I'm torn b\w Airforce and Navy ROTC.

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Deshawn,

That sounds like the I AM OUTTA HERE post.

I hope that is not true. You are an invaluable asset to this forum. You bring a unique view of why your peers are joining the military.
 
I like the motivation, but you are far too idealistic. In time college will further shape your thoughts, goals as well as career. My advice is to take one step at a time then after a series of steps you can look at being the next governor or ambassador.

For now pass high school and keep working on that grammar. I am one of the "younger" advice posters here and there are many much older than I that have invaluable experience to give if you can express yourself in a articulate fashion.
 
Plan B

This wanders from your initial query on which service would better suit your life goals, but if you don't have a back-up plan to pay for college, you need to develop one. If you already do, then you can stop reading.

Plan B: No N/AF/AROTC scholarship

If your intention is to train to be a leader and an officer, and you do not receive a four year ROTC scholarship, do not let this deter you. Depending on your family's finances, you may also qualify for a scholarship or aid from the school or non-ROTC government sources. Some schools offer scholarships without the student having to seek them, but these are in the minority. This means that you will have to apply for the scholarship or aid, making sure you meet the various deadlines and submit the required information. There are plenty of sources for guidance on the financial aid process, including other forums.

Room and board can amount to a substantial expense. I've read that Norwich provides free room and board for NROTC scholarship winners. Some schools may not do so for N/AF/AROTC.
 
My scholarship window has not opened yet.

The officer recruiter doing my application processing, says in a few months it will be open, but as of now, I can't help but wait.
 
I would suggest the book "A Time To Fight" by Senator James Webb, USNA Class of 1968, one of the most highly decorated Marines in Vietnam, for a look at a man who did what you want to do.

Perhaps you would want to take his route? His experiences were much more character forming than sitting in an air conditioned trailer preparing intel briefings for some colonel. Just a thought.
 
Spud: that is an EXCELLENT suggestion.

Additional books by John Glenn "A Memoir" and John McCain "Faith of my Fathers" would be good to read as well.
 
The USMC has a professional reading program for all ranks - the other branches may as well. The Commandant's list can be found on line.

The listed books may not necessarily apply directly to a life in the political arena, but many speak to the character of military service.

The intent of the Commandant in issuing this list is stated as follows: "In an era of constrained resources, our professional reading program is designed to provide Marines with an intellectual framework to study warfare and enhance their thinking and decision making skills. The mind, like the body, grows soft with inactivity. All Marines must understand that mental fitness is as demanding and as important as physical fitness, for both require commitment and perseverance. In a world characterized by rapid change and great uncertainty, our reading program will act as a combat multiplier by providing all Marines with a common frame of reference and historical perspective on warfare, human factors in combat and decisionmaking. In so doing, the program will also strengthen the threads of cohesion that make our Marine Corps unique."
 
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I will look into it.

I will read those books that were suggested, and learn what is nessessary to lead.
 
PIMA, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I believe he was making a distinction between AF Intel fields. Human (HUMINT) and Counter Intelligence.

Deshawn, I have one question for you, mainly out of curiosity. If the military called right now and told you that you could not serve, would you still run for president/public office? Is the military a make or break deal for you?

On the other hand, I did find this thread entertaining.
 
Tough

It would be hard, being that no one would know me,and also, I would be lacking the leadership skills nessessary to lead my country, correctly,and effectively.
 
I'm sure you have already checked this out but for the benefit of those who haven't: According to the U.S. Constitution, you must be at least 35 years old to be President. While that delay may suck, at least you can pull down a Senator's paycheck if you are 30 and be a member of the House of Representatives when you hit 25.

This is one of the differences between ROTC and SAs that nobody mentioned in another thread. If you are 21 when you graduate from USMA, you would have to serve five years active duty and would miss the "be a Congressman at 25" goal.
 
EDelahanty,

Actuallly, for AFROTC many grads will owe around 5 yrs at least too. Yes, theoretically they can walk at 4 yrs, but people typically miss the fine print. 4 yrs AD. ROTC grads are not considered AD until they report to their 1st base, and it can take 6-9 months for that school assignment.

I do not know about intel, but I do know that for rated, they sign a new commitment for UPT. It is 11 yrs., but that clock does not start until they graduate/wing from UPT, so it is actually 12 yrs from stepping on base, and ad in the wait time, it is closer to 13 when they can walk.

If Intel school is the same, and assume it is a PCS, not TDY, his clock would start @ 1 yr later making it 5 yrs anyway.

That is one of the differences candidates do not understand when they go through the process of applying. They may say 4 yrs owed, but honestly, chances of leaving at 4 on the dot, and not closer to 5 is rare. That is before you start throwing in TA and PCS commitments.

We are spending a lot of time here on assuming he will commission, and serve, not enough time explaining how competitive ROTC is for AF/N as a non-tech major just to commission.

I.E. He can go AFROTC without a scholarship, and let's assume it was SAT that hurt him. It was good enough to get into Norwich, not high enough for a non-tech scholarship or an ISP. 2 yrs from now when he goes to the SFT board, that same exact SAT score will be part of his WCS for selection, and a pretty big % chunk to boot. SFT overall selection rate is in the 60%, they now have 93% selection rate, but it is the fine print again. Dets are now holding mini-boards for C200's and informing cadets if they will get their support prior to the board meeting. This allows the C200 in the fall to decide on their own to stay with the program or dis-enroll.

No SFT, no POC, no commissioning. He is not about to transfer over to NROTC because he is now too late for them also.

What does that leave him? What if he attends Norwich because it tied into his military plan for his goals, and not because he wants to go to Norwich? Wouldn't we all here tell him to pick colleges you want, that is a strong program for your major with a ROTC unit you like? That would be my response. I would tell him go to a college you like, not because of an illusion in your mind that this is the school for my 20 yr life plan.

We all became so fixed on his long term goals, we also placed the cart before the horse. Not one of us, asked the really important questions.

What is your SAT
What is your CGPA
What is your PFA
Do you have medical issues
Do you want to serve on a boat, or do you want to be landlocked

Everything we all typically ask if a poster came on here and said:
I am torn between AF and NROTC, I want to go into Intel, and majoring in Govt and Politics or a non-tech field.

Caveat here, I would still ask the same questions if the poster said I am not looking for a scholarship, because like NROTC, AFROTC has that 2 yr make or break marker. Best predictor for the future is their history.

This all can be moot, he might turn to us and say he has a DQ issue that is not waiverable by either branch.

He might say that his SAT is 1080, which would put him in an uphill battle for SFT/EA, thus I would say take that SAT again, and again, and again because come next fall it is part of your AFROTC record. Same with his cgpa. I would be worried if he said I have a 3.0 uwcgpa. That uwcgpa is strong enough to get into colleges, but for a non-tech major and SFT he will need a 3.3-3.4 cgpa at college. Pull 1 semester of 2.9, and you are looking at academic pain for the next 2, basically 3.6 for each semester. College in ROTC makes HS look like 1st grade with recess. It is not just PT and LLAB a couple of hours a week. You will have jobs in ROTC, and all of them will require time on top of PT and LLAB, especially as you keep getting higher up in rank. That is before you even discuss spit shining shoes and buckles, or ironing shirts for inspections. Grades can suffer. If the grades suffer, so does their OML.
 
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So only people who serve in the military are leaders and have leadership abilities?

I would also disagree on people not knowing you because you didn't serve. Unless you make GEN, the vast majority (I'd argue about 99%) of Americans will have absolutely zero clue who you are. Most think GEN Petraeus is the only General in history. I bet most, if not all, of us here wouldn't be able to name all the O-10's off the top of our head.

These questions aren't meant to start an argument, but rather to pick your brain a little.
 
I agree with you -Bull-, but let me throw a different angle into the mix of why their premise is not realistic.

Gen. Wesley Clark
http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/

Clark joined the 2004 race for the Democratic Party presidential nomination as a candidate on September 17, 2003, but withdrew from the primary race on February 11, 2004. 5 months later.

He won the Oklahoma primary, but his problem was typical of anyone running for a national seat. He ran out of $$$. That and he couldn't connect with the voters.

Politics is a lot more than a resume, let's be honest, if you went on resume Barack Obama would not be President. People connected with him, personally, and that created a trust. It is the reason IMPO Romney will lose to him in Nov. They don't talk about favorables and unfavorables for no reason.

It is the same reason Bush beat Gore. Bush, like Obama is the guy you want to have a beer with, Clark Gore, McCain and Romney feel more like visiting the in-laws, you just count the hours until you are no longer around them.

Doesn't make it right that this is how voters vote, but that is part of our system now. We equate like to trust, trust to qualified for the job. We listen to what the media says, and rarely investigate on our own.

Nobody flame me about my in law comment, it really was about the favorable and unfavorables issue.

Serving in the military for political goals 15 yrs from now is not a good enough reason...ask GHWB 41. He lost to Clinton, a guy that never served 1 day and admitted to smoking pot, compared to 41 who not only flew in WWII, served as an MOC, Envoy to China (we had no Embassy, thus Envoy = Ambassador), Director of the CIA, Ambassador to the UN, VP and as President lead the successful campaign against Iraq.

Clinton won in part on a couple of things. It is the economy stupid. Read my lips no new taxes, and the mess up on visiting a grocery store where he was in awe of the scanners.

Voters felt 41 was old and out of touch with their lives, unemployment was high, housing market was in the tanks, there was no military threat. Clinton on the other hand was charm, young and vibrant. Yes, he was an adulterer, but to many that was between him and Hillary, and not a reason not to vote for him.

Clinton's resume was not why he became no. 42. If joining the military is the reason, re-think it. Trust me, hopefully I am around in 28 yrs, but you serving 10 or 20 yrs in the military will not be why I pull the lever for you. Like the majority of voters it is going to come down to my wallet. That probably means, I am going to care more about SS, than abortions. I am going to care more about Medi-Care than college loans. I will still care about the military because it impacts my wallet...VA benefits.

Deshawn, if you have yet to take APGov, I suggest you do, I know with my kids their positions and perspectives changed a lot because it was the 1st time they started to see the nuances and how it impacts everything within the system.
 
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I do not know about intel, but I do know that for rated, they sign a new commitment for UPT. It is 11 yrs., but that clock does not start until they graduate/wing from UPT, so it is actually 12 yrs from stepping on base, and ad in the wait time, it is closer to 13 when they can walk.
11 years? Was 10 after completing UPT which would amount to around 12 years total when school and wait time is included. Did something change?
 
It would be hard, being that no one would know me,and also, I would be lacking the leadership skills nessessary to lead my country, correctly,and effectively.

Huh? Do you have the mistaken impression that the military is the only place to develop leadership skills? I don't think so. The military certainly creates leaders but its not the only route. Let's see.. Bill Clinton? Lyndon Johnson? Barak Obama? Ronald Reagan? I'm sure there's lots of leaders you can think of who never served in the military.
 
Huh? Do you have the mistaken impression that the military is the only place to develop leadership skills? I don't think so. The military certainly creates leaders but its not the only route. Let's see.. Bill Clinton? Lyndon Johnson? Barak Obama? Ronald Reagan? I'm sure there's lots of leaders you can think of who never served in the military.

Though I see your point, those four may not be the best examples of non-military service. When LBJ was a Congressman, he arranged to get commissioned as an officer in the naval reserve. McArthur awarded him a Silver Star, which would suggest he was politically astute, Johnson being a protege of FDR.

Ronald Reagan studied Army Home-Study Extension courses in the 1930s. He enlisted as a private in April 1937 and was commissioned as a second lt. a month later in the cavalry (remember what I said about dragoons). Although he never left the country during WW2, he was proficient enough as an actor to convince himself he had helped liberate Auschwitz, or so the story goes.

Clinton and Obama never literally served in the military, it is true, but during college or after they did train for service in the Bolivian infantry. Also, as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton was head of that state's national guard. In his recent run for the Republican nomination, which apparently ended all too soon, Rick Perry often cited his bold leadership of the Texas National Guard. I suppose the same thing would apply to Romney in Massachusetts. Hope you weren't drinking milk as you read that.
 
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Packer, the last I know it is now 11 for UPT after winging, I think 7 for CSO.

People forget for rated, every branch worries about commercial airlines. They can change yrly regarding the commitment.

Bullet entered and in 5 yrs it went from 7 to 9 to 10 to 8. Grads that signed for 10 couldn't re-sign for 8.

Honestly, it really doesn't matter if it is 12 or 13. I would say to anyone and everyone going rated, expect to do 20. Bonuses, promotions, PCS's, PME's will make it close to impossible to leave at 12 or 13 yrs. We haven't even discussed kids, and mtgs.

There is a poster here, that commissioned in 10, in 08 he was at our house and thought I was just "old" and a wife, I was exaggerating. He was at our house 6 weeks ago, and he now acknowledges 15 yrs is his truly his 1st out. Problem is how do you walk away form 50% retirement the rest of your life for 1 more tour?

He will be like the majority...he will do 1 more tour.

That has been my point all along. Don't walk in an think I do X amount of yrs. and I leave. Life gets in the way.

Take TA for grad, and now you are in until you hit 6 yrs. YR 5 they send you to AK for 3 yrs. (Overseas), now you are in until yr 11 because you accepted a return stateside. YR 10 they promote you to O4, you accept, now you are in until YR 13. YR 12 they send you to PME in residence. Now you are in until 15. Are you really going to not take 1 more tour, with the chance of retiring as an O5? You are 36 yo, 3 kids, a mtg, and car payments.

I didn't do rated, my example is non-rated.

You all may think you can walk at 4, legally it is correct. Logistically, life gets in the way.
 
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