If you're looking at VTech and Norwich

Discussion in 'Publicly and Privately Funded Military Colleges' started by AlwaysAProudParent, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. AlwaysAProudParent

    AlwaysAProudParent Member

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    If your DS or DD is looking at these 2 SMC's I can give you my perspective as a parent and also what I am hearing from my son on VTech thus far . DS ROTC Scholarship - Picked Norwich then changed his mind for VTech.
     
  2. MichUSNA2021hopefulparent

    MichUSNA2021hopefulparent Member

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    Now that's a good choice!
     
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  3. theroyz71

    theroyz71 Member

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    My DS is a 3C NROTC MIDN at VT but I would be very interested in hearing your son's thoughts. My son loves it there. He is on the Growley Crew and just finished tapping O-Course. Still waiting to see if he made it.
     
  4. AlwaysAProudParent

    AlwaysAProudParent Member

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    He is doing very well. If you knew him this is what he was meant to do. He has seen a few drop out already. He thinks that they were just not prepared for the lack of sleep and still having to handle the class work. He is up at 4:30Am and to bed after Midnight . But that is what he did most of his years in HS because of his Crew and XC team training plus the schools workload in general. He said I think a bunch of this people had it easy in school and went to bed at 10PM and now are getting killed. He said the Cadre are great . A bit over the top at times but when them jam him for smiling they ( The female ones ) smile at him after he has to sound off to them and say you get to smile in May. He is a fitness / crossfit nut so the PT is a peace of cake. But was pissed he missed getting his Friday PT's off if he got a certain score on the AROTC PT Assessment. Missed it by a point. LOL . One thing he said is the Math Emporium for his math class is horrible. Not having a teacher puts them at such a disadvantage . All in all he said making the decision to go to VT ve Norwich is key. He likes the big campus excitement and feel. if you had the chance to see Norwich that is just not an option at all.
     
  5. SpchGrl

    SpchGrl Member

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    DS was just awarded a 3 yr ROTC scholarship to both places. We don't live in VA, so that's OOS tuition for us the first year. What Norwich offered in scholarships makes it seem significantly more affordable, although we don't know exactly what VA Tech will offer yet (and are presuming acceptance at to boot!). After scouring the boards to find what seems reasonable to hope for (Emerging Leader scholarship) we're still looking at a significant gap. We haven't visited Norwich, but I was impressed with the facilities (dorms, etc.) for cadets at VA Tech. Selfishly as a parent, VA Tech is located much closer to us so the possibility of seeing DS more often (whether we visit or he comes home) is a definite plus. We don't know anything about hazing at Norwich, but heard accounts from VA Tech that aren't comforting. Life in danger, probably not. So maybe it's not true hazing. As I understand, the worst of it has been directed at a student not deemed "worthy" to be there by upperclassmen. I know the official stance of every institution is "it doesn't happen here," but I don't believe that's true at all. I do believe in general, it happens much less frequently and when discovered, is punished more severely. I'm also inclined to believe it's less common at a SA than at a senior military college, thanks to increased scrutiny. Since the only folks who truly know are the ones who are there, it's impossible to factor hazing into a comparison. This is all just a parent's perspective: How much will it cost? Are the facilities well-maintained? How far way is it? How common is hazing? Naturally, DS is concerned with exactly zero of these things and views his choices much, much differently.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  6. Tenley71

    Tenley71 Member

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    We visited Norwich on an overnight in November and on the trip there, Norwich was in the top 3 for DD. After visiting the school and surrounding area, it dropped off her list completely. The cyber security program there is top notch but over all the school did not hit the marks it needed to for her. She has decided to pursue an ROTC program at a traditional college than go the route of Norwich. She was accepted and given a very generous scholarship but it was not enough to sway her to choose it.
     
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  7. SpchGrl

    SpchGrl Member

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    I hear ya. And it turns out their hazing tradition is long and documented. Horrifying what happened just a few months ago. Besides the actual abuse committed, I'm almost as appalled to hear a school administrator freely admit the perp is a "repeat offender." Helllooo? So why is he still there? I made my DS read the article and asked him what he would do in that situation, and he said "not go to Norwich."

    https://www.timesargus.com/news/loc...cle_e9d40d10-9de9-549d-b079-67edb2e4ef80.html
     
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  8. KuzNROTC

    KuzNROTC Member

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    I go to Norwich and can answer anyone's questions. All honesty no sugarcoating.
     
  9. Tenley71

    Tenley71 Member

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    IF I would have known about this incident happening only a week before our visit occurred there would have been no way in h@ll we would have done the overnight let alone looked at that school. I had heard rumors of this being an ongoing issue at this school but this “repeat offender” nonsense is just that... nonsense. Why is that cadet still there? Why was he allowed to be a repeat offender. Our visit to Norwich was severely lacking, was not well organized and to be honest I have never been happier when my DD said she was not at all interested in pursuing it any further.
     
  10. KuzNROTC

    KuzNROTC Member

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    I've read what was said about the "repeat offender."

    First off, the guy is not a repeat offender. The only reason why he is labeled that, is because the school official is getting word of mouth from a "recruit" (a freshmen), whom says that he has repeated an offense (whether that be the platoon or in general).

    Second off, I actually know this guy. We worked together on a committee. I won't advocate what he did was right. It was wrong.

    I will tell you that the recruit that told on him does not have a good reputation at this school (Yes word of mouth travels easily. There's 3000 students in the corps).

    What happened was a recruit was repeatedly asking to be tazed by his squad leader (the offender), until he finally gave in and jokingly tazed him. Was it wrong? Absolutely. It should have never happened as his cadre. He made a mistake, and he knows it, and he's paying for it.

    There's a culture, especially freshmen year, where what a lot of things cadre do is mistreatment. Some cases there are. Most cases aren't. Heck, I was there not too long ago as a recruit myself feeling as though I'm being "mistreated" and being "yelled at for no reason" and everything else negative you can think of. It is a culture shock, and the natural human reaction is that you've been done wrong.

    There's a week in "rookdom" where we meet with commandant staff, and it is an open environment where recruits can let out "feelings" as to what "we thought" was "unethical." What happens after this? Commandant locks down on things.

    This is good and bad. Good in that it does prevent "hazing" and mistreatment towards recruits. Bad in that, the "training" environment gets kind of lost.

    It is considered brave now to go out for a cadre position at SMCs, because of recruits being capable of ruining these juniors and seniors future careers.

    During my rookdom, there were cadre that lost ROTC contracts/scholarships, because a recruit told on them.

    Bottom line is that it is a strenuous environment for both recruits and cadre, and incidents occur.

    Heck, even if you go to a regular college there's still incidents (drugs, alcohol, excessive partying, "happy accidents," vandalism, riots, protests, hazing from frats/sororities/clubs/organizations/ROTC specialty units). If a regular college can still be granted the title as "safe" with their own incident issues, then why does Norwich have to be judged off of not just this incident, but other incidents in the past that pertains to only 1% of the population here?

    Sorry for the biased opinion. Again, take this from just my perspective as a student here.

    Also, if the chance of hazing is a risk of "safety" to one's DD or DS that a parent/legal guardian has zero chance of taking them there, a parent/legal guardian should think about the safety parameters of combat, war, and deployments that their future military officer are going to live in for the next 4+ years after college.


    After all that was said, I'm not here to recruit anyone to go to Norwich. Just explaining that you can't judge a campus by an article.

    If you have visited here and see it is not for your DD or DS, or if your DD or DS has decided its not for them, that's ok. I will not lie. This place or any SMC/SA isn't for everyone (not by a long shot). I don't even believe going to an SMC/SA will make you be a better officer. It is the student that decides what they can do to become a better officer.
     
  11. AJC

    AJC Member

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    This is a good point. If you what might , maybe , happen during the first year at an SMC bothers you, then stay away from fraternities too.
     
  12. SpchGrl

    SpchGrl Member

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    Thanks for your perspective.

    I don't consider verbal harassment/abuse hazing. I don't consider excessive PT hazing. I understand the risks of going to war. I know lots of stuff happens at universities everywhere.

    An 18 year old being submitted to a taser from another student on multiple occasions is in an entirely different category than all of those things. It's not just some arbitrary, subjective line; it's assault. The rook begged to be tased? That sounds incredibly ridiculous, especially in an ongoing situation (not something that just happened once or twice).

    Whether the rook has a good reputation is pretty much irrelevant. No one deserves to be assaulted, whether or not their classmates considered them "worthy" of the school, or the military.

    Your dedication to your school is admirable. However, if I type "School Name"+"Hazing," into google, way, way more hits pop up for Norwich than any other school I've checked, including some which ended in $$$$ settlements (like the female rook who was raped in 2016). Please don't say rape happens everywhere, on every campus. Because almost as disturbing as the rape was the university's response to it. And that part's on Norwich.

    I didn't come here to hate on NU. I considered it an option for our family, but reputations exist for a reason. I know that bad apples are everywhere, but the way a university responds to those infractions is telling. And when there's a lengthy and documented history of these things continuing to happen, it is logical to assume some form of abusive culture is prevalent throughout.

    https://vtdigger.org/2018/11/28/for...disclosed-settlement-school-sex-assault-case/
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
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  13. KuzNROTC

    KuzNROTC Member

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    I am not in any way defending the university I go to. I was just stating of what actually is. I stated that tasing the rook was wrong, and the offender is paying for it. I don't believe having a good or bad reputation is irrelevant, because it calls into question someone's integrity, and the truth they tell in a story. A rook begging to be tased may sound ridiculous. It is hard to describe if someone hasn't experienced an SMC lifestyle, but when rooks and cadre member get close (yes, cadre and rooks develop a leader and a follower relationship), their is joking in that a rook/someone will tell their cadre "I wanna be hazed." I know, this also sounds ridiculous, but it does happen.

    Whenever I look up hazing for other schools, things also pop up too, such as https://www.roanoke.com/news/cadets...cle_a1abe586-2cf1-5ea8-a776-6462e708f937.html, https://www.chron.com/news/houston-...ets-accused-of-hazing-freshman-19-1740852.php, http://mugdown.com/2015/01/28/corps-bans-shaking-hands-to-cut-back-on-hazing/, https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...8c8-9c04-e7de6646ee82/?utm_term=.85c522931da8, and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/library/vmi/vmi.htm.

    As for the rape lawsuit, I agree with you, this was definitely wrong, and Norwich reacted poorly to it. I can tell you now that there have been extra organizations made on campus, workshops, new policies, and added safety to the campus since then. I also want to say that the other SMCs/SA I linked above have also done the same, as they have also addressed new policies in preventing these incidents.

    As for not being able to say that rape happens at any campus. The fact of the matter is that it does. 1 in 10 women in higher education have reported being sexually assaulted, and this is not an old statistic either (https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rsities-rape-epidemic-sexual-assault-students). I was molested myself as a child, and my girlfriend was also sexually assaulted in high school. Guess where her sexual assaulter went to after high school? He went to a normal university.

    That also has to be taken into account, because we didn't report our situations, but so do a lot of people.

    Here is another story from a university that also went through a rape charge https://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-xpm-19910530-1991-05-30-9105300120-story.html.

    Again, I am not defending the actions of hazing, sexual harrassment, or any other misconduct. It is/should not be tolerated, and most of the time offenders are reprimanded just like the offender who tased the rook.
     
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  14. Tenley71

    Tenley71 Member

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    As a 23 year military spouse of an active duty service member, I completely understand the safety parameters of combat, serving, deployments etc. what I don’t like is how the school has handled the various situations.
     
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  15. SpchGrl

    SpchGrl Member

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  16. KuzNROTC

    KuzNROTC Member

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    All understandable, and I won't argue against that.

    I will say though we just had a school wide meeting (students, faculty, and staff), in which the President of the University spoke (you can watch online). The Title 9 parameters are tightening up, and Norwich has raised $100 million (and intending to raise $10 million more, before 2020) for improvements in facilities, abroad facilities, diverse opportunities, and discrimination issues.

    Also, the enhancing of the Title 9 act was also taken place last year, after the incident, if that reassures that the school is responding to mistreatment incidents.
     
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  17. KuzNROTC

    KuzNROTC Member

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    After reading what I wrote, I can see that I could be talking in a very critical tone.

    I'm not as brash as my post seems.

    You guys are actually right in caring for your DD and DS's safety.

    I just wanted to provide more information to shed more light than what may seem like a crapshoot on the outside.
     
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  18. SpchGrl

    SpchGrl Member

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    It's all good. Your comments truly are appreciated. There is a broad spectrum of experiences out there. Yours sounds like it's been amazing, and I'm glad for that.
     
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