Last year for USAFAPS?

[AHS74]

I am still waiting for hards stats for this supposed attrition, priors, athletes or others. Is there really a problem to discuss? Maybe, if there is truly a discussion to close the Prep school among the powers that be, it is purely an economic discussion.

 

[LFry94]

Question: If the decision to close the Prep School were to come down (from On High), how would those kids who get the Falcon Foundation scholarships be affected?

I'm curious about this as well. I imagine the institutions offering Falcon Foundation scholarship would go unaffected, but I don't have any grounds to base that assumption off of other than that I've only heard about the Air Force Academy Prep School being reconsidered.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I hate to break it to you, but they are ahead of the game. They just spent the last year in a relatively structured military environment. .....

Eventually the playing field levels out.

I know my DS leaned on a Prep Basic during BCT. There wasn't a question in his mind who was ahead of the game relating to the military environment. As you accurately stated, the playing field quickly leveled out.

 

[flieger83]

This has been an "interesting" discussion about a "cadet rumor."

Having lived with "cadet rumors" for literally decades, I find them interesting. I find the VAST majority of them to be false but then again...occasionally...

In this case...having never heard this mentioned in Harmon Hall up in RR (Admissions Directorate) or at any level in the AF where decisions like this are made, I'm inclined to think its an unfounded rumor.

A decision like this would take place at the Air Staff level, with the AFA involved, and probably congressional oversight because of the stated mission of the USAFAPS; namely as a conduit for enlisted personnel to enter USAFA.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Christcorp]

One last thing I'd like to mention.

Getting the "Silver Ticket" to the prep school (Golden Ticket being a direct appointment to the academy), isn't an "AUTOMATIC" appointment the next year. That too is briefed and stressed to the prep-school students. While you have a very good chance of receiving an appointment the next year; that is determined by your success at the prep-school.

Approximately 240 cadet candidates enter the prep school each summer. About 20 percent of the students are prior enlisted, 50 percent are minorities and 15 percent are women. That leaves about another 15% misc. Some may count these as the "White Guys", but remember, diversity goes way beyond race. Just like the 50% stated as minorities haven't been selected to the prep school ONLY because of their race.

Between 75 and 80 percent of all entering students earn an appointment to the Academy. To qualify for an appointment, students must successfully complete the prep school program in academics and military training, pass the Candidate Fitness Test, exhibit strong ethical character, receive the recommendation of the prep school commander, and be approved by the Academy board.

Point is; there's close to 25% of the prep school that isn't going to receive appointments. But is that really that bad? Out of a NORMAL academy class of 1250 - 1300, the graduation rate was between 1000-1100. Class of 2012 started with 1348 and 1073 graduated. That's a loss of 21%. Now; whether a large percentage of the 275 who didn't make it through the academy and graduated were from the prep-school or not; that's difficult to say.

But there's a lot of people who think the prep-school is some automatic appointment. Some also think that the majority of prep-school students are "Sub-Standard" applicants compared to those who received a direct appointment. (Many simply just won't say it). But as many here have stated, not every applicant is identical. Nor did they all have identical opportunities and options growing up. The prep school provides an opportunity to allow some with potential and characteristics and attributes that can be beneficial to the academy and the air force, the opportunity to "TRY".

I agree that this is just a rumor, and as such, probably doesn't mean much. But the prep-school provides an avenue to the academy and air force for very promising cadets and future officers and leaders. I know a LOT of officers who went to the prep-school prior to the academy. No matter HOW they got there, they are all excellent officers. And they bring experiences and perspective to the academy and air force.

 

[LFry94]

Well said CC. With that said, my original intention was to see if anyone else had any information regarding the rumor. Sorry that it turned into a mess, my apologies.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

Well said CC. With that said, my original intention was to see if anyone else had any information regarding the rumor. Sorry that it turned into a mess, my apologies.

I 2nd your "well said" statement to CC's post. No reason to apologize. It was an interesting discussion.

 

[aglages]

Between 75 and 80 percent of all entering students earn an appointment to the Academy...

Point is; there's close to 25% of the prep school that isn't going to receive appointments....

But there's a lot of people who think the prep-school is some automatic appointment.

Once again....out of the people who complete the prep-school program...what percentage of those are offered appointments? If 100% of all the graduates of the prep-school are offered appointments then it may be accurate to say that the "prep-school is some automatic appointment". Or perhaps more accurately.....75-80% of all entering prep-school students will graduate from the prep-school and ALL that are still interested will receive an appointment.

http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?p=310468&highlight=percentage#post310468

Without knowing 75% of what number was offered Appointments, it is difficult to support your contention that "Too many people think that if you attend the prep-school, that you AUTOMATICALLY receive an appointment to the academy the next year". The truth may well be that if you complete the Prep Program and want an Appointment, that you will AUTOMATICALLY receive an appointment to the academy the next year. Again, without some actual facts it is impossible to know what the actual odds are that a Prep student will receive an Appointment. I think we can all agree that the acceptance percentage is considerably better than a qualified applicant for direct admittance, and astronomically better than applicants with similar tangible stats that have not attended the Prep Program.

 

[MemberLG]

Obviously it does to some extent, seeing as LFry is neither prior enlisted nor a recruited athlete.

Nothing happens by accident, or least I hope not. I doubt USAFA prep school selection process is that much different from USMA Prep. So my question is what got LFry94 into the prep school if he is not prior enlisted nor a recruited athlete?

 

[LFry94]

Nothing happens by accident, or least I hope not. I doubt USAFA prep school selection process is that much different from USMA Prep. So my question is what got LFry94 into the prep school if he is not prior enlisted nor a recruited athlete?

I'll PM you.

 

[Buff-IP]

I was that guy.

I was that candidate that had average ACT scores, top 25% of HS class, no AP courses available. I held some leadership President positions, and lettered in a sport.

I was not competitive for an AFA slot, but I did get a USAFAPS slot, improved my ACT, added some good SAT scores (took each test 3 times as I remember).

I then got an AFA slot the next year, probably stopping someone 'more qualified' from getting a slot.

While I was there about 300 of my classmates, many 'more qualified' than me either quit or got kicked out for failing to meet required standards.

I my experience, over the last 24 years of service, the zoo has turned out many fine folks, well rounded, but not cookie cutter clones.

And these diverse grads all bring something to the table that makes the AF stronger.

 

[Christcorp]

I was that candidate that had average ACT scores, top 25% of HS class, no AP courses available. I held some leadership President positions, and lettered in a sport.

I was not competitive for an AFA slot, but I did get a USAFAPS slot, improved my ACT, added some good SAT scores (took each test 3 times as I remember).

I then got an AFA slot the next year, probably stopping someone 'more qualified' from getting a slot.

While I was there about 300 of my classmates, many 'more qualified' than me either quit or got kicked out for failing to meet required standards.

I my experience, over the last 24 years of service, the zoo has turned out many fine folks, well rounded, but not cookie cutter clones.

And these diverse grads all bring something to the table that makes the AF stronger.

+10000 EXCELLENT POST!!!

And FWIW: You may have stopped someone who may have been "MORE" qualified than you, but you didn't stop anyone who was "BETTER" qualified than you. Like you said; each cadet/grad brings their own unique experiences and perspectives to the academy and the military. And that makes it better for all. So someone else instead of you wouldn't have been BETTER for the academy. Just different. More qualified and better/best qualified are two totally different things. MORE only applies when dealing with numbers and you take out the human factor, personalities, and contributions that can't be measured on a test.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

I my experience, over the last 24 years of service, the zoo has turned out many fine folks, well rounded, but not cookie cutter clones.

And these diverse grads all bring something to the table that makes the AF stronger.

You had me until this statement ^^.

I've met a couple dozen AFA students. They come from a variety of backgrounds as designed. I don't believe I've been introduced to any former Preppies. Yet not one of the direct entry students that I've met are "cookie cutter clones"? Quite the opposite.

If the AF needs a diverse set of leaders of character that are smart but not necessarily in the top %, why do they need to pay >$400K per copy by sending them 1st to the USAFAPS? It's an honest question. If it was my checkbook and I was paying $400K per copy to develop leaders of character, I'd prefer brilliant well rounded (diverse) leaders. If I understand the Academy concept, they are looking for elite student that also can be a leader with an additional criteria that they are athletic. That's also why they have the Scholars program. They want the "best and the brightest". Correct?

You may of heard the joking expression that some people are so well rounded, that no part of them is incredibly sharp. The entire wing falls under that well rounded category. So IMHO, ROTC is going to also turn out a lot of smart leaders as well. But at $120K per copy.

Please don't take my post in the wrong context. For starters I would not have a snow balls chance in H_ll of getting into USAFA. So I strongly predict you were academically smarter and a better athlete than I. My broader point is what is wrong with leaving a standard in place. You set the bar and that's it. If you cannot pass for whatever reason, go off to college somewhere else for a year, re-take your ACT and re-apply. With your described situation above, you would have been admitted because you took advanced college classes. Some students in fact get into USAFA using this described approach. Better yet, if they could not make the grade in a college without the stress that USAFA applies, then they didn't waste their time and washout. This approach seems more logical to me. If it is learned that you churn out equal quality leaders by reducing the test scores, then let's re-set the bar lower.

 

[aseanag]

You had me until this statement ^^.

I've met a couple dozen AFA students. They come from a variety of backgrounds as designed. I don't believe I've been introduced to any former Preppies. Yet not one of the direct entry students that I've met are "cookie cutter clones"? Quite the opposite.

If the AF needs a diverse set of leaders of character that are smart but not necessarily in the top %, why do they need to pay >$400K per copy by sending them 1st to the USAFAPS? It's an honest question. If it was my checkbook and I was paying $400K per copy to develop leaders of character, I'd prefer brilliant well rounded (diverse) leaders. If I understand the Academy concept, they are looking for elite student that also can be a leader with an additional criteria that they are athletic. That's also why they have the Scholars program. They want the "best and the brightest". Correct?

You may of heard the joking expression that some people are so well rounded, that no part of them is incredibly sharp. The entire wing falls under that well rounded category. So IMHO, ROTC is going to also turn out a lot of smart leaders as well. But at $120K per copy.

Please don't take my post in the wrong context. For starters I would not have a snow balls chance in H_ll of getting into USAFA. So I strongly predict you were academically smarter and a better athlete than I. My broader point is what is wrong with leaving a standard in place. You set the bar and that's it. If you cannot pass for whatever reason, go off to college somewhere else for a year, re-take your ACT and re-apply. With your described situation above, you would have been admitted because you took advanced college classes. Some students in fact get into USAFA using this described approach. Better yet, if they could not make the grade in a college without the stress that USAFA applies, then they didn't waste their time and washout. This approach seems more logical to me. If it is learned that you churn out equal quality leaders by reducing the test scores, then let's re-set the bar lower.

Why don't they just do away with the nomination process all together. That process keeps many well qualified students out of the academies. If all the top notch students come from certain states then set the bar and that's it. But the academies are seeking diversity and offer varies ways to enter the officers corp. Academies, ROTC, OCS and varies others. Many universities have prep/assistance programs for incoming students. Many universities have to offer programs for disable students (ADA). The Prep school has produce many top notch officers and is just one of many ways to enter the USAFA or any other academy. Building a class at any university is not that cut and dry.

 

[DevilDog]

I get a kick out of these posts. When my son was accepted to USAFA, USNA, and USMA, I was told on the USNA forum that it was due to him being a minority. Never mind that he was in the top 10% of his class, 3 sport all-state athlete, varsity captain in 2 sports since sophomore year of hs, 3 sports captain senior year, NHS, 4.4 GPA etc... The fact was that his ACT scores were below 30, but were still higher than the lowest acceptable score. I was told he was accepted because he was a minority by some parents on that forum.
All he has done since he has attended USAFA is: done very well academically, granted, not a 4.0 but a 3.0+, was First Shirt his Junior year and Squadron Commander his senior year. If USAFA really accepted him due to his being a minority, thru a diversity program, then I would venture to say, they made a pretty good diversity pick. That same kid that is not a 4.0 student, is the kind of kid that men and women will follow into a conflict. Isn't that the real role of USAFA and also USAFAP?
In all sincerity, I would not have a problem with the Prep schoool being used for its intended purpose, giving the enlisted an opportunity to attend an Academy. If it means that the football, lax, baseball and other athletic teams lose their opportunity to season a kid with an extra year, I am ok with that. Everyone involved with lax knows that Navy uses NAPS to give kids an extra year.

 

[LineInTheSand]

Why don't they just do away with the nomination process all together. That process keeps many well qualified students out of the academies. If all the top notch students come from certain states then set the bar and that's it.

Ding ding!

 

[Packer]

Why don't they just do away with the nomination process all together. That process keeps many well qualified students out of the academies.

Because your congressman would have to relinquish some of his/her power.

 

[Packer]

I get a kick out of these posts. When my son was accepted to USAFA, USNA, and USMA, I was told on the USNA forum that it was due to him being a minority. Never mind that he was in the top 10% of his class, 3 sport all-state athlete, varsity captain in 2 sports since sophomore year of hs, 3 sports captain senior year, NHS, 4.4 GPA etc... The fact was that his ACT scores were below 30, but were still higher than the lowest acceptable score. I was told he was accepted because he was a minority by some parents on that forum.
All he has done since he has attended USAFA is: done very well academically, granted, not a 4.0 but a 3.0+, was First Shirt his Junior year and Squadron Commander his senior year. If USAFA really accepted him due to his being a minority, thru a diversity program, then I would venture to say, they made a pretty good diversity pick. That same kid that is not a 4.0 student, is the kind of kid that men and women will follow into a conflict. Isn't that the real role of USAFA and also USAFAP?
In all sincerity, I would not have a problem with the Prep schoool being used for its intended purpose, giving the enlisted an opportunity to attend an Academy. If it means that the football, lax, baseball and other athletic teams lose their opportunity to season a kid with an extra year, I am ok with that. Everyone involved with lax knows that Navy uses NAPS to give kids an extra year.

Your son is evidence that there are qualified and capable minorities that can succeed without hand holding. Also, I do not think he is an anomaly.

 

[MN-Dad-2016]

That same kid that is not a 4.0 student, is the kind of kid that men and women will follow into a conflict. Isn't that the real role of USAFA and also USAFAP?

My DS currently happens to have a 3.99 GPA at USAFA and is white. He mimicked your sons athleticism and HS leadership roles. Are you suggesting that men and women won't follow him into conflict (or follow others more)? Every student adds a level of diversity. Heck he is agnostic and isn't politically conservative. So for USAFA, he too is "diverse" and isn't a cookie cutter cadet. So as others have said, diversity comes in many flavors.

Heck, we visited Stanford before he decided on USAFA. That was a genuinely diverse crowd as well. Most campus are. Well.. Maybe not Duke.

I suspect those at the helm have a better handle on this topic than me. So please don't take my opinion as right. More than anything, I enjoy peoples perspective on this interesting topic. That said, when other people (including the AF) don't spend their own money, then waste occurs and poor economic decisions are made. It's a universal law. So it is good for taxpayers to question how money is spent.

Getting back to your son, if an ACT score was the sole predictor of brain power and success as a leader at USAFA, my DS may not have gotten in. In fact, he didn't make it in until the last minute. Your son got in because they predicted a successful cadet.

 

[tradecraft]

This all started from a rumor spread by a preppie now a C4C that has all the time to be on-line provide advice and flunk their K-tests