Letter prompts base to change flight suit rules

[Christcorp]

Just curious. What did Pima write that isn't correct? What does she need to "Know" that she doesn't know currently; IYO?

Not all pilots went to the academy. Not all pilots got a "Free" education. The commitment is 10-11 years. Someone separating today, if they went to the academy, would have entered in 1997; class of 2001. The only thing she wrote that is off is that she thought you were a 2007 grad instead of the 2004 grad that you are.

 

[scoutpilot]

Just curious. What did Pima write that isn't correct? What does she need to "Know" that she doesn't know currently; IYO?

You already mentioned part it. When she starts spouting off about "come back to us when you PCS 2 times in 6 years" she ought to...

1) know that for a junior officer in the Army, PCSing every 3 years is the best case scenario. If you get 3 you're lucky (see: 5 PCS's in 8 years). So trying to throw that 2 in 6 years down as some measure of hardship is foolish when you don't know the way personnel works in other services.

2) know that the hardship scenario of moving a wife that she described would be an improbement for those who've spent literally years apart from their spouse.

She also ought know the person she's lecturing about time owed to the service. Why she assumed I was an '07 grad, I have no idea, but having showed up at the Academy 12 years ago next week myself her bolded "shocker" of a USAFA grad showing up 15 years ago doesn't really ruffle many feathers on my end, nor the fact they'd be 33-34 when they get out.

So sure, Pima, I'll "come back to [you]" after 2 PCS's in 6 years. When I slow down to that pace, I'll be sure to let you know. Where should I look for you? I assume you'll still be up on your cross?

Not all pilots went to the academy. Not all pilots got a "Free" education. The commitment is 10-11 years. Someone separating today, if they went to the academy, would have entered in 1997; class of 2001.

Great point! I'm sure Bullet can clarify that none of the folks uttering those complaints were academy grads...

 

[Bullet]

I really don't think we need to go down a "whose got the tougher life in the military" here. My interpretation of what Pima was saying (and I'm not at home to ask her to clarify or see if I'm interpretting things correctly) is that she's asking how YOU, Scout, will feel when its time to move again, and the wife isn't too happy that once again her doctor's career, which has started to get her noticed for higher positions, has to start from the bottom, with crappy shifts and little seniority amongst her peers.

Maybe it won't happen to your wife. I'm betting she'll do fine. Maybe it won't happen to others as well. But there are plenty that have to deal with a family or spouse that eventually gets a little tired of the "everyone let's move, again, and again, and AGAIN!" and all that is associated with it. Or the fact that their spouse has to be in a different state for most of their careers.

Just another factor in the all the elements that causes dis-satification and a desire to hang it up when the commitment is met. The flight suit issue is an annoyance, the lack of trust in leadership's judgement a bigger one, and the whole "sacrificing for Uncle Sam" probably the biggest. They all add up....

But l advice us all to avoid any "well, I had it tougher" arguements; they get us all no where, since know one is right and we all have different standards on what "tough" is.....

 

[Bullet]

Great point! I'm sure Bullet can clarify that none of the folks uttering those complaints were academy grads...

What in Sam Hill does one's commissioning source have anything to do with one's level of happiness over their current quality of life and job satisfaction?

But, if you can assist, I can clarify. I don't think the Academy grads I talked to were grumbling. No, they just instead just walked up to their desk and pulled out a calendar clearly marked with Red "X"s for each day that has past, and a big Red Circle on the date they finally can legally seperate.

That, and they asked me to check their resumes for them.....

 

[Pima]

Oh, I forgot, you've had it tougher than EVERYONE. Thanks for the reminder. LOL @ 2 times in 6 years.

I'm an '04 grad. This is my 3rd operational assignment after 5 PCSes in 8 years. My wife and I have been together since 2006. We've only lived in the same STATE for 2.5 years of that. I'm 31 next month and my commitment goes through 2015.

Come back to me when you actually know what you're talking about.

I'M BACK!

I will play your game, but at least admit to this forum your post of getting free college was false!

Spade calling a spade! You were wrong with that fact. ROTC and OTS do not get free educations. DS was commissioned 3 weeks ago as an AFROTC cadet. Only 10% in his det were scholarship. 50% of his class got rated. COME BACK TO ME WHEN YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

As far as I am concerned, you are 31, and I moved 11 times in 20 yrs., I don't need to prove squat to you. I packed and unpacked 250K lbs. You state you have been with your wife since 06, and moved 5 times, but at the current post for 2.5 yrs aka 08, so tell me how many moves has she made, especially since she is a doc...I am betting 08 is her 1st true move. I moved 4 weeks after our wedding, moved 10 weeks later, moved 6 months later (overseas), moved 18 months later. moved 15 month later (back stateside), moved 2 yrs later for 6 months, moved to AK
7 Moves before my 7th wedding anniversary. I think my 7 moves in 7 yrs trumps your 5 in 8 yrs...plus I did it either pregnant or with kids...that means finding a home and a school.

If you still want to do the peeing contest. I moved to NC for my 10th anniversary. KS for my 12th. VA for my 13th. NC for 17th. VA for my 19th. Our kids attended no less than 8 public schools from K-12. I give you respect as an AD member, give me respect as a spouse who endured it for 20 yrs! You have no kids crying, have yet to figure out how to transport your puppy, let alone live overseas. Give me the respect of someone who has endured all of those things.

Seriously, you want to beat up on me? You don't get for many military members as Bullet stated it is/was ""Just one more reason". I loved the AF life and I have no regrets, but trust me your wife as a DOC may not be as willing to go to Germany if her career takes a hit. She may decide not to go to CGSC.

One More Reason. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why on earth do you care if they wear a flight suit M-F? Is it going to be a factor in your mission if you are in the Army. Navy. Coast Guard or Marines?

Seriously why do you care what they wear?

 

[scoutpilot]

I'M BACK!

I will play your game, but at least admit to this forum your post of getting free college was false!

Spade calling a spade! You were wrong with that fact. ROTC and OTS do not get free educations. DS was commissioned 3 weeks ago as an AFROTC cadet. Only 10% in his det were scholarship. 50% of his class got rated. COME BACK TO ME WHEN YOU ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

As far as I am concerned, you are 31, and I moved 11 times in 20 yrs., I don't need to prove squat to you. I packed and unpacked 250K lbs. You state you have been with your wife since 06, and moved 5 times, but at the current post for 2.5 yrs aka 08, so tell me how many moves has she made, especially since she is a doc...I am betting 08 is her 1st true move. I moved 4 weeks after our wedding, moved 10 weeks later, moved 6 months later (overseas), moved 18 months later. moved 15 month later (back stateside), moved 2 yrs later for 6 months, moved to AK
7 Moves before my 7th wedding anniversary. I think my 7 moves in 7 yrs trumps your 5 in 8 yrs...plus I did it either pregnant or with kids...that means finding a home and a school.

If you still want to do the peeing contest. I moved to NC for my 10th anniversary. KS for my 12th. VA for my 13th. NC for 17th. VA for my 19th. Our kids attended no less than 8 public schools from K-12. I give you respect as an AD member, give me respect as a spouse who endured it for 20 yrs! You have no kids crying, have yet to figure out how to transport your puppy, let alone live overseas. Give me the respect of someone who has endured all of those things.

Seriously, you want to beat up on me? You don't get for many military members as Bullet stated it is/was ""Just one more reason". I loved the AF life and I have no regrets, but trust me your wife as a DOC may not be as willing to go to Germany if her career takes a hit. She may decide not to go to CGSC.

One More Reason. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why on earth do you care if they wear a flight suit M-F? Is it going to be a factor in your mission if you are in the Army. Navy. Coast Guard or Marines?

Seriously why do you care what they wear?

No, it wasn't false at all. True or false: there are Academy Grads flying jets? True. True or false: there are full-scholarship ROTC cadets who commission and fly jets? True.

Hence I asked Bullet to clarify that not a single academy grad was griping (and I should have had him clarify that not a single ROTC scholarship grad was griping), because there are plenty out there. Don't act like they don't exist. In large numbers.

Also, since when does 12 minus 2.5 = 8?

I give you all the respect you earned as a spouse. Just take off Bullet's rank and stop trying to tell those of us in the thick of it how you think things work.

 

[Pima]

Scout that was not how I perceived your post.

Your post stated verbatim

Sorry to hear that getting paid to fly the world's most advanced airframes after getting free college doesn't quite overcome the indignity of not getting to wear a flightsuit at all times

In essence your post assumed/implied every pilot gets a free education, when reality is 50% are not AFA or scholarship. AFROTC has over 5K+ applicants per year, many are AFA candidates. LY @900 received scholarships. DS had 26 commission and only 3 or so were scholarship, but 13 out of the 26 got rated.

I am willing to accept your post was misinterpreted by other members. However, I would like you to do the same.

I think every poster that has never served one minute in the military respects everyone that has served. I believe that you would defend your wife if she was on this forum for her perspective as a spouse. That's all anyone is asking from you.

Acknowledgement!

Your position that spouses have no impact regarding an AD member scares me.

 

[Packer]

You folks public pissing match is rather amusing. Keep it up.

 

[scoutpilot]

Your position that spouses have no impact regarding an AD member scares me.

I don't recall saying or insinuating that that is my position at all.

I did specify grads fly jets though, because if I was a 130 pilot I'd get out, too

 

[Pima]

Scout.

Please clarify your position.

Quote:
I did specify grads fly jets though, because if I was a 130 pilot I'd get out, too

Before I address your post I want you to know you made me LMAO!
UMMM you do realize to an AF pilot that comment was the most offensive comment anyone could give?

Quote:
Your position that spouses have no impact regarding an AD member scares me.
I don't recall saying or insinuating that that is my position at all.

Now from the spouse perspective you have implied, insinuated and alluded to every member that is not AD our opinions do not matter, mainly due to the fact that we are DEPENDENTS and not ACTIVE DUTY.

I will accept that you never recall saying or insinuating that perception as long as you accept that my perception as a poster I feel you are demeaning to spouses.

 

[bruno]

ALRIGHT _ NO MORE on Dependants. This thread has exhausted it's utility- time to sit down and stop posting unless you actually have some brilliant original thought on the wear of a flight suit.

If you can't read betweeen the lines- then I will be happy to spell out plainly- The thread needs to be dead.

 

[usnabgo08]

I personally am so sick and tired of seeing Cammies, Utilities, Flight Suits, BDU’s or whatever they are called being worn as a standard duty uniform. They look terrible, look unprofessional and are just plain sloppy!

tpg, I agree.

Not to specifically point out the Army, but why is a Soldier wearing ACUs during the pre-game ceremonies of the NBA Basketball Finals (he was being honored for his service), which is being broadcasted around the U.S.?

Similarly, in the same exact situation three nights ago, a Marine, who just returned from deployment that same day was wearing his Dress Blues.

I'm not sure what each services' protocol is, but unless you are in a war zone or area involved where the uniform is likely to get soiled, it seems out of place to wear ACUs/Cammies/BDUs/NWUs/MARPAT/etc when attending a high visible basketball game.

 

[AF6872]

They are professionals at what they do. Dress like it and be proud of the Uniform. JMHO. Think the Marines have a different Uniform Code for public appearance and travel?

 

[scoutpilot]

tpg, I agree.

Not to specifically point out the Army, but why is a Soldier wearing ACUs during the pre-game ceremonies of the NBA Basketball Finals (he was being honored for his service), which is being broadcasted around the U.S.?

Similarly, in the same exact situation three nights ago, a Marine, who just returned from deployment that same day was wearing his Dress Blues.

I'm not sure what each services' protocol is, but unless you are in a war zone or area involved where the uniform is likely to get soiled, it seems out of place to wear ACUs/Cammies/BDUs/NWUs/MARPAT/etc when attending a high visible basketball game.

Honestly? Because he can get away with it. The Army's senior NCO and officer leaders have let standards get flushed down the toilet, and raised a generation of young NCOs and officers who don't know what right looks like, and if they do, the system has stripped them of the muscle to get in a soldier's ass for being ate up. Marines trip over one another rushing to correct an ate up Marine. In the Army, you're a lone ranger if you're making corrections.

As much as I poke at them for some of their backward thinking and bravado, the Marines do standards and discipline much better than the other services, and that translates to pride.

Underage Marines get to drink on the USMC birthday. The average soldier cannot even tell you the Army birthday. Part of it is the difference between a corps and an army. Mostly it's about the people we raise.

 

[Bullet]

Good Gosh, another thread with pages of squat!

Ok, I have an opinion on the topic of wearing a flight suit. I think the Colonel is right! I think it is time EVERY member of the Armed Services remember that they A) volunteered and B) they are professional Service Members. So they should both act and dresses like it.

I personally am so sick and tired of seeing Cammies, Utilities, Flight Suits, BDU’s or whatever they are called being worn as a standard duty uniform. They look terrible, look unprofessional and are just plain sloppy!

The argument of we are a (Insert service here) at war just don't cut it with me.

This every day is a casual Friday look is ridiculous. Each prescribed uniform has a purpose. It is about time each of the services got back to using each for their intended purpose!

As for the General in the photo wearing a flight suit….I would bet he understands when and where he should wear it. Generals usually do. However, if they do not there is also someone who will remind them, I know, I have done it!

tpg, if I understand your sentiment correctly, you think the everyday uniform for anyone in the service should be the Class As or Class Bs?

Maybe its just me, but I'd rather see them in those Utilities, flight suits, or cammies you see as sloppy and unprofessional. I see them as a very succinct visual display that the US military's purpose IS to fight, not look like we belong in some board room or the cubicles of some Fortune 500 company. I've seen the public's reaction at events like you mention above, televised as well, to BOTH squadron mates in flight suits, and to guys in their short sleeve blues. The public wanted their autographs when in flight suits (mostly because they just did the fly-over of the event) and thanked them profusely for their service. The guys in short sleeve blues got asked for directions, or if they could park someone's car for them. Guess they didn't recognize the wings on the guys' chests.

Me? I prefer the look of the Professional Warrior over the look of the Corporate Lawyer. To each his own, I guess.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that some out of shape slob in EITHER looks simply disgusting and foolish, no matter what uniform he is wearing.

As to the General in the photo? I'm POSITIVE he knows which time is appropriate to wear his flight suit, and which time isn't. And if you feel he's doing so when he isn't, I double-dog dare you to correct him on the spot!

 

[Bullet]

I will very publicly state unequivocally that the Marines in their dress uniform look Bad-A$$! If only every other dress uniform for the other services looked as sharp, then perhaps I wouldn't be so disinclined to their wear in public.

 

[scoutpilot]

I will very publicly state unequivocally that the Marines in their dress uniform look Bad-A$$! If only every other dress uniform for the other services looked as sharp, then perhaps I wouldn't be so disinclined to their wear in public.

I happen to be quite proud of this uniform.

 

[goaliedad]

Just a humble parent's thoughts on dress code and what is REALLY important (IMHO) about appearances.

Having spent a large part of my career in a suit and tie company that evolved through casual Fridays to "business casual" 5 days a week, and then moving onto shops that are very casual (jeans and non-collared shirts), I can say that no matter what people wear, you can always tell the true professionals by how they carry themselves regardless of what they wear.

That being said, I have observed that a large percentage of people who I knew in my days of "suit and tie" were more likely to adapt to casual posture and demeanor when dressed casually in a casual environment. To that end, implementing a more formal dress code will improve the professional demeanor of those who tend to follow the cues of the herd.

Taking this to the military, one might expect that dressing in ACUs, flight suits, etc. might encourage working postures and behaviors that would cue others to behave similarly. This would be true if the mentality is to respect the suit not the person wearing the suit. I hope our military is more about respecting the leader than the rank. If leadership is about how you carry yourself, uniform should be relatively unimportant in maintaining good order. If leadership is about how you look doing your job, then dress uniform is our only hope for preserving the appearance of professionalism.

I never really considered the ACU/flight suit issue before as the only times I've seen my daughter in uniform (ACUs), she carried herself (squared corners, etc) in a professional manner that I never see in civilian wear. And that was coming to visit me at my office (not a public building) after volunteering at the local State U ROTC office (not even her own brigade) last summer. It told me that she takes her "job" seriously and she is becoming a professional.

 

[NavyHoops]

We all have our opinions on this one and it is great that we all are passionate about our services. We are all right in our own views and there is nothing wrong with that. I had a unique experience in the Marine Corps as a non-flying type that served in a non-flying unit on the aviation side of the house. We wore cammies everyday, unless another uniform was prescribed for the day. We wore coveralls for the really dirty jobs, but never wore those anywhere except in the squadron. The General of the base at the time issued a very similiar policy as to the one referenced here. Unless a pilot was to be engaged in flying activities that day, they did not wear a flight suit. The reasoning for that was that the prescribed uniform of the day was cammies, and flight suits, overalls, maintanence uniforms, etc were for specific duties and to be used in the performance of those duties. He also stated that the Wings of Gold were what designated them as a pilot, not a flight suit. He also wanted to remind all Marines, they were Marines first and foremost, not pilots, air crew, NFOs, maintainers, etc. We also have a different mind set in the Marine Corps; everyone is there to support the Marine on the ground. It takes all Marines to accomplish the mission, yes we have our own rivalary about each MOS, but in the end we all recognize it takes everyone to accomplish the mission. This is engrained in us from day one. Just like every Marine of mine was required to have PT gear with them everyday, if a Marine needed one of these uniforms to complete their work they were required to have that with them also. Not really complicated, I mean heck we ask 20 something year old Lts(and even younger NCOs) to make life and death decisions, we can't entrust our Marines they will be somewhere with the appropriate uniform at the right time?

I also had the opportunity to serve as the OIC of a section in the Combined Air Operations Center. At one point I was the only Marine in the CAOC (I usually got asked what country I was from, which was rather amusing, especially since above my pocket it said U.S. Marines). I had members from every Service and even a few British Airmen in my section. I prescribed cammies as the uniform to create some uniformity and team sense in our section. I mixed our crews up and after a few weeks, the section really started to enjoy working with one another. We even PT'd together (the look on all my Airman's faces when a Marine says we will do PT is rather amusing). We actually did do some flight operations and when they were performing those duties they wore flight suits.

I guess the part that I don't understand is the wing part. Most of my friends are pilots and their goal was to earn their wings (even my friends who are SWOs or Submariners, their whole goal is to wear the SWO pin or dolphins and that is what is coveted). Why are the wings not the coveted part, but the flight suit? Maybe I am wrong and just don't see that. I know half the Air Force wears wings (and to be honest I can never tell them apart), why is that not the part that a pilot is proud to show off, but the flight suit?

 

[DevilDog]

I happen to be quite proud of this uniform.

I am partial to the Dress Blue. To each their own. The rest of this post was kind of mean so I deleted it.