In a tough situation

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Korab said:
Lol - the cdc.

You misread my post. I didn’t say any of those things.
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No you made up stuff without support from any scientific organization.

I was asking you to support your argument that the vaccine is not working . I did not say that the vaccine is perfect. But that it is not working.

Lol -the science——-this is the world many seem to want to live in.
 
Folks, the OP has gotten lots of great input about her DS and his options. If you want to debate COVID or the vaccine… take it to another thread, one outside of this forum would even be better. Let’s focus on the OPs questions.
 
Korab said:
The military requirement for the vaccine has nothing to do with effectiveness and everything to do politics, which is why there is pushback.
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This is true, and I guarantee you at some point in the near future the definition of fully vaccinated will change and we will be required to get booster shots. Just about everything is politicized these days even though it might not sound like it.
 
From an ROTC standpoint we're not in yet so our choices are an either, or- take it or else...From the standpoint of someone already in- wasn't the anthrax vaccine halted for some time and at one point deemed illegal by our courts? At some later point in time it was approved and folks resumed getting it again. Currently, there are pending lawsuits against DoD about this vaccine...

Full disclosure: I'm a college sophomore, a contracted AROTC cadet and I got the J&J shot over the summer. I chose J&J since the technology it is based on has been utilized before (2013-2016) for Ebola and Zika; this is the first time mRNA technology has been on the market anywhere in the world. I did get a fever and joint pain about 12 hours after the shot and it lasted roughly 12 hours. I had no other issues and if anyone asked me- I would recommend the J&J over the Moderna or Pfizer. If you have time still the Novavax or the SKB vaccine appear like they should be okay as they are based on tried and true methods, similar in nature to the shingles vaccine and if I wasn't required to have my shot already this year, I would get the Novavax or SKB one.

Why do people have an issue with the COVID vaccine? See the bold above for a reason. If you read some current literature, not stuff from the spring/summer when we saw the "vaccines" were having a positive effect. Just last week, the WSJ had an article stating that there's been almost 2 million breakthrough cases just in the USA, resulting in 72,000 hospitalizations and 20,000 deaths, so far in 2021. It was just reported that more people have died so far this year, than all of last year, including at least 20,000 fully vaccinated people. People trying to shame folks by advising we have received other vaccines. Ok that's cool we have received vaccinations conveying immunity from other diseases. Yet so far in my time on earth, I have never heard of millions of measles-mumps-rubella breakthrough cases in a year, millions of TB breakthrough cases in a year, millions of chicken pox breakthrough cases in a year, etc. Which other vaccines have you received in your life with millions of breakthrough numbers, resulting in 10's of thousands of hospitalizations and 10's of thousands of deaths in a year, in just our country? Now we know people counter with not everyone has the vaccine, my campus has a 92% vaccination rate among students, faculty and staff, but we still have have on average 20-30 cases per week. Nursing homes where 100% of the patients have the vaccine are still having outbreaks. Perhaps, because our old vaccines met the definition of what vaccine meant then, rather than this new definition of what a vaccine means. I can understand why people are exclaiming, make it make sense...
I am obviously not against the shot, or any vaccines, but I would refrain from labeling someone who is skeptical or hesitant as an idiot. African-Americans were given Syphilis ( ever hear of the Tuskeegee Study? ) by our gov't. We gave malaria to prisoners, we sprayed a chemical from a plane in Operation Sea-Spray in San Francisco, DOW chemical and the US Army studied the effects of dioxin and herbicides on prisoners, we tested radiation on people and many more vile acts; all of these experiments were performed in the name of science and now we have a new virus, new vaccine technology and we're asking everyone to trust the science, despite our past history of doing some extremely cruel things in the name of science...I won't judge people harshly for not being all trusting of the science, or the science community. Couple this horrific past with the FDA saying they need until 2076 to release all of the information they reviewed in approving the Pfizer vaccine.... To conclude, with all of this info known as of today taken as a whole sum, if I didn't have the shot yet- I would probably be among the group questioning if the currently available Covid-19 shots are like other "vaccines" we have received and if it's the right call to get it, when there's tried and true technology close to coming to market. I don't have that choice now, because the bullet has already been shot...
 
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Small Team Bacsi said:
No you made up stuff without support from any scientific organization.

I was asking you to support your argument that the vaccine is not working . I did not say that the vaccine is perfect. But that it is not working.

Lol -the science——-this is the world many seem to want to live in.
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No I didn’t and no I didn’t. The study on myocarditis is a google search away. Go read it.
The CDC and Fauci’s response to Covid had been a joke - and a rotating one at that. Science has been replaced by “science”. Anyone with a scientific background and an open mind can’t look at covid coverage and recommendations without their jaw agape. Medical research and opinion contrary to the status quo being labeled “misinformation”. Alternative treatments besides the government authorize jab demonized. Medical doctors FIRED because they think differently. Ignoring the factual reality of acquired immunity. Destroying our economy to obtain compliance.

if you ever question whether politics has anything to do with Covid, ask yourself why the newest flavor of Covid is called Omicron and not Xi.
 
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Korab said:
At this point, for healthy young males, you are as likely to contract myocarditis or other serious heart issues from the vaccine as you are to suffer serious consequences from contracting Covid.
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I read that having COVID causes SIX TIMES as many cases of myocarditis as the vaccine.
 
NavyHoops said:
Once again… unless this deals with what will happen to OPs son or OPs son’s options… take it else where. The arguments over COVID and vaccines, regardless of view, go elsewhere.
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LOL...as typical, this conversation quickly diverged into political theories of conspiraciess and fake news arguments. As an elder, having raised two very politically charged daughters who sometimes have gone over the brink of good sense....I have empathy for the parent posting their son's dilemma. Apparently, the individual has prepared themselves well for higher education, chosen to apply for and receive one of the few AFROTC scholarships awarded, and is doing well in college and in the ROTC program. If these basic facts are correct, the question to pose to this individual is are do they understand fully the consequences of their decision, and are they prepared for the consequences of following whatever conscientious decision they make? I would remind them that their life experiences are comparably few, and they have basically been protected from consequences living with their parents and now living in the academic safety of a college - where poor decisions mostly result in a poor grade or suspension of privileges, etc. This, however, is a big decision he has to make all on his own - and it has serious life and financial consequences that he alone will have to bear. Mom and Dad cannot bail him out of this decision. Then I would (as I have) close my eyes, pray and crosss my fingers and hope for the best.
 
As a combat vet and the son of a combat vet , the first thing I talked to my first and second generation children who expressed a desire for a SA or serving in the military, was not the chance of their golden future , or future riches , or the free education they might receive , it was about risk.


Risk——something until a Covid thread I have never seen parents or applicants express worry about on these military forums.

And if they did end up in combat the risk could be off the charts bad.

By serving even in a non combat mos I told them they were placing themselves at greater risk than most of their civilian friends——for the allegedly possibly maybe greater good.

If they were not comfortable with the potential risk that comes with serving in the US military they should consider a civilian school and a safer civilian occupation.

No disgrace with wanting to avoid risk.

It’s just that the US military is a poor choice of jobs for those that want more individual choice and more safety and less risk in their life.

If the OPs child walks away then good luck to them. But the ones I really care about are the ones that stay.
 
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OP here. I've read every word of those who took the time to reply, many post were worthy of reading several times. I even had DS read several posts. Last night at dinner, I took the chance that we could have a civil family discussion on his dilemma. His sister is the exact opposite of him on the political scale and I thought it would be good to get her perspective. She asked if he still felt the same as he did 3 years ago about wanting to serve. Three years ago he was so gung-ho on the AF that he applied to the Academy, filled every square, but unfortunately didn't make the cut. He's not an athlete (altho definitely a leader who sets tremendously high standards for himself and those around him) so I think that was the bottom line on his failing to make the cut. Anyway, not being able to follow this order made him question whether he is cut out for service in the military. He is not afraid of the vaccine, but feels very strongly that it is his decision, and his alone, as to what medical chemicals he will put in his body. He looks at it as a human rights issue and stated that "human rights don't change based on the current thoughts of the medical "experts"". He believes it is a basic human right to decide what and what is not injected in to his body. Can't say I disagree, but it certainly is complicated.

Together we decided he will continue with ROTC into the next semester as this situation is fluid with regards to the vaccine. As is his development as a young man and his philosophies of life. So things can, and will change on both fronts. If he is removed from ROTC for failure to comply, then we'll cross that bridge when we get there. On the money front it'll be a wash as we'll either pay the school now, or pay the AF back later if he is removed. Till then, we are staying the course, which, if there are any Bogleheads here, you know that usually provides the best outcome.

Thanks again to all who took the time to comment. It is truly appreciated.
 
I am late to the party once again, and this may have been answered earlier but I speed scrolled through the various food fights on this topic.

First, and this may apply only to NROTC but I suspect it is true of all ROTC. When cadets or midshipmen raise their hand and take the oath, and they are on scholarship, they become part of the IRR (individual ready reserve). While very rarely making much of a difference, being part of IRR does in fact mean that orders from DoD and other qualified authorities apply to them. Basically, when you accept scholarship monies, you have "taken the King's shilling".

As to what can happen for those who refuse the vaccine. First and foremost, and this has already occurred at some NROTC units, if a student fails to meet university requirements for continued study (ie, the university requires vaccination and a student refuses without medical exemption or an approved religious exemption), then the student can be disenrolled for failing to meet university requirements. This is along the same line of thinking as if a student fails their classes.

Following that, in order for midshipmen/cadets to be considered safe for travel on cruises or summer training, they have to meet the DoD requirements.

The issue of whether or not recoupment would be expected varies by service component. But as was mentioned previously, if a person cannot be commissioned due to vaccination status, then they would not be able to enlist either.....barring some very remote possibilities.

Hope that helps on some of the issues raised by the OP.
 
There are still officers, NCO's and enlisted who are serving on active duty, the Reserves and the Guard who have not been vaccinated and have requested religious exemptions to doing so. It shall be interesting to see how all of this shakes out in the end.
 
sct980203 said:
Not sure what I'm looking for here, but I have to vent if nothing else to a community that may understand. At least the parents might. DS is currently a USAFA sophomore on scholarship. He loves ROTC and is doing exceptional in his studies. He is an Electrical Engineering student with a 4.0 GPA with junior standing due to most freshman classes credited due to HS AP classes. He also had a 4.0 HS GPA. His problem is he will not accept the shot and we are expecting it will be required for summer field training. He was granted an exemption by his university for this year and has had no issues complying with all university guidelines.

I guess my question is what may happen come spring semester and he is selected for field training, but will not take the shot. Although my research indicates that currently ROTC students do not fall under the current DOD mandates, I assume he will be forcibly removed from ROTC and not allowed to continue under scholarship. Will he be liable for the scholarship money that has been paid for the past two years? That's a pretty big chunk of money and I assume he won't have the option to serve as an enlisted to pay back his debt. This is all very sad to watch as he was in tears talking to us about it and how he may not be able to continue in ROTC and serve his country. As parents, our hearts are broken for this huge decision he has to make and its implications for his future.
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What does "USAFA" mean in your message? The acronym list for this site says that it means United States Air Force Academy.
 
benMendel06 said:
What does "USAFA" mean in your message? The acronym list for this site says that it means United States Air Force Academy.
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I think most readers kindly assumed it was a typo, the kind often introduced by Siri or other auto-complete tools, and when the detailed narrative context quickly made it clear this was an anguished parent watching the turbulent waters being navigated by a beloved son in AFROTC, gently let it go.
 
So your son believes he is somehow above what others are required to do? My son is an active duty 2nd Lt. and was required to not only receive the COVID vaccine but numerous other shots as well..he did - no questions asked because that’s what it means to be a Officer and Leader..
 
sct980203 said:
OP here. I've read every word of those who took the time to reply, many post were worthy of reading several times. I even had DS read several posts. Last night at dinner, I took the chance that we could have a civil family discussion on his dilemma. His sister is the exact opposite of him on the political scale and I thought it would be good to get her perspective. She asked if he still felt the same as he did 3 years ago about wanting to serve. Three years ago he was so gung-ho on the AF that he applied to the Academy, filled every square, but unfortunately didn't make the cut. He's not an athlete (altho definitely a leader who sets tremendously high standards for himself and those around him) so I think that was the bottom line on his failing to make the cut. Anyway, not being able to follow this order made him question whether he is cut out for service in the military. He is not afraid of the vaccine, but feels very strongly that it is his decision, and his alone, as to what medical chemicals he will put in his body. He looks at it as a human rights issue and stated that "human rights don't change based on the current thoughts of the medical "experts"". He believes it is a basic human right to decide what and what is not injected in to his body. Can't say I disagree, but it certainly is complicated.

Together we decided he will continue with ROTC into the next semester as this situation is fluid with regards to the vaccine. As is his development as a young man and his philosophies of life. So things can, and will change on both fronts. If he is removed from ROTC for failure to comply, then we'll cross that bridge when we get there. On the money front it'll be a wash as we'll either pay the school now, or pay the AF back later if he is removed. Till then, we are staying the course, which, if there are any Bogleheads here, you know that usually provides the best outcome.

Thanks again to all who took the time to comment. It is truly appreciated.
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Real question here: what does his “putting chemicals into his own body” statement mean about the other VAX required? What is his reasoning, along that line of thinking, about agreeing to all other VAX? Along this line
of thinking, why are some ok and some not? What decides for him?

Im legitimately confused. Why is this vax the one that’s a human rights issue for him (being told it’s mandatory…as are others)?

If his response is that it is still in experimental stage….then what is his line of reasoning once it isn’t? Because it’s only a matter of time before it’s not. At face value, that’s fact (not debating ‘all the testing that been done…sped up…issue).

Not trying to poke the bear. But it’s a good thought exercise for those considering a military career. Good orders must be followed. Can you do that? An open ended consideration when signing up. What about this is different from what he signed up for…if he is ok with other VAX’s.
 
Like they say the armed services is NOT a democracy. if you You want the career we are paying for do what is required unless you are medically at risk of taking the shot and then I would have assumed DODMERB would have found something to disqualify you.
 
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