IVY vs. West Point Advice - Please

jl123 said:
A civilian with the same cash to spend must earn:
Civilian Pay : $75,691
Federal tax now at 25% bracket: $14,661.50
Soc. Sec/Medicare: $5,790.36
Cash to spend Civilian: $55,239
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The federal tax owed for the civilian pay listed above would be closer to $12,074.00 once the standard deduction and exemption are calculated to reach the adjusted gross income, so the amount a civilian would need to make to compare would be closer to 70K plus. Of course to be fair you would need to adjust the income of the service member as well fro a tax amount of $3443.80

Not arguing at all that the tax breaks and other incentives totals a pretty good starting salary right out of college, but it's still not all that close to the 80K plus these articles claim when looking at the average across all O1s. They do jump up a good amount when they make O2 with 2 years TIS.

No deduction for medical and dental is a big plus, of course uniform costs add a little, plus all those little things new 2LTs seem to pay for and never get reimbursed.

Still, not a bad Gig regarding pay right out of college.

The Navy does seem to have a higher average BAH since their Naval Bases seem to be in higher rent areas, not many Navy Personnel in Enterprise Alabama.
 
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Jcleppe said:
jl123 said:
A civilian with the same cash to spend must earn:
Civilian Pay : $75,691
Federal tax now at 25% bracket: $14,661.50
Soc. Sec/Medicare: $5,790.36
Cash to spend Civilian: $55,239
Click to expand...

The federal tax owed for the civilian pay listed above would be closer to $12,074.00 once the standard deduction and exemption are calculated to reach the adjusted gross income, so the amount a civilian would need to make to compare would be closer to 70K plus. Of course to be fair you would need to adjust the income of the service member as well fro a tax amount of $3443.80

Not arguing at all that the tax breaks and other incentives totals a pretty good starting salary right out of college, but it's still not all that close to the 80K plus these articles claim when looking at the average across all O1s. They do jump up a good amount when they make O2 with 2 years TIS.

No deduction for medical and dental is a big plus, of course uniform costs add a little, plus all those little things new 2LTs seem to pay for and never get reimbursed.

Still, not a bad Gig regarding pay right out of college.

The Navy does seem to have a higher average BAH since their Naval Bases seem to be in higher rent areas, not many Navy Personnel in Enterprise Alabama.
Click to expand...
As stated, the simplified example was presented to show that the $80k was optimistic, but not unreasonable. Didn't get into specific tax situations or include free medical and dental, jump pay, flight pay, etc on the military side or 401k, bonuses, etc on the civilian side.

A key point is that military pay is the same for all O-1's, with the exception of special duty pay (BAH is self correcting). The pay of a civilian college grad has a wide range depending on major, profession, and competitiveness. A Princeton grad may choose social work and be compensated nowhere near O-1 pay. Those at the top of the class academically will be able to land jobs as investment banking analysts with a base salary of $85k and bonus of $65k - $85k (but paying rent in Manhattan and buying $1,200 suits).
 
arizonagirl13 said:
Hi All,

I've been lurking around this forum ever since my brother was accepted to West Point. Last week we found out that my brother was accepted to Princeton and Yale. He will be the first person to attend college in our family.

He has his heart set on West Point, he is the only person in our family that was born in the US and feels it is his duty to serve.

We live in the South Western US and we have not for financial reasons visited any of the schools. What is the best advice I can give him, not that he asked. My parents are pushing to attend an Ivy League School and so is his guidance counselor. (He is the only student in his school to be accepted to an Ivy League School)

Thank you!
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Please tell your brother congratulations. While income may be one way to decide a school, I would discourage anyone from attending an Academy if that is their only or significant motivation. As some of the replies have hit upon, there has to a commitment to service. If your brother wants to serve his country, then he should serious consider WP. Something else that has not been addressed is the great job our Academies and military do in bring together very different groups of people from all different races, religions and backgrounds. I don't know that there are many schools that bring together so many very different backgrounds and makes it work as well as the SA. By the very nature of the nomination process, they pull cadets/midshipmen from the entire country with very different backgrounds. Best of luck with his decision.
 
My family arrived in the US from Mexico in 1907. Military service is still a tradition since WWI. My son wanta to continue that tradition but make his own mark. If his goals pan out, he will be a 2nd generation college student and the first officer in the family after 110 years and over 50 family members serving.

I am all for family pride and what my aunt called "earning the right to call ourselves Americans."

That being said, college is a choice, and there are many other ways to serve.
 
Good advice above; attending SA in no way compromises your future long term financial prospects. Excel at SA and a masters degree from Ivy is likely in the cards anyway someday. IMHO the guidance counselor's is the first advice to ignore; not sure what agendas are always in play but I see questionable 'guidance' from a lot of these folks. [Sorry to the good ones . . .] Too many folks just have no idea what the SAs are all about and think its just a glorified enlistment. There is a reason SAs are always in the top ranked schools nationwide.
 
arizonagirl13 said:
Hi All,

I've been lurking around this forum ever since my brother was accepted to West Point. Last week we found out that my brother was accepted to Princeton and Yale. He will be the first person to attend college in our family.

He has his heart set on West Point, he is the only person in our family that was born in the US and feels it is his duty to serve.

We live in the South Western US and we have not for financial reasons visited any of the schools. What is the best advice I can give him, not that he asked. My parents are pushing to attend an Ivy League School and so is his guidance counselor. (He is the only student in his school to be accepted to an Ivy League School)

Thank you!
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A little late, but I'm currently in the exact same situation your brother was in. I was pretty set on USMA before this week, but I just received acceptance letters from Princeton and Yale 2 days ago and I'm torn. My parents and my guidance counselor are also pushing for the Ivies.

Please tell us what your brother ultimately chose and share a little about his experiences at wherever he attended!
 
Cuz said:
A little late, but I'm currently in the exact same situation your brother was in. I was pretty set on USMA before this week, but I just received acceptance letters from Princeton and Yale 2 days ago and I'm torn. My parents and my guidance counselor are also pushing for the Ivies.

Please tell us what your brother ultimately chose and share a little about his experiences at wherever he attended!
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Not my battle, but what attracts you to WP and what attracts you to the Ivies? All three are great schools, but make no mistake, your college and immediate post-graduation life will be different. Things to consider:

1. You need to ask yourself which school feels right for you. Take your parents and guidance counselor out of the equation. They don't have to live with the decision; you do. Know your motives. If prestige is your motivator, head to the Ivies. Talking to a random stranger off the street, they are more than likely going to know Princeton and Yale. Less people know about the Service Academies and the military in general. The military sometimes gets a bad rap. People will view it sometimes as the option when you have no other options and that is usually erroneous. Also, parents usually don't want to see their child sign up to go to war potentially, so there is a natural aversion.

2. Be wary of "new and shiny syndrome." When you get exposed to a new lucrative possibility, you immediately start thinking about what your life will be like if you take it. It is sort of like the honeymoon phase. Initially, the world is perfect and it's the best thing since sliced bread. After reality sets back in, you realize that you are still you, but you now have to work the pros and cons of whatever decision you made. Make sure you actually want to go somewhere instead of the idea of going somewhere.

3. A legitimate question, but how do you feel about serving in the Army? The Army doesn't stop once you graduate. You'll be suiting up for Uncle Sam for the next five years at a minimum. Are there jobs that you are interested in?

You are in a good position! This decision won't harm you at all, but it is the starting point on your adult life's trajectory. Best of luck!
 
Cuz said:
A little late, but I'm currently in the exact same situation your brother was in. I was pretty set on USMA before this week, but I just received acceptance letters from Princeton and Yale 2 days ago and I'm torn. My parents and my guidance counselor are also pushing for the Ivies.

Please tell us what your brother ultimately chose and share a little about his experiences at wherever he attended!
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I was in a similar situation (accepted to a service academy, Yale, and Princeton), and I ultimately chose one of the Ivy Leagues with an NROTC scholarship. Could not have been happier with my choice looking back. I'd recommend thinking about what matters most to you in a school. If you're looking for an Ivy League education and degree, then you're only going to get that at an Ivy League school (and some others like MIT and Stanford). If you want the West Point experience, you will only get that at West Point. Highly encourage going to both Yale and Princeton's admitted student days. Those really helped me choose between the two.

Are you thinking about doing ROTC if you choose the Ivy League?

Edit: feel free to PM me any questions as well!
 
The perspective of someone who has known, gone to grad school with, and worked alongside both Ivy Leaguers and SA grads — but all former JMOs. If you seek a globally recognized prestigious degree, hard to beat the Ivies. If you seek dedicated teachers who’ll go to almost any length to ensure you’ve mastered the material, hard to beat the SAs. If you want others to say “ooh ahh“ because of your sheepskin, hard to beat the Ivies. If you want others to say “ooh ahh” because of your experiences, hard to beat the SAs. As others here have said, you can get both by going SA for undergrad, Ivy for grad. You can’t go the other way.

Presumably, your goal is to become a commissioned officer. Neither set of colleges will do much for you if you don’t perform your duties as expected. Those in your charge — and those in charge of you — will only care that you get the job done and bring your people home safe.

There’s no mention of ROTC scholarship or any other financial aid for the Ivies. As a college educator, I can say this: There is no college degree out there — zero, none, nada, zilch — that’s worth going deep into debt for. Now, how one defines “deep” is a personal matter. But trust me, prestige doesn’t mean much when a sizable fraction of your paycheck goes toward debt service for 10+ years after college. Not even Ivy prestige.
 
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arizonagirl13 said:
Hi All,

I've been lurking around this forum ever since my brother was accepted to West Point. Last week we found out that my brother was accepted to Princeton and Yale. He will be the first person to attend college in our family.

He has his heart set on West Point, he is the only person in our family that was born in the US and feels it is his duty to serve.

We live in the South Western US and we have not for financial reasons visited any of the schools. What is the best advice I can give him, not that he asked. My parents are pushing to attend an Ivy League School and so is his guidance counselor. (He is the only student in his school to be accepted to an Ivy League School)

Thank you!
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He can go to graduate school at Princeton or Yale. Going to USMA does not close any doors, instead it opens many doors and provides a means to pay for those programs. However, he has to go with what is in his heart--and no one else can decide that for him.
 
Cuz said:
A little late, but I'm currently in the exact same situation your brother was in. I was pretty set on USMA before this week, but I just received acceptance letters from Princeton and Yale 2 days ago and I'm torn. My parents and my guidance counselor are also pushing for the Ivies.

Please tell us what your brother ultimately chose and share a little about his experiences at wherever he attended!
Click to expand...
Many candidates consider them on par. But there is a reason the service academies are designed the way they are - to build our nation's future military leaders. The academies aren't just academic institutions. The academics may be pretty evenly matched, but there is a pretty massive difference in the whole person education of West Point. You simply won't get the leadership, physical, and mental training that you go through at West Point. And if you do reasonably well at West Point and reasonably well as an officer, you'll have a pretty good shot at going to one of those name brand schools for grad school. So like others said, consider what you want.
 
I did not see the cost of paying off the debt post ivy graduation in any of the above calculations. A KP grad, living well but wisely, can have $150,000-$200,00 in liquid equity after 5 years. More if the spouse is working. Nice apartment and a Subaru. But the extended discussion of finances is bothering. It has been written many times on SAF that a parent's definition of free changes when DD/DS signs next of kin papers. Please turn to Kings Point Spotlight on SAF, Captain Robert Johnson. West Point grad, Infantry officer by choice. The vignette is 12 minutes, half about KP, half about why one SHOULD and SHOULD NOT attend a SA. The SA one is considering is irrelevant when viewing this.
 
Define your goals and know yourself.

Big brother got into Harvard and USAFA. The folks who would've been his Harvard classmates will never have any idea of what it's like to pull 9gs in a dogfight, help out BOGs in contact, or what a squadron bar is like on Friday night.

As far as I know, at no point in the history of the world has anyone thanked a stranger for attending an Ivy.

That said service and an Ivy are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
 
JohnMcLane said:
The folks who would've been his Harvard classmates will never have any idea of what it's like to pull 9gs in a dogfight, help out BOGs in contact, or what a squadron bar is like on Friday night.
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Now let’s be fair, @JohnMcLane. I’m sure there are USAFA grads who’ll never know what it’s like to take classes from a TA or sit in a classroom with more than 30 students. 😉
 
We are not a career family type but we are a long standing ad military type of family.

On our second at a SA. So proud. Truly.

If the next one came to me and said pops I have a “full ride “ to Yale and can decide after graduation if I still want to serve or I can go to a SA.

What do you think pops?

Now this my be a bit of too much time in icorps in my youth but this would be such an easy call for me. Of course it would be Yale.

But I’d never tell them to go into great debt for Yale.

A moot point in our family none were smart enough for Yale

Go Navy :)
 
My son is currently a sophomore (Yearling) at West Point. We live in Arizona. It has been an experience like none other. Both challenging and rewarding. And he has made the best of friends with his like-minded cadets. Please feel free to private message if your brother would like to talk to my son or if you or your parents have any questions.
 
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