Lesbian Cadet quits West Point, citing DADT

[Mongo]

It didn't say in the article if she was #9 academically or #9 OPA. OPA includes the GPA, Physical Fitness, and Military studies/duties/etc... Suffice it to say, that she did well at west point. But I have known many who were outstanding academically, and still decided to leave the academy. It just wasn't for them. So her being #9 in her class, has no bearing on whether or not she really wants/wanted West Point. It simply means she's a really good student. Which many of them are.

I think by definition class standing includes academics, physical fitness, and professional aptitude. Her GPA would be classified simply as Academic Standing. If this is correct and her overall merit is ninth in her class, it would show me that she totally "bought" into the system. Attitude contributes much to professional aptitude and I have problems visualizing someone on the two year plan having the attitude commensurate with professional aptitude which would cause one to be ninth in their class. Therefore, I think she had a true ethical dilema.

Pima, Farleigh, and raimus, if you go back and read the preceeding seven pages of this thread, you will see my rebuttals to your comments.

 

[Luigi59]

I think by definition class standing includes academics, physical fitness, and professional aptitude. Her GPA would be classified simply as Academic Standing. If this is correct and her overall merit is ninth in her class, it would show me that she totally "bought" into the system.

Exactly.

She is the ninth-ranked Cadet in her class of 1,157 at the United States Military Academy. She has a grade point average of 3.829 out of 4.0, and has scored as high as 367 on the military's fitness test, beating the theoretical maximum score of 300 points. She has also completed U.S. Army Airborne School.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lesbian-west-point-cadet-resigns/story?id=11395858

 

[scoutpilot]

Exactly.

She is the ninth-ranked Cadet in her class of 1,157 at the United States Military Academy. She has a grade point average of 3.829 out of 4.0, and has scored as high as 367 on the military's fitness test, beating the theoretical maximum score of 300 points. She has also completed U.S. Army Airborne School.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lesbian-west-point-cadet-resigns/story?id=11395858

It's not a theoretical maximum. That's why we have the extended scale. The 300 means you've met every criteria to be judged 100% physically capable. The extended scale takes it out to 375, which is the max.

Regardless, she could at least do pushups. That alone is impressive for a female.

 

[Pima]

Mongo,

I have read your rebuttals and still I do not see how any of them gives her a pass. The DADT states, They won't ask, You don't tell. Nobody is kicking her out because she is a lebian...she is being kicked out for violating DADT. TWO different things!

BTW, have you had a sex change? How can you say you know or believe it is harder for a female than a male? I as a woman would disagree with you. As a female, it is probably easier because people don't think of women talking about sexual conquests. People socially understand that it takes a strong man to accept a woman with a career that demands she move every several yrs. and he would be forced to give up his career to follow her. Additionally the proportional ratio of women to men is much less, thus there are less people to yak about her and her private life.

 

[Mongo]

Nobody is kicking her out because she is a lebian...she is being kicked out for violating DADT. TWO different things!

No one is kicking her out period. For any reason. She resigned.

BTW, have you had a sex change? How can you say you know or believe it is harder for a female than a male?

BTW, have you ever served an extended period of time at a remote location where the ratio of young adults is about 5:1 male to female? After about two beers, these testosterone-laden males will slowly metamorphosize into God's gift to women. And there is only one reason in the world that any woman would reject them. And guess what that reason might be?

My entire premise on this subject is that to live in the close environs of a SA, one cannot be gay and keep it private without deception. And honorable people do not practice deception.

 

[LineInTheSand]

BTW, have you ever served an extended period of time at a remote location where the ratio of young adults is about 5:1 male to female? After about two beers, these testosterone-laden males will slowly metamorphosize into God's gift to women. And there is only one reason in the world that any woman would reject them. And guess what that reason might be?

I have a feeling this conversation is going to get a little bumpy after this line...

 

[AF6872]

So, in your opinion, all males stationed in remote locations are misogynistic morons even if they are an "Officer and a Gentleman". I may not have seen life as a "Box of Chocolates" but I was raised as a gentleman even if it didn't take an "Act of Congress" to make me one.

 

[Christcorp]

I guess every airman, soldier, seaman, marine, or coastie who ever was deployed or spent a year and a half on a remote tour assignment without their families also cheated on their spouses. Because it's not possible apparently to live some place for an extended period of time and not be promiscuous. I must be a really abnormal individual.

 

[Pima]

And there is only one reason in the world that any woman would reject them. And guess what that reason might be?

This is off topic, but that comment is VILE. What, because I as a woman reject a man, I am now a lesbian? OMFG. I am suppose to thank my lucky stars that a man in his drunken stupor at 1 a.m. that has not had sex for months now wants me, and to prove I am not a lesbian I should have sex with him based on your ratios?

Did it never cross your mind that many women have enough respect for themselves not to hop into bed with any man that they met that night?

Did it never cross your mind that women are not that hard up to have a man only for the reason of social acceptance?

Did it never cross your mind that she may have someone in her life?

If our DD ever followed your thought process that the only way to prove she was not a lesbian was to sleep with a stranger, I would be very disappointed in her and me as a parent! Obviously, she would have insecurity issues to ever do that.

If our DS ever followed your thought process, I would read him the RIOT ACT and let him know he is NO OFFICER IMHO! I would be down right embarrassed to say he was my son, if that is his opinion regarding women. I would also remind him, that those women he enacts his testerone beer laden personality, are people too, with emotions and families. They are someone's daughter, someone's sister, someone's gf and then I would ask how he would feel if that was his sister?

I thought you were a grown adult, with grown children...is that what you taught your boys? Did you teach them to believe that any woman was ripe for the picking just because they had XY chromosomes and she had XX?

CC,
Bullet also must be abnormal, because he always would say to me BUDWEISER doesn't make enough beer for me to do that!

Sorry, but I am fuming! What a ridiculous thing to say...not only for faithful men in committed relationships, or people who are mature enough to not need to get sex, but more importantly to me is to say if a woman rebuffs a man she is a lesbian.
What every woman is attracted to every man in the world? We just want to hook them anyway we can, and if we don't want to get that ring on our left hand by hooking them by all means, we are lesbians.

OMFG!

Mongo, all you managed to do was bolster that cliche of Navy guys have women in every port! Something, most admirable Navy men spend time trying to convince the ones they love that it is a cliche.

Also...congrats, you just frightened the bee gee gees out of every parent with a DD, because you made them feel like their DD was a piece of meat and if she was unwilling to be a piece of meat, than she will be ostracized.

WELL DONE!

SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN!

To the mods, I hope you slap Mongo with a yellow card, because that post was disgusting.

 

[usna1985]

BTW, have you ever served an extended period of time at a remote location where the ratio of young adults is about 5:1 male to female? After about two beers, these testosterone-laden males will slowly metamorphosize into God's gift to women. And there is only one reason in the world that any woman would reject them. And guess what that reason might be?

Actually, I have. Spent 6 mos deployed to a remote location. And the ratio was 65:1. I was the "1", BTW.

Without getting too specific here, let's just say I was fully able to control myself and it had nothing to do with the "reason" you suggest. Yes, men can slowly metamorphosize into whatever. They may throw themselves at women -- especially when they're drunk. But there are other reasons a woman would reject their advances. Professionalism is one. Personal "integrity" is another.

If the men can't control themselves, the women have to do it. You are right that some of both genders can't, but many can -- and it has nothing to do with being gay or lesbian.

And now, let's either return to the original topic or move on . . .

 

[AF6872]

LITS:

Bumpy will not be the word for this direction. VILE is the correct word and PIMA you are right on.

 

[Pima]

Let''s get this back on track.

Here is my question, if DADT was repealed last yr, would she have stayed? Can anyone say that she might have also had ulterior motives, such as, she realized she did not want to be in the military?

Can anyone say they know for a fact that she truly wanted a military career, or that after 2 yrs of being at USMA, she decided that she did not want to spend 7 more yrs of her life in the military.

I am not saying she isn't a lesbian. I am just questioning if the reality of her next 7 yrs serving was why she pulled the lever, and being a lesbian gave her that ability.

 

[Mongo]

Okay, before this gets out of hand, I will spell it out entirely, not omitting any of what I thought were obvious steps. My statement was in no way disrespectful to women. I think in nature the male of the species usually is the one with the bright plumage. This is for a reason. I am sure that none of us personally would be so crass as to act in such a manner. However, there are young adult males, who, after strutting their finest plumage, whose ego will not handle rejection. All it takes is one. Since they are perfect in every way, there is only one possible reason, in their mind only and nowhere else, that a female could reject them. They start a rumor. The rumor becomes fact. And suddenly a very proper professional upright young female is having to defend her virtue. Through entirely no fault of her own. Only because she did not want to date a particular guy. It happens. Here is what Cadet Miller herself has to say about it:

The “normal people” to whom my friend was referring was a classmate that lived down the hall from my barracks room. He would stop by my room with a Gatorade bottle to spit his dip juice into, talk about how much he benched pressed that day, and tell stories in an attempt to impress me with his testosterone-driven activities. Predictably, I was less than receptive.

But according to him, my sexuality must have been the only reason I didn’t fall head over heels. And the fact that his busted ego could have gotten me thrown out of the military (a term known as “lesbian baiting”) is a tad unfair. Thank you, DADT, for once again being a social policy failure.

This is the atmosphere that causes a person of honor to have trouble serving in the DADT environment.

usna1985, I probably heard a dozen XO screenings/COs masts developing from exactly this same scenario in two years at one of the NAFs you perhaps deployed to.

 

[AF6872]

So "these testosterone-laden males"with the "bright plumage" who used to be universal now become a one in a million jerk. If the rumor spread by a rejected suitor is passed on among the current permanent party and somehow becomes fact without proof is a sad commentary on the status of our current Officer Corps. "Bright Plumage" works great for Birds but I do admit Dress Whites with Gold Wings works better than four stripes. They can see into your wallet like Superman.

 

[Mongo]

So "these testosterone-laden males"with the "bright plumage" who used to be universal now become a one in a million jerk. If the rumor spread by a rejected suitor is passed on among the current permanent party and somehow becomes fact without proof is a sad commentary on the status of our current Officer Corps. "Bright Plumage" works great for Birds but I do admit Dress Whites with Gold Wings works about as well.

I never meant to imply that it was either universal or one in a million. However, you seem to have correctly grasped the fact that it does only take one to put someone in a situation where their honor and integrity would be at stake.

And remember, they aren't officers yet. That is what the four years of training is for.

 

[Pima]

Back on track.

Mongo let's go with Cadet Miller's point of “lesbian baiting”.

In this scenario, she is acknowledging she knew she was a lesbian and could not live this lifestyle.

I get it. Reality and theory rarely match, especially from an 18 yo perspective.

Now, here's my argument of why my heart is not breaking for her. She knew that she was a lesbian, but accepted to live in the confines of DADT. She using the escape clause by TELLING.

Take the 18 yo who pounds his chest and says I am enlisting because I want to defend this country...AND I can't wait to go to Iraq or Afghanistan to prove it! Does he get to say 12 months later that he can't live within the DOD confines regarding his deployment? Where is his escape clause like Cadet Miller's?

Both signed up knowing that they will have to make sacrifices regarding their own lives, but one,and unfortunately a potential leader at the cost of 100K's of thousands of dollars got to bail free in clear with a no harm no foul. The other at the exact same age could spend time making big rocks into little rocks.

He was like her, he didn't realize the hardship either!

BTW, now let's address some other points in your post

I am sure that none of us personally would be so crass as to act in such a manner. However, there are young adult males, who, after strutting their finest plumage, whose ego will not handle rejection

1. Weren't you an officer? So, when you posted about 5:1 ratio and testosterone males...wouldn't it have been your duty to call them out each and every time?

If you did, shouldn't that stop them? Are you saying that the lower ranking personnel ignored you?

Sorry, but I am getting the feeling you are giving them a loop hole to get out of their dirt, while still trying to pat the victims hand, with the statement of boys will be boys.

As a BGO, maybe you should suggest a course on warning signs regarding homosexual antagonism.

2. Plumage?

Are you kidding me? I don't care if they are 14 or 64, an officer who knows that they act this way and does
not mentor them is just as guilty! This is why the cliche of the good old boy system exists!

3. This was a cadet.

So let's play string theory, you as a BGO, missed the mark when supporting a candidate with these plumage issues.

This is not an AD member, it is a cadet, where the process is very rigorous. You are now saying the male cadets had their "plumage" and were immature. Your story is changing...last time I checked cadets are not allowed to imbibe, nor are they allowed to have sex on campus. How is it their life plays into the equation of months without sex, 5:1 ratio, and beer!

And there is only one reason in the world that any woman would reject them. And guess what that reason might be?

YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE!

4. You still are hurting the SA/military image for parents of girls with the talk of plumage and "lesbian baiting". By your account, I would turn to our DD and tell her DON'T DO IT! You make it seem that hormones have run amuck within the military and ever she refuses to have sex she will be a lesbian.

I am now officially done with you Mongo, because every time you post you show your own personal condescension. I have seen your insensitivity regarding GIB remarks (comical since you were a helo), and now your remarks about women are just too much. Plumage...really? Tell me when did our military become a hormonal issue? I am thankful that my son will be serving with people like Scout, Lits, AF6872, Raimius, Hornet, CC's son, Luigi's son, and Aglages's children, and not with you.

 

[Christcorp]

You are correct that it's NOT universal, Nor a 1 in a million. The normal situation is that guys get rejected by girls all the time. And most of the time, when it happens, guys want to forget about it as soon as possible. Sorry Mongo, but the more you type, the less you appear to know. Then again, you're so sure that there's a totally different world that Navy Cadets and active duty officers live in, compared to the rest of the military, that maybe it is that way in the Navy. Or; maybe because it's been more that 40 years since you were at the academy and a young officer, you "THINK" you know how the real world operates. Either way, you are way off base.

Back on target: I don't think it really matters that this person is leaving the academy. There are many different motives that we can all speculate on her real decision to leave. I have mine, and many of you have different speculations. What does matter, is how this is going to affect West Point, politics, and our social norms. There are proper ways to change things you don't like in the military. This individual does not appear to be the type that likes "Conforming". Yes, she was ranked high in her class. Sorry, but that doesn't impress me to mean that she and the military were compatible with each other. The academy isn't a bell curve. You don't have to have 2.0 gpa students in the class. It is possible for everyone to be a 4.0. (Unlikely, but possible). Point being: The average gpa of an incoming cadet is 3.86 (At least in the air force). That implies there are a lot of smart individuals at the academy. It is not unreasonable for her to have a 3.8Xgpa and maintain physical fitness and military studies.

Even if through future articles I change my opinion of the ex-cadet; I will always maintain that she was an opportunist who is using this situation for some form of publicity, attention, and notoriety. When an ROTC student, doing parachute training at the air force academy, has an accident, and you literally can't find ANYTHING in the news about any of the details; then you hear subjects like this, where the article specifically says certain information was "Leaked" to the press, you know darn well that this wasn't accidental. Even the 2nd article mentions that they suspect this cadet of having a pen-name on facebook. If this individual truly cared(s) about West Point and the military, she would/could have handled her exit differently. Mongo speaks of this extreme high level of honor and integrity, and that she couldn't handle lying to her fellow cadets; yet the article mentions her saying how cruel her classmates are and how she endured sexual harassment. Sorry, but I don't see much honor in this person.

 

[scoutpilot]

I am now officially done with you Mongo, because every time you post you show your own personal condescension. I have seen your insensitivity regarding GIB remarks (comical since you were a helo), and now your remarks about women are just too much. Plumage...really? Tell me when did our military become a hormonal issue? I am thankful that my son will be serving with people like Scout, Lits, AF6872, Raimius, Hornet, CC's son, Luigi's son, and Aglages's children, and not with you.

Just so I'm clear, he's a lesser aviator than a fixed-wing backseater because he's a rotary wing pilot?

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Very interesting thread on female life at West Point. It's always great to hear folks talk about what it's like when they have never even met someone who has walked a baby step in a female cadet's shoes.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

Tell me when did our military become a hormonal issue? I am thankful that my son will be serving with people like Scout, Lits, AF6872, Raimius, Hornet, CC's son, Luigi's son, and Aglages's children, and not with you.

Just so I am clear...... you want your son to serve only with males?