In a tough situation

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sct980203

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Not sure what I'm looking for here, but I have to vent if nothing else to a community that may understand. At least the parents might. DS is currently a USAFA sophomore on scholarship. He loves ROTC and is doing exceptional in his studies. He is an Electrical Engineering student with a 4.0 GPA with junior standing due to most freshman classes credited due to HS AP classes. He also had a 4.0 HS GPA. His problem is he will not accept the shot and we are expecting it will be required for summer field training. He was granted an exemption by his university for this year and has had no issues complying with all university guidelines.

I guess my question is what may happen come spring semester and he is selected for field training, but will not take the shot. Although my research indicates that currently ROTC students do not fall under the current DOD mandates, I assume he will be forcibly removed from ROTC and not allowed to continue under scholarship. Will he be liable for the scholarship money that has been paid for the past two years? That's a pretty big chunk of money and I assume he won't have the option to serve as an enlisted to pay back his debt. This is all very sad to watch as he was in tears talking to us about it and how he may not be able to continue in ROTC and serve his country. As parents, our hearts are broken for this huge decision he has to make and its implications for his future.
 
You can easily find the various press releases on the DoD guidance for COVID-19 vaccination, especially the ones starting in August, giving the Services a heads up on the mandatory policy and who it applies to, etc.

I’ve included a link below with some general FAQs, which may be helpful.

I assume DS has formed his thoughts on this and decision not to get the vaccine well before he started his sophomore academic year, which I think is the end of the period where he can walk away from his scholarship and the program with no obligation. Did he go to see his chain of command with his concerns, inform them of his position, and get official guidance on consequences and options? One option would have been to step away from the program at that time, continue to do well in college, and bide his time, watching the progress of the situation, and targeting OTS as a path to commissioning after he obtained his B.S., if the vaccination requirement was stood down a few years down the road.

Now that he is wrapping up his first sophomore semester, he is well into the commitment window. If he has not formally informed his chain of command, he should do so, so he knows exactly where he stands before he starts taking scholarship money for next semester and potentially running the bill up more.

Clearly he has great potential and skills, and if this path closes for him, and he is firm in his conviction, he will have to search for doors that will open for him.

If things get messy, there are law firms which specialize in service academy and ROTC disenrollments and separations scholarship recoupment, etc. They are usually staffed by former military JAGs. I suspect there may be others in similar situations, and these attorneys advocate for their clients by using knowledge of the processes, “the system,” what’s negotiable, past precedent, etc.

Best wishes for an outcome which allows for forward movement in the direction that suits him best. His journey is just beginning, and he clearly has many gifts to use in a productive snd successful life.

 
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There is a fairly long thread on this issue in the USMA forum which may be interesting for you to read through. The bottom line, this is not a tough situation it is a very simple one. The military has vaccine mandates, it has for decades it probably will for ever. It covers a variety of shots, right now one of them is COVID, it likely will be for a while, tomorrow there may be a new vaccine for something else and that may be added to the list and service members will roll up their sleeves and get it because that is how it works. If he is not willing to do this then a career in the military is not for him, there are many other ways he can still live a life of service outside of the military and many of these will not require mandatory vaccinations.
 
No way to butter this up; he will need to get the shot. Active duty members are required to do so, just as they are with the 5 other shots I needed to get before commissioning. For NROTC they are already asking for vaccine documentation to get the ball rolling to plan summer training. Just as you stated, he will be required to pay back the scholarship if he drops out of ROTC, and will not be able to take the "serve as an enlisted" option because the shot is required for everyone.
 
This is a simple one (in theory,) it is mandated by his future employer and mandated by the system that is paying for his education. What is next? I don’t want to wear my helmet or carry my rifle? This is part of his kit. He will be tasked with enforcing this mandate when he is commissioned. Time to sh** or get off the pot.
 
Already good advice provided. In the big picture, this isn’t about HIM. It’s about the military as a whole.

I hope this thread doesn’t turn into a ‘vax vs non-vax’ debate. Those are useless and we already have one, referenced already. BC this ISNT a debate for military….you do what you are told. Period.

Here is my add to points already made from forum superstars who know: as Mom/Dad, I would spend my time at this point educating him about his concerns/fears. Take him to a trusted medical doctor. Maybe some other health care workers knee deep in caring for people with the virus. Make sure he is getting accurate, first hand info (versus college ‘hearsay’, which is probably loud in his ear from his peers presently) in order for him to make his absolute best decision. And include a financial planner person to really hammer in the TVM he is dealing with in his financial repayment. Even as captmj stated, getting a lawyer….THAT will cost money.

Personally I would also not bail him out in this. Financially. These are his adult decisions and choices. Money is all part of it. DONT read this as a statement of ‘health/vax vs money’ line of thing. BC it’s not. But IMO, all choices have consequences and the financial burden/repayment/fees/future tuition IS a result of his choice here. Granted when he signed on, the VAX piece wasn’t there but he did sign on to do all that is ordered of him, and this is a piece of that. Again, NOT a debate about the VAX…but rather a statement of fact of what he signed up for on the dotted line. To include doing things one doesn’t necessarily agree with….

At this point, I would focus on some real medical/religious/xxx education so he is truly making an informed decision. And include a financial planner discussion about the true financial burden he will be taking on. Lastly, include employers he may be interested in working for. Chances are at least some are requiring their employees to get vax. This isn’t unique to the military. NOT DEBATING legitimacy of this but he may also be closing those doors.

Maybe he is looking for a way to get out. Who knows. But he need facts to make his decision.

Good luck….this would be a difficult challenge. But it’s HIS to make. Help him to know exactly what he is signing up for via that decision. It really is hard to watch our children do things we feel are not wise…been there done that…but for some? That’s the only way they learn. And if he leaves? It’s NOT the end of the world. It’s only a different world.
 
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Emsa said:
There is a fairly long thread on this issue in the USMA forum which may be interesting for you to read through. The bottom line, this is not a tough situation it is a very simple one. The military has vaccine mandates, it has for decades it probably will for ever. It covers a variety of shots, right now one of them is COVID, it likely will be for a while, tomorrow there may be a new vaccine for something else and that may be added to the list and service members will roll up their sleeves and get it because that is how it works. If he is not willing to do this then a career in the military is not for him, there are many other ways he can still live a life of service outside of the military and many of these will not require mandatory vaccinations.
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+1000. What I cannot understand is that we have all been getting vaccinated FOR YEARS for Smallpox, Polio, Tuberculosis, Diprheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Pneumonia and others. Why do people have an issue with the COVID vaccine? That is IDIOTIC. Sorry, I don’t respect their decision. Follow orders son, or get another job. And once you start sophomore year, you will owe us some money back.
 
I'm sending my students out on job shadows next week to the area's largest health system. Their requirements are: flu shot, negative TB skin test (PPD), and fully vaccinated against COVID-19. The students were required to show me proof of all this and I X'd them off on a spread sheet. One girl walked up to my desk with her shot record from her pediatrician and she had already paid her liability insurance of 20 dollars. I asked, What about your COVID shot? Where's your card? She said, I have a religious exemption. Geez. She continued with, oh yeah, I talked to Ms. Smith about it. Ms. Smith is our career services specialist and in charge of this job shadow thing. She had not talked to her but tried slipping by.

The military isn't the only organization requiring the vaccine. My students need it for just a one day experience at a healthcare job site. It's going to be that way for a long time.
 
Afterthought.. how has he been able to avoid the vax thus far? My guys had to get it last SPRING. Is ROTC different? Did OP not see this coming? He only has one year to walk away. That’s gone, obviously. But why didn’t he see this coming when this was a hot issue with military last Spring? Did he not miss out on summer trainings (doesn’t rotc have summer trainings?) via no vax?
 
Devil Doc said:
I'm sending my students out on job shadows next week to the area's largest health system. Their requirements are: flu shot, negative TB skin test (PPD), and fully vaccinated against COVID-19. The students were required to show me proof of all this and I X'd them off on a spread sheet. One girl walked up to my desk with her shot record from her pediatrician and she had already paid her liability insurance of 20 dollars. I asked, What about your COVID shot? Where's your card? She said, I have a religious exemption. Geez. She continued with, oh yeah, I talked to Ms. Smith about it. Ms. Smith is our career services specialist and in charge of this job shadow thing. She had not talked to her but tried slipping by.

The military isn't the only organization requiring the vaccine. My students need it for just a one day experience at a healthcare job site. It's going to be that way for a long time.
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Exactly…
 
sct980203 said:
This is all very sad to watch as he was in tears talking to us about it and how he may not be able to continue in ROTC and serve his country.
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This may sound cold and callous. But we are adults and we are discussing the military, a field not known for warm fuzzies. Here goes: @sct980203, the operative words above are “serve his country.” He either does or he does not. Full stop. He is making a conscious choice now, just as he made a conscious choice earlier to serve his country. He committed to follow lawful orders. The order to get vaccinated is lawful — as lawful as the orders to get vaccinated against myriad other conditions.

I have tremendous admiration, respect and gratitude for people who join the military, because they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. For officers, the responsibility is even more grave because they are tasked with making the actual decision for others to make the ultimate sacrifice. That is a huge and solemn responsibility. True leaders are those who only ask others to do something that they themselves are also willing to do. Anything less would be morally irresponsible.

So essentially, your DS is willing to potentially order others to their deaths but is not himself willing to get a vaccine that those same others have had to do. May sound melodramatic, but that’s it in a nutshell. That’s hardly leadership, in my mind. Nor is it service.

Cold and callous, I know. But my DD and DS have also signed up to serve and sacrifice. They are now learning what that truly means, and the many sacrifices involved — from daily petty annoyances, to time away from loved ones, to missed opportunities afforded mere civilians, to the inability to make decisions that others take for granted.

The phrase that gets bandied around is “to be part of something bigger than myself.” I’m so grateful to those who believe that and act on it. There is no shame if your DS wants to step away from that, and he would not owe anyone an explanation or rationalization. It’s a personal decision — an adult decision — and the consequences are all his. Based on your description of his accomplishments thus far, he will do well in civilian life.
 
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sct980203 said:
Not sure what I'm looking for here, but I have to vent if nothing else to a community that may understand. At least the parents might. DS is currently a USAFA sophomore on scholarship. He loves ROTC and is doing exceptional in his studies. He is an Electrical Engineering student with a 4.0 GPA with junior standing due to most freshman classes credited due to HS AP classes. He also had a 4.0 HS GPA. His problem is he will not accept the shot and we are expecting it will be required for summer field training. He was granted an exemption by his university for this year and has had no issues complying with all university guidelines.

I guess my question is what may happen come spring semester and he is selected for field training, but will not take the shot. Although my research indicates that currently ROTC students do not fall under the current DOD mandates, I assume he will be forcibly removed from ROTC and not allowed to continue under scholarship. Will he be liable for the scholarship money that has been paid for the past two years? That's a pretty big chunk of money and I assume he won't have the option to serve as an enlisted to pay back his debt. This is all very sad to watch as he was in tears talking to us about it and how he may not be able to continue in ROTC and serve his country. As parents, our hearts are broken for this huge decision he has to make and its implications for his future.
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First, referring to some of these responses to the OP, glad to see I’m not the only poster on this board who can be over the top self righteous from time to time.

Second, I sympathize with the OP. My 18 year old freshman ROTC cadet got the Covid vaccine under duress this past summer after his university pulled a bait and switch with regard to the university’s vaccine requirement (not required before the acceptance deadline and then suddenly required after). His desire to start on his path to service made HIS decision easier. He’ll do whatever it takes to serve.

The conversation about the Covid vaccine may be “easy” for those in military service. It is not an easy conversation amongst us civilians. Unfortunately, Covid and the vaccine have been politicized to the point that no one - not even the medical community - can agree on what’s right. I believe firmly in private citizens making their on healthcare choices. The fact that folks in the military are willing to do “whatever it takes” also gives me a lot of comfort.

I take exception to some of the comments above that say this isn’t about vax versus anti-vax. I call BS on some of you based on the time of your comments.
 
dadinnc said:
First, referring to some of these responses to the OP, glad to see I’m not the only poster on this board who can be over the top self righteous from time to time.

Second, I sympathize with the OP. My 18 year old freshman ROTC cadet got the Covid vaccine under duress this past summer after his university pulled a bait and switch with regard to the university’s vaccine requirement (not required before the acceptance deadline and then suddenly required after). His desire to start on his path to service made HIS decision easier. He’ll do whatever it takes to serve.

The conversation about the Covid vaccine may be “easy” for those in military service. It is not an easy conversation amongst us civilians. Unfortunately, Covid and the vaccine have been politicized to the point that no one - not even the medical community - can agree on what’s right. I believe firmly in private citizens making their on healthcare choices. The fact that folks in the military are willing to do “whatever it takes” also gives me a lot of comfort.

I take exception to some of the comments above that say this isn’t about vax versus anti-vax. I call BS on some of you based on the time of your comments.
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My comments are NOT about vax/anti vax. My post is about joining the military and giving up freedoms and choices. Period. You don’t take an oath to obey, and then get to pick and choose what to obey.

As a civilian? Yes you do. But not as a member of the military. And that’s known when you sign up. Not BS.
 
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Emsa said:
There is a fairly long thread on this issue in the USMA forum which may be interesting for you to read through. The bottom line, this is not a tough situation it is a very simple one. The military has vaccine mandates, it has for decades it probably will for ever. It covers a variety of shots, right now one of them is COVID, it likely will be for a while, tomorrow there may be a new vaccine for something else and that may be added to the list and service members will roll up their sleeves and get it because that is how it works. If he is not willing to do this then a career in the military is not for him, there are many other ways he can still live a life of service outside of the military and many of these will not require mandatory vaccinations.
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Exactly right, and it applies whatever one's view of the utility of this particular vaccine requirement, which people rightly have differing opinions about. Sometimes orders are stupid (not saying this one is, but some view it that way), but unless they are unlawful, then there is no choice in the matter.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
That's wrong. The medical community OVERWHELMINGLY believes that everyone must get vaccinated with the COVID vaccine to protect us all. 100% of everyone will never agree on anything. Some still believe the world is flat.
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There are enough in the medical community who have spoken out - or even resigned instead of being vaccinated - to demonstrate a lack of agreement. In general, the field of medicine does have a bias toward pharmaceuticals. I don't say that as a criticism, but I do believe it to be a fact.
 
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