under the most strenuous academics offered at your school. IB/AP classes carry a heavier weighted GPA, and are looked at in terms of approximating Collegiate academics.
Not so important if attending a Service Academy, but if you go to an accredited University, those IB/AP courses and exams could very well allow you to enter post-secondary life with 40-60 college credits already under your belt. Almost like already having an AA/AS..:)
 
I will just give me experience speaking with a admissions officer 1-1 for over an hour. The SA ( in my case USMA) understand the level of work involved in IB courses and accounts for 60% of WCS. The officer advised that my DD focus on things that give the maximum value for your time and effort.

At the same time, they are looking at how the candidate handles multiple things and how well they do it.
 
I have had 3 sons go through the IB diploma program- DS three is at Navy as a Plebe. The IB diploma program is rigorous and likely heavily considered by admissions. The extended essay is unique. BUT (at least at USNA) it is pretty much useless for validating classes. Almost none of the core classes can be validated with IB tests, whereas most can be validated wit AP tests. Also, you won’t know about whether or not you earned the diploma until the middle of summer after your senior year. I think it is a rigorous program. My Plebe told his brother (rising high school sophomore) to get on the phone before his AC year started and said, “Don’t let Mom and Dad talk you into doing the IB - do AP instead. My two older sons (both who graduated from college as engineers) concur - IB was a waste of time. I am coming to that conclusion as well - if you have only IB, take as many IB classes as you can but if you have an AP option , go that route. The diploma itself is pretty much useless.
 
Here's a question I hear asked all the time:
"Is it better to take an AP class and get a B or a college prep class and get an A?"

The answer? "Take an AP class and get an A!"

In all seriousness, my mantra throughout high school has been to take the most challenging classes I could because if I didn't take a hard class now (when it's free), I'd be paying to take more and harder classes later (in college).
 
I agree with ders_dad. My DS (USMMA class of '13) was an IB diploma student. My DD (USMMA class of '21) took IB classes, but did not do the complete diploma program on the advice of her brother. In our opinion, it is not worth the extra time it takes to get the IB diploma. The IB Theory of Knowledge class is a waste of time, and the final IB tests are exorbitantly expensive with results unavailable until after classes at the academies have already started. If you have AP classes, I would take those. If only IB is available, I would take IB classes but forego the whole IB diploma program. Good luck.
 
Well, having 2 kids go through the IB program from 9th-12th grades, I have a different opinion than some of the others here who have taken IB classes. For my kids, it was WELL WORTH taking the IB classes. My son scored high enough to get the diploma, my daughter didn't. But both have very high GPA's when they finished high school and the IB program. My daughter had a 3.9gpa unweighted and my son a 4.0.

It is correct that you can't validate classes at the academies for having IB classes; but validating isn't really something to think about. Not unless you're trying to double major. You're going to be taking full course loads at the academy no matter what. Doesn't matter if you already have an associates or even a bachelor's degree already. You're still going to be taking approximately 140 credit hours.

So what DID the IB program do for my son? (He attended the air force academy).
1. The IB program is a PROGRAM. Not individual classes. Although, some people do just take IB classes. I don't recommend that. If you're thinking that, then just take AP classes. Because that's what AP is. Individual classes. The IB "Program" is basically a full time curriculum. You get to choose a couple of electives, but ALL other classes are chosen for you. Bad analogy; but sort of like comparing ROTC vs academy. or active duty to the guard. One is PART TIME military the other is FULL TIME military. AP and IB (Individual Classes) are advanced CLASSES. The IB Program is an Advanced PROGRAM. All of it.
2. BOTH of my kids learned so much more from the IB program. You're learning the exact same material and classes as another student in the IB program in New York, Kansas, Texas, London England, Tokyo Japan, etc... It gives you a different perspective on the "World".
3. It taught them a who different way of studying, managing time, (It's very time intensive), multi-tasking, etc. As such, both of my children had no problem at all managing time, classes, grades, etc. at the academy (For my son) and at the university (For my daughter)
4. The IB classes we much more advanced than normal high school classes. Even more than many entry college classes. As such, my son (At the academy) maintained a 4.0 gpa at the air force academy for his first 2 1/2 semesters. That was also WHILE PLAYING FOOTBALL at the air force academy. I attribute that directly to the IB program. Anyone will tell you how difficult it is to have a 4.0 gpa at the academy. He graduated the academy with a 3.96 gpa; got selected to attend Graduate School directly out of the academy. Got the covenant 3 year grad school to RAND where he received his Master's degree in just over a year, and FINISHED his PhD at 3 years. 25 years old with a Doctorate's, Master's, and Bachelor's. Not bad. Daughter finished at the university with a 3.85 and coasted through almost ALL of her GER classes because most were the same or easier than the IB classes.

Any classes or program you decide on, is the same as choosing a college, a major, a job, or anything else. You get out of it, what you put into it. If all you care about is your GPA, and the way so many schools now are NOT RANKING STUDENTS because they don't want to hurt any student's feelings; then just take the state minimum classes and get your 4.0gpa and be part of the other 50 students ALL RANKED #1 in their class.

Or, you take the most challenging classes/program you can at your school. You give it a 100%, NO EXCUSES, you also find a way to be involved in your community, clubs, sport teams, social life, leadership, etc. and you become a SUCCESSFUL high school graduate, READY for anything that comes after. Whether you get an appointment to the academy or not, doesn't matter. Getting an appointment is NOT, and SHOULD NOT, be your goal in life. Your goal should be much more complex and detailed than that. Attending the academy is simply a TOOL and a STEP to help you REACH your goals. It's part of the JOURNEY. It's not the actual GOAL.

So, if all you care about is filling in boxes and such to get into the academy, then choose accordingly. If you're trying to actually PREPARE yourself for your future, will goals in mind, then choose that way. FWIW: I've seen a LOT of 4.0 gpa applicants who didn't get an appointment to the academies. I've seen quite a few appointees with 3.9-4.0 gpa's who made it to the academy and either dropped out or failed out.

The IB PROGRAM is definitely well worth it. I think it's more difficult when you only do it for 2 years. Doing 4 years is MUCH BETTER. Some states, they even have the PRE program that starts in and before junior high. But if you're deciding on IB or not, DON'T take just IB classes. It's the IB program or NOTHING. If you're just wanting classes, take AP classes. And if you do decide on the IB program, don't do it because you think you're filling a square that looks good on a college application. That's the wrong answer. I give the same advice for the individual who wonders if they should join JrROTC, Civil Air Patrol, Scout, or a number of other activities. Do it because it offers you something that's going to make you a better person. A person you want to be. And give it 100%. If you're joining JrROTC or CAP because of your college application, you're wasting your time. You WON'T succeed in it as well as the person passionate about it; and college review boards, including the academies, can spot that a mile away.
 
Christcorp said:
Well, having 2 kids go through the IB program from 9th-12th grades, I have a different opinion than some of the others here who have taken IB classes. For my kids, it was WELL WORTH taking the IB classes. My son scored high enough to get the diploma, my daughter didn't. But both have very high GPA's when they finished high school and the IB program. My daughter had a 3.9gpa unweighted and my son a 4.0.

It is correct that you can't validate classes at the academies for having IB classes; but validating isn't really something to think about. Not unless you're trying to double major. You're going to be taking full course loads at the academy no matter what. Doesn't matter if you already have an associates or even a bachelor's degree already. You're still going to be taking approximately 140 credit hours.

So what DID the IB program do for my son? (He attended the air force academy).
1. The IB program is a PROGRAM. Not individual classes. Although, some people do just take IB classes. I don't recommend that. If you're thinking that, then just take AP classes. Because that's what AP is. Individual classes. The IB "Program" is basically a full time curriculum. You get to choose a couple of electives, but ALL other classes are chosen for you. Bad analogy; but sort of like comparing ROTC vs academy. or active duty to the guard. One is PART TIME military the other is FULL TIME military. AP and IB (Individual Classes) are advanced CLASSES. The IB Program is an Advanced PROGRAM. All of it.
2. BOTH of my kids learned so much more from the IB program. You're learning the exact same material and classes as another student in the IB program in New York, Kansas, Texas, London England, Tokyo Japan, etc... It gives you a different perspective on the "World".
3. It taught them a who different way of studying, managing time, (It's very time intensive), multi-tasking, etc. As such, both of my children had no problem at all managing time, classes, grades, etc. at the academy (For my son) and at the university (For my daughter)
4. The IB classes we much more advanced than normal high school classes. Even more than many entry college classes. As such, my son (At the academy) maintained a 4.0 gpa at the air force academy for his first 2 1/2 semesters. That was also WHILE PLAYING FOOTBALL at the air force academy. I attribute that directly to the IB program. Anyone will tell you how difficult it is to have a 4.0 gpa at the academy. He graduated the academy with a 3.96 gpa; got selected to attend Graduate School directly out of the academy. Got the covenant 3 year grad school to RAND where he received his Master's degree in just over a year, and FINISHED his PhD at 3 years. 25 years old with a Doctorate's, Master's, and Bachelor's. Not bad. Daughter finished at the university with a 3.85 and coasted through almost ALL of her GER classes because most were the same or easier than the IB classes.

Any classes or program you decide on, is the same as choosing a college, a major, a job, or anything else. You get out of it, what you put into it. If all you care about is your GPA, and the way so many schools now are NOT RANKING STUDENTS because they don't want to hurt any student's feelings; then just take the state minimum classes and get your 4.0gpa and be part of the other 50 students ALL RANKED #1 in their class.

Or, you take the most challenging classes/program you can at your school. You give it a 100%, NO EXCUSES, you also find a way to be involved in your community, clubs, sport teams, social life, leadership, etc. and you become a SUCCESSFUL high school graduate, READY for anything that comes after. Whether you get an appointment to the academy or not, doesn't matter. Getting an appointment is NOT, and SHOULD NOT, be your goal in life. Your goal should be much more complex and detailed than that. Attending the academy is simply a TOOL and a STEP to help you REACH your goals. It's part of the JOURNEY. It's not the actual GOAL.

So, if all you care about is filling in boxes and such to get into the academy, then choose accordingly. If you're trying to actually PREPARE yourself for your future, will goals in mind, then choose that way. FWIW: I've seen a LOT of 4.0 gpa applicants who didn't get an appointment to the academies. I've seen quite a few appointees with 3.9-4.0 gpa's who made it to the academy and either dropped out or failed out.

The IB PROGRAM is definitely well worth it. I think it's more difficult when you only do it for 2 years. Doing 4 years is MUCH BETTER. Some states, they even have the PRE program that starts in and before junior high. But if you're deciding on IB or not, DON'T take just IB classes. It's the IB program or NOTHING. If you're just wanting classes, take AP classes. And if you do decide on the IB program, don't do it because you think you're filling a square that looks good on a college application. That's the wrong answer. I give the same advice for the individual who wonders if they should join JrROTC, Civil Air Patrol, Scout, or a number of other activities. Do it because it offers you something that's going to make you a better person. A person you want to be. And give it 100%. If you're joining JrROTC or CAP because of your college application, you're wasting your time. You WON'T succeed in it as well as the person passionate about it; and college review boards, including the academies, can spot that a mile away.
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Thank you for your response, I really needed that and you actually changed my mind on me doing the IB diploma. I was making an excuse of it being too expensive and spending too much time, but after hearing about your children it actually motivated me to do more. As mentioned, I play two sports, involved in community service, and a part of JROTC and I just now realized I was using that as an excuse, backing out of the program. Once again, thank you for your response, and I will speak to the IB coordinator at my school tommorow and begin my planning because of this.
 
Let me add this (maybe I'm modifying my original response, maybe not). My DS (Plebe, USNA) did benefit GREATLY in terms of learning study habits and a more liberal education than he probably would have in just AP. In order to fit in TOK he was in class continuously his junior and senior year from 7:25 am until 3:00 pm (no lunch break) and then had to go straight to sports practice, followed by (sometimes) Scouts, his job, and piles of homework until 11:00 pm (plus getting up at 5:30 am to work out). The IB load forced that discipline. And let me tell you, it has really helped him so far at Navy - he KNOWS how to study and when to study. One other thing, he became "killer" at writing essays (besides the extended essay) through his IB classes. He tells me he is way far ahead of his classmates in his ability to quickly and efficiently write thoughtful essays. Also, four years of IB spanish gave him a certificate of fluency from the state and does allow him to validate the first two years of spanish at USNA (through testing).

He is somewhat bitter about not being able to validate more classes than his AP-taking peers. But he did validate classes through testing at USNA. Part of it is his roommate (AP school) validated 28 credits - that probably irks him.

The diploma, in the big scheme of things at USNA, is a nothing burger but it would have been a bigger deal if he went to many civilian schools.

My two older boys, who got engineering degrees at our state school, are still moderately angry because my wife and I made them do the full diploma in high school. But IMHO, they are much more well-rounded, better read, and more articulate than many of their peers. Was that IB? Maybe, but I can't prove it.
 
ders_dad said:
Let me add this (maybe I'm modifying my original response, maybe not). My DS (Plebe, USNA) did benefit GREATLY in terms of learning study habits and a more liberal education than he probably would have in just AP. In order to fit in TOK he was in class continuously his junior and senior year from 7:25 am until 3:00 pm (no lunch break) and then had to go straight to sports practice, followed by (sometimes) Scouts, his job, and piles of homework until 11:00 pm (plus getting up at 5:30 am to work out). The IB load forced that discipline. And let me tell you, it has really helped him so far at Navy - he KNOWS how to study and when to study. One other thing, he became "killer" at writing essays (besides the extended essay) through his IB classes. He tells me he is way far ahead of his classmates in his ability to quickly and efficiently write thoughtful essays. Also, four years of IB spanish gave him a certificate of fluency from the state and does allow him to validate the first two years of spanish at USNA (through testing).

He is somewhat bitter about not being able to validate more classes than his AP-taking peers. But he did validate classes through testing at USNA. Part of it is his roommate (AP school) validated 28 credits - that probably irks him.

The diploma, in the big scheme of things at USNA, is a nothing burger but it would have been a bigger deal if he went to many civilian schools.

My two older boys, who got engineering degrees at our state school, are still moderately angry because my wife and I made them do the full diploma in high school. But IMHO, they are much more well-rounded, better read, and more articulate than many of their peers. Was that IB? Maybe, but I can't prove it.
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I'm glad to hear about all your kids being very successful with their schooling. After reading it and hearing about your children, I'm glad to know it can help me as a person and benefits me more than just my education like most other courses. I most definitely will complete the IB diploma program (I also started planning my courses today [emoji2]) Thank you very much for your response
 
ders_dad; exactly my point. My son and daughter had the same type of scheduled days as your kids. 7:30 starting school, getting off at 3:30. They both had their extra curricular activities, football, through 10th grade my son also had band. Daughter had her choir and sports. Sports practice right after school. Get home about 6pm. Eat some dinner. Do some homework. Kids USUALLY got into bed around 10:30. Got up at 6:30 the next morning and started it all over again.

But both of them noticed, that because their study habits were far advanced of their non-IB peers/friends; and their ability to multi-task and manage their time, RARELY did either one of my kids have any homework on the weekends. So even though they busted their butt during the week, they had weekends off to spend with their friends or as a family we'd do stuff. I personally didn't allow my children to have a job during the school year. They "HAD A JOB". Get the best grades they could, and get accepted into EVERY college/university that they applied too. In the summers they did some work to make some extra money.

But in the end, it all worked out. Son graduated #1 in his high school class. Daughter in the top 10. They learned the value / reward of hard work. Of doing a job ONCE, doing it RIGHT, and not having to redo things. I'd say the most DIFFICULT part of the IB program, was for my son, and it was the "Social" part of it. There were about 40 kids in his grade in the IB Programs. Of that; 35 were girls and only 5 guys. That meant, most/all of his friends were in regular classes. NON of the other players on the football team or soccer team were in the IB program. So it made his social life a little challenging. But it all worked out. When my son was in 9th-10th grade, he was doing math and science classes equal to what the Seniors and Juniors were doing in regular classes. So during study hall, he would help some of the other football players with their homework. So he actually gain more respect and popularity among the OLDER students at the school. And for a high school kid, that is definitely a good thing. Reputation and such is very important to teenagers.

I will concede however, the IB program is not for everyone. Everyone learns at a different pace, different style, different method, etc. Some kids prefer to do AP and have some/half of their classes each semester be harder so they can balance their life. I've had kids who applied for the academy who HAD to work. Their income helped/was part of the "Family Income". They couldn't commit the amount of time the IB program requires. I had one applicant who literally took the "State Minimum Required" classes so he could basically maintain a high GPA with basically NO HOME WORK. That's because he lived on a Ranch, and his WORK on the ranch was necessary. The only "Quiet" time for him was usually in the summer. Animals and such can "Free Range" and don't need as much attention. He used the summer months to take college classes at the local community college. He actually finished high school with an Associates Degree from the local college.

So everyone is different. Each individual has to choose and decide for themselves.
 
Christcorp said:
ders_dad; exactly my point. My son and daughter had the same type of scheduled days as your kids. 7:30 starting school, getting off at 3:30. They both had their extra curricular activities, football, through 10th grade my son also had band. Daughter had her choir and sports. Sports practice right after school. Get home about 6pm. Eat some dinner. Do some homework. Kids USUALLY got into bed around 10:30. Got up at 6:30 the next morning and started it all over again.

But both of them noticed, that because their study habits were far advanced of their non-IB peers/friends; and their ability to multi-task and manage their time, RARELY did either one of my kids have any homework on the weekends. So even though they busted their butt during the week, they had weekends off to spend with their friends or as a family we'd do stuff. I personally didn't allow my children to have a job during the school year. They "HAD A JOB". Get the best grades they could, and get accepted into EVERY college/university that they applied too. In the summers they did some work to make some extra money.

But in the end, it all worked out. Son graduated #1 in his high school class. Daughter in the top 10. They learned the value / reward of hard work. Of doing a job ONCE, doing it RIGHT, and not having to redo things. I'd say the most DIFFICULT part of the IB program, was for my son, and it was the "Social" part of it. There were about 40 kids in his grade in the IB Programs. Of that; 35 were girls and only 5 guys. That meant, most/all of his friends were in regular classes. NON of the other players on the football team or soccer team were in the IB program. So it made his social life a little challenging. But it all worked out. When my son was in 9th-10th grade, he was doing math and science classes equal to what the Seniors and Juniors were doing in regular classes. So during study hall, he would help some of the other football players with their homework. So he actually gain more respect and popularity among the OLDER students at the school. And for a high school kid, that is definitely a good thing. Reputation and such is very important to teenagers.

I will concede however, the IB program is not for everyone. Everyone learns at a different pace, different style, different method, etc. Some kids prefer to do AP and have some/half of their classes each semester be harder so they can balance their life. I've had kids who applied for the academy who HAD to work. Their income helped/was part of the "Family Income". They couldn't commit the amount of time the IB program requires. I had one applicant who literally took the "State Minimum Required" classes so he could basically maintain a high GPA with basically NO HOME WORK. That's because he lived on a Ranch, and his WORK on the ranch was necessary. The only "Quiet" time for him was usually in the summer. Animals and such can "Free Range" and don't need as much attention. He used the summer months to take college classes at the local community college. He actually finished high school with an Associates Degree from the local college.

So everyone is different. Each individual has to choose and decide for themselves.
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That's quite impressive and a side of the IB diploma program I haven't heard. My friend in 11th grade who's taking it told me that it was really hard but he also tutors me in math class when the teacher is busy. All the people who have taken the IB diploma program like your son seem to be amazing people who will probably be the next Einstein so I will surely be excited to be a part of them
 
I go to the International School of Geneva where pretty much everyone does the IBDP/CP. I have not done it yet but from what I have seen: Yes, it is difficult as it is meant to be advanced and you need to be able to manage your time since there is never really enough time. It can also be beneficial outside of the academic due to the whole world aspect. I would stress the fact that time management is crazy important and not everyone can do it. However, if you have the ability to manage the IB on top of all of your extracurriculars etc. then I suppose it is up to you to decide. It's very doable, just not everybody can make it happen. That is just my point of view. Best of luck.
 
Napk1ns said:
That's quite impressive and a side of the IB diploma program I haven't heard. My friend in 11th grade who's taking it told me that it was really hard but he also tutors me in math class when the teacher is busy. All the people who have taken the IB diploma program like your son seem to be amazing people who will probably be the next Einstein so I will surely be excited to be a part of them
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As ders-Dad and I pointed out a couple of times, the main advantage of the IB program is "NON-Tangible". No, you're not going to be able to validate certain classes going into the academy or college. Then again, that isn't really important unless you plan on doing a double-major and can't fit in all the classes and want to be able to test out/validate some classes.

But the non-tangibles is very important. Study habits, discipline, multi-tasking, advanced classes, world perspective, and many more. In between my son's 2nd and 3rd year at the academy; during summer break; he volunteered with a group to go to Peru and help out at an orphanage. Not sure if he would have had that mind set without the perspective he gained in the IB program. His whole first year at the academy, he maintained a 4.0 gpa while also playing football for the academy. Not sure he could have pulled that off had his academics not be advanced in high school whereby 1st year at the academy was basically a review. Nor able to manage his time and studying between school and football.

And while he did decide to not stay with football at the academy after the first year, the study habits and such he brought with him from the IB program, assisted him in doing quite well at the academy. He didn't finish with a 4.0 gpa. But he did finish #7 academically. He got to go to graduate school full time after graduating from the academy. (100% free while still getting a full paycheck). In those 3 years, he was able to get a master's and PhD completed.

And he was able to do all this without having to be glued to his studies 24/7. He had a very good social life at the academy. His girlfriend from high school went to college in colorado springs, so he spent most weekends with her for 2 years. He also spent a lot of time snow boarding, skiing, hiking pike's peak, coming home to Wyoming on some long weekends, etc. This can all be attributed to, in part, to the IB Program.

But as has been said numerous times. It's not for everyone. And like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. You have to figure out your balance. There were plenty of kids in high school that did the IB program for a year and quit and went back to normal classes. They couldn't manage the time. And that's ok. That's why there's AP classes; Honor's classes; and other options for advanced classes. Simply imagine that a typical high school student is taking 5-7 classes a semester. ALL of them are AP classes. Then, add in "Mandatory" community service type programs and projects; throw in a mandatory report that takes more than a year to complete; and that all your classes "Except for maybe 1 or 2 electives" are all mandatory and chosen for you. All of that combined, would be the "IB Program".

I won't say either IB, or AP, or Honor's is better than the other. They are "DIFFERENT". IB is a standardized educational program world wide. The 16 year old in London or Paris or Tokyo in the IB program, is taking the exact same classes as the 16 year old in Denver, Miami, or Seattle is taking in the IB program. It was partially modeled after the DODDS (Department of Defense Dependent School) system. When military kids are stationed in Germany, England, Spain, Japan, etc. most of those kids couldn't go to school with civilian schools. Mainly because they didn't speak the language. DODDS schools have a standard school system for military kids all around the world. So they all learn the same and can transition back to public/private schools in the united states when they come back. The IB program in a world education program.
 
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