Is USMA more "liberal arts" than USNA?

ALF648

ALF648

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My DS is a junior aspiring to be appointed to USNA. My typical approach when one of my kids is interested in something I know nothing about is to dive in and read everything I can, which is how I found this community.

Everything I have read about USNA points to a very heavy STEM emphasis throughout the curriculum. This was echoed at the Admissions Forum we attended this past weekend. At the same time, I am mostly through The Unforgiving Minute, by Craig Mullaney - a memoir of his experience at West Point and subsequent deployments in Afganistan. His description of the academic focus at WP is very heavily classical Liberal Arts - philosopy, history, literature. Admittedly, he graduated #2 in his class and was a Rhodes Scholar so his experience may not be typical.

Do any of you have a perspective on the academic differences between institutions?
 
You are generally correct, but both academies have a well-rounded academic program. Both are Liberal Arts schools, but more Midshipmen than Cadets will have STEM majors. This makes sense given the Navy's need for officers with a STEM education. But Midshipmen also take a heavy dose of humanities and social sciences.

USMA's Liberal Arts program does not emphasize humanities and social sciences over math, science, and engineering. US News & World Report currently ranks both USMA and USNA as tied for 4th Best Undergraduate Engineering programs. For the first two years every Cadet takes a required mix of rigorous STEM and non-STEM courses. Cadets planning to major in Philosophy take the same required Calculus and Sciences courses as those planning STEM majors. There are no watered down courses for non-majors.

Additionally, all non-STEM majors must complete a 3 course engineering sequence.
 
Assuming this is still correct for current classes, but for the class of 2018 all graduating cadets earned a Bachelor of Science degree regardless of their major, be it History/English/Sociology or Engineering/Computer Science/Applied Statistics. All cadets took engineering courses as jl123 noted, plus multiple math & science courses.

You can go to the usma.edu website and view the majors and minors offered, along with the Red Book for 2020 which shows all core classes required.
 
AF6872 said:
DD has a BS although her major was Chinese. Who thought that a Chinese major would have to pass Thermodynamics?
Click to expand...

I know nothing of Chinese, but I loved Mechanics, Heat, and Sound in Physics.
I capitalize them, because I liked them so much. Is that wrong?
 
Nowadays the answer may be yes, as others have pointed out. However traditionally West Point has always been known for its engineering curriculum, particularly civil. It was the first university in the country to have a Civil Engineering program, and in the days of McArthur and before, the top performers in a class were commissioned into the Army Corps.
 
West Point was indeed established as a military/engineering school and was the only engineering school in the U.S. until 1824. The curriculum focused on artillery and engineering.

USMA has had a liberal arts curriculum for at least 60+ years. Sometimes inaccurately considered primarily a study of humanities and social sciences, liberal arts equally includes study of mathematics and science.

Also, somewhere along the way the Army got the crazy idea of giving Division Commands to Infantrymen rather than Engineers. :eek:
 
I don't think anybody is suggesting that the math and science curriculum at USMA is lacking compared to USNA by saying that it's "more liberal arts". I think they're saying that USMA from an institutional standpoint is less STEM-centric.

I would assert that USMA is in fact "more liberal arts" and point to the major offerings of the two schools as proof.

At USNA they have the Tier system. Tier 1 is engineering majors, Tier 2 is math and science majors (the best tier I might add, still getting a good STEM major with out all of the pain of an engineering degree), and Tier 3 are the traditional "liberal arts" majors.

The only Tier 3 majors at USNA are Arabic, Chinese, English, History, & Political Science. "Quantitative Economics" as they call it now is technically a tier 2 major but it is essentially the old Econ major with like 2 more math classes. I suspect that the addition of those classes, thereby allowing the administration to move the major (which was either the first or second biggest single major on the Yard) into Tier 2 had some politics involved behind it, but that's a separate discussion.

That's a grand total of 5(maybe 6) majors.

Looking on the West Point website, they offer the following majors that would be considered "tier 3": American Politics, Defense and Strategic Studies, Economics, Arabic, Middle East Foreign Area Studies, Chinese, East Asia Regional Studies, French, Europe or Africa Regional Studies, German, Persian, Portuguese, Russian, Eurasian Area Studies, Spanish, Europe or Latin America Regional Studies, Geography, History, International Affairs, Law and Legal Studies, Management, Philosophy, Psychology, and Sociology. I'll leave out Kinesiology and "Engineering Psychology" (what?) since I'm unfamiliar with the curriculum.

That's 24 majors.

Again, this isn't a knock on West Point, if I had decided to go there I would have seriously considered some of those majors, and I think it's great that such a small school offers its cadets such a wide range of things to study. And, as others have stated, it appears everybody is getting a baseline of STEM related courses regardless of major.
 
Everyone at USNA graduates with Bachelor of Science, regardless of major. Arabic is an available major at USNA. If you majored in Arabic and graduated USNA, you be one of (I'd imagine) a handful of people to hold a Bachelor of Science in Arabic!
 
It’s all a matter of degrees. Great STEM education at both. Great liberal arts education at both. What may be throwing some people off is the use of “liberal arts.” As someone else mentioned above, the classic definition is an education that encompasses the broad spectrum of human knowledge, to include languages, literature, history, arts...and math and sciences. USMA’s and USNA’s insistence in this broad curriculum — even before incorporating one’s major — is what makes them great liberal arts institutions.

It’s not unusual these days for a engineering major from a major flagship state university or even a smaller private college to graduate without more than a couple “liberal arts” courses. And it’s not unusual for a “liberal arts” major to graduate without even one quantitative course.

That’s where USNA and USMA distinguish themselves: With the notion that an infantry officer or submarine officer should be fairly versed in Military Science...as well as Calculus, Physics and Chemistry...as well as Shakespeare, Poetry and History of Western Civilization. That’s actually much closer to the historical ideal of a learned man (or woman) than what other colleges now offer.
 
All - Thanks so much for your perspectives. I appreciate it greatly.

Similar to The Unforgiving Minute I referenced above, do any of you have suggestions for good books/memoirs of life and experiences at USNA?
 
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